EPTWhen I said that I don't think FOS is useful, I thought I made it clear that I thought voting WAS useful (which is why I have done it.) but that I don't see what FOS'ing adds above voting - if you think someone is acting scummy, it is not bad play to vote for them, rather than FOS - if you want to ask questions of someone, you don't need this meaningless phrase to do it. So I would like to see people expressing their suspicions with votes not FOS's.
Newbie Mini Mafia XXVII - Page 10
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KillingTime
France101 Posts
When I said that I don't think FOS is useful, I thought I made it clear that I thought voting WAS useful (which is why I have done it.) but that I don't see what FOS'ing adds above voting - if you think someone is acting scummy, it is not bad play to vote for them, rather than FOS - if you want to ask questions of someone, you don't need this meaningless phrase to do it. So I would like to see people expressing their suspicions with votes not FOS's. | ||
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drazak
United States479 Posts
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rethos
Romania103 Posts
On September 19 2012 04:20 thrawn2112 wrote: OK so kush do you think I'm scum? Do you have reasons for that or is it just a shitty halfway into D1 association case? I went through debear's filter and here's what I've got: People are jumping on him for defending me, under the reasoning that either A) he's mafia trying to make safe posts or B) he and I are both mafia and he's trying to defend me. B is the vibe I'm getting from kush and sonic. But what about option C) that he's town and talking about something that everyone else is talking about? Obviously I say B is dumb excpet from the perspective of sonic who had been accusing me most of the game, but I don't see any indicator that option A or option C is more likely. To me it looks like the people who are accusing him are doing so because they already thought I looked scummy, or because they are scum themselves pushing a mislynch. The thing in debear's filter I disagreed with was his agreement that kush is sk. I can see how it would be possible but I don't see any reason to think it's likely, especially since we don't even yet know if there's a sk or not. Debears what are your thoughts on kush beyond what you already said? In summary: His defense of me doesn't look more town-motivated or mafia-motivated, so I'm going with a null read on the whole "defending thrawn" situation. Pre Edit: just saw that he posted some stuff about rethos, so my current read on him is that he's done nothing that I see as scummy and he has participated in discussion and brought some original ideas into the mix. So overall I'm saying he's looking town. His defense of me was a little to lengthy and aggressive to be normal but I don't know why he'd do that as town or mafia. Until now thrawn2112 strikes me as a player that is willing to go after suspicious stuff (because of the whole SDM discussion). It seems to me though that debears's post does not seem suspicious to him. He seems actually biased imo which makes me think that there is some sort of alliance there. Also interesting is to point out stuff like On September 19 2012 04:20 thrawn2112 wrote: The thing in debear's filter I disagreed with was his agreement that kush is sk. I can see how it would be possible but I don't see any reason to think it's likely, especially since we don't even yet know if there's a sk or not. Debears what are your thoughts on kush beyond what you already said? On September 19 2012 04:20 thrawn2112 wrote: About debears: I'll read his filter and point out what I think about it, but for now the thing that struck me as odd was the line: On September 18 2012 22:42 debears wrote:I think thrawn is town. Anyone with evidence pointing otherwise, please present. I don't see why he is making it such a huge goal for town to establish if I am 100% town or not. Seems a little too off topic from the whole scumhunting thing. He is pointing out minor stuff that he does not agree with to make it look like he is not biased. Little nitpicky stuff. He is also not expanding on the second point in his post. That seems to be his primary concern when he started looking into it. Why doesn't he explain what has come of that concern, did it get solved? How? If not why didn't he mention it in his second post as well to give a clear and full reading. Right now it seems that he is doing his best to defend him while still being able to back out if something goes wrong. @thrawn2112 what conclusion have you achieved regarding the last quote? ##FOS Debears ##FOS thrawn2112 | ||
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rethos
Romania103 Posts
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
This whole KillingTime versus debears is interesting though. I believe at most one of them is mafia. I'm really split on this one though. On the one hand, KillingTime is a little here nor there in my mind. I had been leaning towards him as scum, up until I realized he was the only other person who had voted, and in fact was the only one who advocated votes over FoSing on day one. Both of which I think are strong town moves. FoSing is really the equivalent of doing sweet fuck all. You may as well just say someone is suspicious, but that you can't be bothered to vote for them. Voting has power, and you don't necessarily vote to lynch, you can vote just to pressure. At the same time, debears isn't really the most suspicious person to me, his defense of Thrawn could be scummy, or it might not be. It was weird, but not a strong tell either way in my opinion. However, there is getting to be a large web of people involved with debears either way. ##unvote Kushm4sta ##vote debears I do however think that it will be a distraction until it is resolved. THere's a good chance he flips scum, and that would reflect poorly on Thrawn, who up until this point I've been relatively sure he was town. I'm not convinced he's mafia, but I'm suspicious enough of him I'd like to get to the point where we can force a claim. