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##FOS Debears
I looked at this guy's filter again. And yeah it's fishy as hell.
So now I'm less suspicious of killingtime, more suspicious of debears.
First thing isn't it da bears not de bears??
His initial dickriding of thrawn strikes me as something that could just be indicative of newbie play. It's more productive to make cases against scum than cases for town, especially out of the blue when no one is even accusing the townie. But the latter is easier so it is very possible this is just a newb mistake.
But in his latest post he simultaneously continues the dick ride and defends his right to dickride.
Incoming possible scumslip:
However, if you look at the motivations from a townie and mafia perspective, it doesn't make sense as a mafia post. There's little reward for the risk as mafia. Here's what I showed earlier.
1) Thrawn as town - prevent the lurker discussion from going overboard. Present an idea that should provoke an "you're an idiot" response from town members (with a long shot of some mafia jumping on him about the idea).
2) Thrawn as mafia - Put up an idea that a thinking town would "not" take seriously, make himself look suspcicious. Possibly lynch the most inactive player if it works.
People really need to learn to specify antecedents btw. After about an hour of rereading I figured out that what he is actually saying here is that thrawn's retarded idea to lynch the last person who posts makes him town. He purports himself an expert on the "mafia perspective" even though this is his first game.
I would like more explanation about this line specifically:
1) Thrawn as town - prevent the lurker discussion from going overboard. Present an idea that should provoke an "you're an idiot" response from town members (with a long shot of some mafia jumping on him about the idea).
What do you mean mafia would "jump on him about the idea?" As in they would like or get mad at him for it? Are you saying that thinking that idea is bad makes you scum?
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On September 19 2012 02:09 kushm4sta wrote:
Defense of Sharrant's case against me
Good...scumhunting...dude..
there I didn't flame.
1 You call me insincere because at first I say sorry cubu for bandwagoning him last game, then I call him out for lurking?
I am not going to make a case against him for lurking, but I think a COUPLE words saying so and so are lurking we still need a post is fine.
And yeah I will say cubu played really really bad last game. I wont apologize for saying that. I'm still sorry for lynching him.
I was not trying to start a flame war for with cubu, I was just trying to get him to post. I think encouraging lurkers to post by calling them out or asking them questions is productive. Making cases against lurkers is not productive.
It was just a couple of words, but it is all in the wording. It was the whole underlined, bolded, italicized call out of him. I agree that lurkers need a kick in the pants to start posting more. I'd like to see more posts from Cubu, Stutters, and Killing Time specifically. You've taken a few steps on the road to seeming town to me, but it's a long journey for you, I'm still sticking with my first call.
2 Show nested quote + Keeps on about NKs, and how badly he doesn't want to be NKed. It just rubs me the wrong way. Like he's trying his best to make it sound like town, but has no idea what a town player would talk about. I "keep on about NKs" only because people are calling me out for that statement and I want to defend myself. I will stop talking about NK if you stop. But since you brought it up again let me talk more about my stance on nks: + Show Spoiler +I'm pretty sure last game sonic said it's honorable to be nked, I disagree with this statement because you significantly depreciate your value as town if you do not preserve that value till the end of the game. I think getting NKed indicates bad play for town, because you are making yourself a target. Why did I even bring it up? Bad idea probably judging by the reaction, but I wanted to give you guys some insight into my personal strategy,
And if you're afraid to make yourself a target, then you don't put up as much as you can. NKs provide can provide just as much information as lynches can. On the first read through of your post, I was more convinced of your townieness. But your "I only talk about NKs because you guys talk about! But I'm going to talk about it again, and then say how it was a bad idea to talk about it in the first place." that's put me in an odd spot. It sends real mixed signals to me.
3 Show nested quote +Reverses his stance on 1 post per day, first post was about how set he was to lynch anyone who single posts per day. I never reversed my stance on anything. 1 post a day is not lurking if its a long post. Lynch lurkers, yes, but 1 post a day does not make you a lurker. @sharron Is there anything else you want me to address or is that it? Also please give more effort to organize your posts better. Singling out the different arguments made against me was quite hard.
I'll take this one as a misinterpretation of your wording earlier. You have the benefit of the doubt there, I retract that point from before.