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On September 19 2012 04:54 rethos wrote: Debears post seems suspicious for reasons already mentioned. The real interesting part (for me) comes after this post: Until now thrawn2112 strikes me as a player that is willing to go after suspicious stuff (because of the whole SDM discussion). It seems to me though that debears's post does not seem suspicious to him. He seems actually biased imo which makes me think that there is some sort of alliance there. Also interesting is to point out stuff like He is pointing out minor stuff that he does not agree with to make it look like he is not biased. Little nitpicky stuff. He is also not expanding on the second point in his post. That seems to be his primary concern when he started looking into it. Why doesn't he explain what has come of that concern, did it get solved? How? If not why didn't he mention it in his second post as well to give a clear and full reading. Right now it seems that he is doing his best to defend him while still being able to back out if something goes wrong. @thrawn2112 what conclusion have you achieved regarding the last quote? ##FOS Debears ##FOS thrawn2112 It's odd but not odd enough to influence my read on him in either direction. Basically it this point it tells me nothing other than that it tells me nothing. Still going with town. You say I'm a player who is willing to go after suspicious stuff... well yeah, that's the point of the game. But then when I give a town read, all the sudden that automatically makes myself and that player a team? That's your prerogative but it's an extremely weak case. Is there anything other than that about me which you find suspicious? Because if not then that's a very weak FOS. | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
On September 19 2012 03:30 debears wrote: Sonic, First, you say i had a "hardcore defense" and "strong town read" of thrawn. I never used the word strong. "I think thrawn is town". It is not I know thrawn is town or thrawn is confirmed town. I'm "taking a shot in the dark" for now and and saying he is town to me. Also, most of my "defense" of him was trying to explain to you the possible logic behind his post. You said it was a "breakdown of logic" and that you found it "weird", making you sound as though you were more confused, which from what I've seen, is a scum tell. That's basically an argument of semantics. What I was question is why you felt it would be productive to make a long ass post about thrawn's innocence. I don't see why any town would reach this conclusion. Taking shots in the dark in order to establish innocence induces little to no information. Like I've argued ealrier, it might even have the opposite effect. Being confused is not a scum trait. If anything, having perfect information (as scum) makes you too confident in your "reads". Last game I made a small scum slip stating I was "almost dead sure" Kush was town (he was town). That's a result of me being too confident because I had full information and didn't know how I would've viewed the situation with imperfect information (as town). Imcasey made an even worse scum slip like that and Kreb kind of picked up on it. Imcasey said he was sure Xatalos was scum (he was). Then, you say it is "stupid and anti town" to say that I think someone is town. At the very least, my statements put me and thrawn under a microscope and ignites good discussion. Also, since I think thrawn is town, I can focus on some one else, like you, and analyze what you're saying. You can focus on me without making unfounded town reads on thrawn. Next, you say I look through all his posts and try to rationalize them from a townie perspective. That is wrong. I look at it from both perspectives. You never stated why you would think that mafia would do that. With my posts, you could say that you are rationalizing them all from a mafia's perspective. What I found weird is how you analyze ALL his posts and conclude EVERYTHING is townie. A townie is likely to have doubts. However, as scum it's easy to think you need a strong opion on everything, not realizing that as town you wouldn't have a strong opinion. In terms of preventing lurker discussions, it prevents us from saying, ok which lurker candidate should we lynch? It's a specific phrase: let's lynch the last poster in the thread. Since it's specific, we can say, "oh thats dumb" or "i agree". Then, that can lead us to wondering, "thrawn seems kinda scummy" (you) or "he seems good to me". It puts attention on a specific player, leading to higher quality discussion. Then, you say the argument "convinced me". First, thrawns initial statement was a one liner at the beginning of the game. Then, you come along and bring it back up and make a big deal out of it. It didn't need a huge 3 paragraph answer to explain, although you seem to need it. I said it confirmed what I thought it was. As I looked at it, I thought, "wow thats dumb" also. But thinking as to why he would post it as mafia or town, I decided that it was a townie move. Well, here I disagree. I think it needed an explanation. I didn't see his intentions as clear. And in regards to stifling accusations, it can be good if it prevents dumb arguments that clutter up the thread, allowing mafia to hide. I didn't want to read through kush's warned, you suck because you accused me posts since he already warned about it. Not to mention, if we had accused kush in that situation, then you accuse everyone else who said lynch the lurkers. If the accusations are stupid Kush could've dismantled them himself and in the process we would've gained information on Kush. To emphasize why I made the defense post, I did it to prevent repeating what everyone else was saying and bring a new discussion topic into the thread (and it has succeeded). Also, I did it to try to narrow down the list of possible mafia to concentrate our efforts. Repeat what exactly? It's good to narrow down the list of suspects, but not this early and with this limited information. And the only new topic you introduced seems to have been your own allignment and putting yourself up as a potential lynch target. That's not something to be proud of if you're actually town. The post in thrawn's defense is already helping the town by presenting a discussion about my alignment. We are now making specific accusations. We can look at bandwagons as we get closer to lynch now. However, Sonic, I am still having trouble understanding why there isn't any logic in what thrawn and I do. Reading thrawn's explanations and looking back at Debears filter it's possible he understood thrawn's plan and I was just being fucking stupid. His comments makes sense for someone understanding thrawn's stated intentions. I still find the defense of thrawn suspicious for the reasons I stated. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On September 19 2012 04:27 kushm4sta wrote: If I had to call a scum team right now it would be Thrawn debears drazak just because they are all defending each other at this point. The only I would be willing to lynch though is debears. Before you jump down my throat I know it's too early to call scum teams and this is pure speculation. Well that bolded part is just a straight up lie. I don't see how drazak fits into your theory... I was the first one to call drazak out on his unreasonably defensive post and I've never defended him. So once again, is the only reason you think I'm scum because of your debears association case? On September 19 2012 05:07 Sharrant wrote: At the same time, debears isn't really the most suspicious person to me, his defense of Thrawn could be scummy, or it might not be. It was weird, but not a strong tell either way in my opinion. However, there is getting to be a large web of people involved with debears either way. ##unvote Kushm4sta ##vote debears I do however think that it will be a distraction until it is resolved. THere's a good chance he flips scum, and that would reflect poorly on Thrawn, who up until this point I've been relatively sure he was town. I'm not convinced he's mafia, but I'm suspicious enough of him I'd like to get to the point where we can force a claim. Ok Sharrant that is a ridiculous vote. You start out saying "debears isn't really the most suspicious person to me" and say his defense of me "was weird, but not a strong tell either way in my opinion." Then you vote for him and say "there's a good chance he flips scum" and you're "not convinced he's mafia" after saying his defense of me was a null read. So, what exactly is your read on him and if you don't have a read then why are you voting for him? All I see is a bunch of "he may be scum" and "he is a null read." | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
On September 19 2012 04:20 thrawn2112 wrote: OK so kush do you think I'm scum? Do you have reasons for that or is it just a shitty halfway into D1 association case? I went through debear's filter and here's what I've got: People are jumping on him for defending me, under the reasoning that either A) he's mafia trying to make safe posts or B) he and I are both mafia and he's trying to defend me. B is the vibe I'm getting from kush and sonic. But what about option C) that he's town and talking about something that everyone else is talking about? Obviously I say B is dumb excpet from the perspective of sonic who had been accusing me most of the game, but I don't see any indicator that option A or option C is more likely. To me it looks like the people who are accusing him are doing so because they already thought I looked scummy, or because they are scum themselves pushing a mislynch. Not at all. That's why I posted this: On September 19 2012 01:21 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Your hardcore defense of thrawn is suspicious and it seems to lack logic. Making a strong town read, especially this early on, is really stupid and anti-town because it makes this person more comfortable, whereas asking more questions will induce more information (information is always good, as it can be used for scum and town reading). You're going thru all thrawn's posts and try to rationalize them from a town perspective. Having played as scum in my last two games and now experiencing the confusion that is townie, this looks like someone having full information. I can't believe someone without extra information would be willing to actually draw this conclusion based on a handful of early d1 posts. Cockriding one of the most respected player in the field (especially if thrawn = town) is a very convenient scum strategy, as it makes you less likely to be suspected and is an easy way to blend in. If Debears is scum, I think you are more likely to be townie. That's not some kind of definite read or attempt to association. I view you separetely and think any combination of t/t, t/s and s/s is possible, I just think the apparent cockriding would be a bit less likely for s/s (too apparent for a scum strat, unless it's levelling). | ||