I think my post was more than adequately formatted, every point I called you on was bolded, every town read you gave was underlined, each point was addressed immediately afterwards, and was followed by a concise conclusion. If you have a suggestion on how to better format my posts, do tell.
You've gained some leniency, in that I know have more of a doubt that you might just be a townie who just sort of blurts out whatever they're thinking, but my vote stays on you for now until you post your own scum reads. But I appreciate that you are remaining civil, I think it helps the town out more.
KillingTime, you're starting to come up on my radar more and more. You seem to be riding coat tails, and posting a recap, rather than analysis of events, and then you come out swinging at debears based off of very, very little.
People I would like to hear more from: debears, KillingTime, Rethos, Jacob
You're all up there because I would like to get a better read on you, or I'd like to know more about your opinions.
People I need to hear more from: Atreides, Cubu, Drazak, Remedy, Stutters
And you're all up here because you're either suspicious, or lurking.
My current suspicions are Kush (SK, possibly blue or self important green), KillingTime/debears (One of these two is mafia I think, more likely KT), Stutters (Maf, low content, low posts)
We need to operate under the impression that among ourselves is not just the mafia, but a serial killer. It changes reads on people by an incredible amount. There's too many strategies open to an idependant killer if we don't also try to address them in our scum hunting.
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I like how people keep saying they need to hear more form me when I basically said my posting schedule for today, kind of cracks me up and makes me wonder if people are actually reading others posts, or just skimming them.
So, the first thing I'd like to bring up is that Killingtime said that he doesn't think FoS is good on day one.
So killingtime, how would you get information d1? Would you just lurk in the shadows and look for someone slip up on their own without bring pressured? FOS forces someone to be pressured into giving an answer, the same as voting for someone. If you don't FOS or vote for people oN D!, you're not doing anything to advance town's agenda. So basically what I'm getting at is:
##FOS Killingtime
Hey diude, what're your top 2 scum picks? Who are your top two town reads? Do you have anyone you'd like to look at more?
As far as looking at Debears goes, I think it's a dead end, I'd definitely like to see his response, but I don't think your reasoning was very good kush, you yourself have show how saying something would look from each perspecting, which is exactly what Debears was doing. IN addition, it's an examination of motives, which is important, everyone has a motive.
I don't really have any questions or other comments, I'll let you know if I do. If I missed some questions aimed at me, let me know, I wish there was a better way to look at a filter of posts that mention me, you know?
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killing and debears are both acting scummy, but the problem is it doesn't seem like they are both scum just because of how early and hard that bus would be. if I had to pick one that seems more scumlike to me though, I would pick debears. last game people thought killing was mafia all game long even though he wasn't. I think he just has a very scummy meta.
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Hey bro, I asked him some questions, lets let him answer before we form any opinions. IMO it seems that whenever someone defends osmeone before they answer questions relating to an FOS, it gives them some security and takes the pressure off considerably. Without pressure there's no point in doing an FOS.
TBH I think it's kind of funky that you're defending people kush, lets be real here, this is about finding mafia, not making friends 
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On September 19 2012 02:46 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 02:37 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
I don't really agree with your approach. I wanted to pressure you on the off chance it was serious. Pressuring you gave me the explanation that it was "scum bait", which still doesn't make sense to me. Pressuring someone can give you more information that might be more useful than the original one. And I still want you to explained your rationale behind your post being "scum bait". Ok. Every newbie game I've played in has started with tons and tons of talk about lurker policy, the term I used earlier for it was a "lurker policy circle-jerk." I didn't want this game to go down that path, so I needed to say something that would give people something to argue about instead of everyone just agreeing with each other about lurkers for the first half of D1. So I said something completely ridiculous that I thought should have been obvious to everyone that it wasn't a real suggestion...... obvious to everyone except scum, who are over eager to jump on anything in order to push a mislynch. Hence, "scum-bait." So yes, it was a serious question that I was hoping to get responses to, but it wasn't my personal choice for D1 lynch. A few posts after that I outlined my real D1 lynch ideas.
Well, I think this rationale is bad. First, newbie townies will jump on the opportunity to contribute and question someone to establish their towniness. I, as a slightly more experienced player, questioned you to force more information. I don't see what type of player that wouldn't bring it up in any way.
Anyway, what I find even weirder is that Debears actually seems to find this argument both intuitive and convincing. Debears?