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rethos
Romania103 Posts
On September 19 2012 05:09 thrawn2112 wrote: It's odd but not odd enough to influence my read on him in either direction. Basically it this point it tells me nothing other than that it tells me nothing. Still going with town. You say I'm a player who is willing to go after suspicious stuff... well yeah, that's the point of the game. But then when I give a town read, all the sudden that automatically makes myself and that player a team? That's your prerogative but it's an extremely weak case. Is there anything other than that about me which you find suspicious? Because if not then that's a very weak FOS. Ofcourse it's not about the town read. It's about the fact that you seem biased towards it. That was my point and don't try to distort it please. I might be wrong in saying that you are biased. BUT I am not saying that I think it's suspicious because it's a town read... it's suspicious because it seems biased. Also please answer my question. Does this On September 19 2012 04:20 thrawn2112 wrote: About debears: I'll read his filter and point out what I think about it, but for now the thing that struck me as odd was the line: On September 18 2012 22:42 debears wrote:I think thrawn is town. Anyone with evidence pointing otherwise, please present. I don't see why he is making it such a huge goal for town to establish if I am 100% town or not. Seems a little too off topic from the whole scumhunting thing. still stand? Do you still think it's weird? If not please explain why not because I actually agree that it looks weird. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
He says that he thinks I am town and asks if anyone has evidence otherwise. So my interpretation of it is that he's aggressively trying to convince people that I'm town. So what would the motivations be behind that? There's the one that he's town trying to convince people he's right, and there's the possibility that he's scum and is "dickriding" like kush said. But I don't see either being more likely than the other. That's why it doesn't factor into my overall read on him. So in summary, it's weird, but gives me nothing to make a read off of. | ||
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kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
if anything it was an exaggeration and not a lie. I don't want to spend a lot of time discussing my scumteam theories, because while I think they help in looking for cases, they do not constitute a case. but I don't like being called a liar so here goes. drazak is connected by saying killing is more suspicious than debears. he says they can't both be mafia so therefore debears isn't mafia. That is the classic mafia defense..defending a teammate by attacking the attacker. and you have defended debears. So that was the basis for that comment. Is it a real case against you? no. Is it a lie though? also no. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On September 19 2012 05:51 kushm4sta wrote: @thrawn you say I made a straight up lie and that's not an accusation I take lightly. if anything it was an exaggeration and not a lie. I don't want to spend a lot of time discussing my scumteam theories, because while I think they help in looking for cases, they do not constitute a case. but I don't like being called a liar so here goes. drazak is connected by saying killing is more suspicious than debears. he says they can't both be mafia so therefore debears isn't mafia. That is the classic mafia defense..defending a teammate by attacking the attacker. and you have defended debears. So that was the basis for that comment. Is it a real case against you? no. Is it a lie though? also no. Uh, saying that drazak and I defended each other is a lie. In fact it's the exact opposite of the truth. | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
On September 19 2012 05:26 thrawn2112 wrote: Well that bolded part is just a straight up lie. I don't see how drazak fits into your theory... I was the first one to call drazak out on his unreasonably defensive post and I've never defended him. So once again, is the only reason you think I'm scum because of your debears association case? Ok Sharrant that is a ridiculous vote. You start out saying "debears isn't really the most suspicious person to me" and say his defense of me "was weird, but not a strong tell either way in my opinion." Then you vote for him and say "there's a good chance he flips scum" and you're "not convinced he's mafia" after saying his defense of me was a null read. So, what exactly is your read on him and if you don't have a read then why are you voting for him? All I see is a bunch of "he may be scum" and "he is a null read." That's a ridiculous vote? You pick choice words out to discredit what I said, and try to make it personal. I'm fairly convinced the two of you are mafia after that. You know who I think is most suspicious, that hasn't been a secret. This has been mentioned in every post that Kush is my number one target, but that's not going anywhere. I think you should re-read my post. Several times even. Yes, his defense of you wasn't particularly strong either way in and of itself, that's what I said. That's one moment of his play, and you jumped all over that. This is exactly why I voted debears. He was scummier to me than KillingTime, and the situation between those two had to be resolved. And look, here you come in and jump all over it. I never said he was a null read, not once yet you claim I did. I said I'm not convinced he's mafia, but I'm suspcious enough of him to the point where I'd like to force him to claim. Do you see how different those things are? Of course you do, because you're not dumb, you're trying to buy yourself and him some room. I said he was suspicious because he's suspicious, I said I'm not convinced because I wouldn't bet my life savings that he's mafia. But I'm absolutely willing to vote for him. Voting for him did not mean I was ready to lynch him, as it stands I'd now be ready to lynch both of you. I was pretty sure he would flip mafia before, now I'm much more certain. You tried to bully me out of voting, because you didn't agree, yet have cast no votes yourself. In fact everyone has been pretty much sitting on their hands in that regard, townies shouldn't be so scared to use their tools to hunt mafia. Maybe I'm wrong and you and debears aren't mafia, but that "ridiculous vote" just got a pretty big scum slip in my eyes from you. | ||
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kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
Does this make you happy? ebwop Each of you are not defending each of you but you are each defending 1 of you. Why are being so defensive over what to me seems like semantics? | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On September 19 2012 05:58 Sharrant wrote: That's a ridiculous vote? You pick choice words out to discredit what I said, and try to make it personal. I'm fairly convinced the two of you are mafia after that. You know who I think is most suspicious, that hasn't been a secret. This has been mentioned in every post that Kush is my number one target, but that's not going anywhere. I think you should re-read my post. Several times even. Yes, his defense of you wasn't particularly strong either way in and of itself, that's what I said. That's one moment of his play, and you jumped all over that. Yeah it is a ridiculous vote. After reading your post I had absolutely no idea what your read on debears was other than you want him lynched in order to try and make associative cases. And furthermore I don't even think associative cases are good, especially in D1. So to me that vote just seems completely disingenuous. On September 19 2012 05:58 Sharrant wrote:This is exactly why I voted debears. He was scummier to me than KillingTime, and the situation between those two had to be resolved. And look, here you come in and jump all over it. I never said he was a null read, not once yet you claim I did. I said I'm not convinced he's mafia, but I'm suspcious enough of him to the point where I'd like to force him to claim. Claim what exactly? On September 19 2012 05:58 Sharrant wrote:Do you see how different those things are? Of course you do, because you're not dumb, you're trying to buy yourself and him some room. I said he was suspicious because he's suspicious, I said I'm not convinced because I wouldn't bet my life savings that he's mafia. But I'm absolutely willing to vote for him. Voting for him did not mean I was ready to lynch him, as it stands I'd now be ready to lynch both of you. I was pretty sure he would flip mafia before, now I'm much more certain. You tried to bully me out of voting, because you didn't agree, yet have cast no votes yourself. In fact everyone has been pretty much sitting on their hands in that regard, townies shouldn't be so scared to use their tools to hunt mafia. Maybe I'm wrong and you and debears aren't mafia, but that "ridiculous vote" just got a pretty big scum slip in my eyes from you. Me calling you out on that vote has nothing to do with my read on debears, it's about how scummy your vote looks. I still say your vote was wishy washy. | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
I also have said several times now, that I consider him suspicious. The fact that you keep ignoring this is baffling. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On September 19 2012 06:18 Sharrant wrote: Where did I say I wanted him lynched? Please tell me. I said I wanted him forced to claim. I've said in every single post, that voting does not mean you want someone lynched. I also have said several times now, that I consider him suspicious. The fact that you keep ignoring this is baffling. Claim what? His role? Why would you possibly want someone to roleclaim D1? I'm not even sure if roleclaiming is what you're talking about. You say you find him suspicious but you say that while also talking about his defense of me was a null read.... which is the main reason people are suspicious of him in the first place. So what about him is suspicious and what is this "claim" you're trying to get him to make? | ||
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rethos
Romania103 Posts
On September 19 2012 05:47 thrawn2112 wrote: There's the one that he's town trying to convince people he's right Here is were I do not understand your "meh" attitude. Why, if he is town, is he trying to convince people he is right? What does that do? How does that help? Is it just bad town play? Also why is he so convinced that you are town? Everything in his post tries to scream "omg this thrawn2112 guy is sooooo townie"? Why is he not suspicious of you? Confirming a townie is actually not that useful for anyone. How does that help us get scum? If he was trying to convince people that he's right about a scum, that makes sense. Town should push scum. Trying to convince people that he's right about his town read, when that said townie is not in any real danger seems extremely odd. | ||
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rethos
Romania103 Posts
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