On September 19 2012 02:48 thrawn2112 wrote:
EBWOP sorry sonic didn't see your post before i posted my response
No worries, should've thought about it earlier.
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@drazak, I took killings comment to mean that he is not against accusing people day 1, just that he would rather vote than fos. The difference between the two has never been that huge of a deal to me. I do bot think his comments about fos are scummy per se.
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Sonic,
First, you say i had a "hardcore defense" and "strong town read" of thrawn. I never used the word strong. "I think thrawn is town". It is not I know thrawn is town or thrawn is confirmed town. I'm "taking a shot in the dark" for now and and saying he is town to me. Also, most of my "defense" of him was trying to explain to you the possible logic behind his post. You said it was a "breakdown of logic" and that you found it "weird", making you sound as though you were more confused, which from what I've seen, is a scum tell.
Then, you say it is "stupid and anti town" to say that I think someone is town. At the very least, my statements put me and thrawn under a microscope and ignites good discussion. Also, since I think thrawn is town, I can focus on some one else, like you, and analyze what you're saying.
Next, you say I look through all his posts and try to rationalize them from a townie perspective. That is wrong. I look at it from both perspectives. You never stated why you would think that mafia would do that. With my posts, you could say that you are rationalizing them all from a mafia's perspective.
In terms of preventing lurker discussions, it prevents us from saying, ok which lurker candidate should we lynch? It's a specific phrase: let's lynch the last poster in the thread. Since it's specific, we can say, "oh thats dumb" or "i agree". Then, that can lead us to wondering, "thrawn seems kinda scummy" (you) or "he seems good to me". It puts attention on a specific player, leading to higher quality discussion.
Then, you say the argument "convinced me". First, thrawns initial statement was a one liner at the beginning of the game. Then, you come along and bring it back up and make a big deal out of it. It didn't need a huge 3 paragraph answer to explain, although you seem to need it. I said it confirmed what I thought it was. As I looked at it, I thought, "wow thats dumb" also. But thinking as to why he would post it as mafia or town, I decided that it was a townie move.
And in regards to stifling accusations, it can be good if it prevents dumb arguments that clutter up the thread, allowing mafia to hide. I didn't want to read through kush's warned, you suck because you accused me posts since he already warned about it. Not to mention, if we had accused kush in that situation, then you accuse everyone else who said lynch the lurkers.
To emphasize why I made the defense post, I did it to prevent repeating what everyone else was saying and bring a new discussion topic into the thread (and it has succeeded). Also, I did it to try to narrow down the list of possible mafia to concentrate our efforts.
The post in thrawn's defense is already helping the town by presenting a discussion about my alignment. We are now making specific accusations. We can look at bandwagons as we get closer to lynch now.
However, Sonic, I am still having trouble understanding why there isn't any logic in what thrawn and I do.
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I mentioned before the game that I am working a few 12 hour shifts. Today is my last one which is over in 6 1/2 hours. Afterwards I'll be more into the discussion.
I also have the next four days off, so just be patient, I'll have something good tonight.
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drazak Dont get me wrong I am still suspicious of killing and want him to respond, it's just that I'm more suspicious of debears atm.
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kush bro, it's like you didn't even read my previous post! Are you so set up in defending your mafia friend here that you're willing to look scummy yourself? I took it to mean that there's nothing to be gotten by questioning people, and that the only way to get answers is to vote, and while voting forces a dfense, it doesn't necessarily force someone into giving information, into letting people read them. Voting puts a bit of a different type of pressure on someone than just having a FOS, an FOS isn't necessarily a defense.
This is coming from when I've played IRL mafia, to be frank. When you want to force a defense, you call for a formal, which would be like a vote without actually voting, but when you want to get information you just ask them questions in an imperative way, using FOS increases the imperative nature of the questions.
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oh shit watch out guys drazak has played irl mafia
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sonic: The point is not to see who disagrees with a obviously ridiculous statement, the point is to see who is eager to build a case against me because of it. Other people casually mentioned that it was a flat out awful idea but you presented the false dichotomy that either I posted it as town which you see as most unlikey, or that I posted it as scum.
About debears: I'll read his filter and point out what I think about it, but for now the thing that struck me as odd was the line: On September 18 2012 22:42 debears wrote:I think thrawn is town. Anyone with evidence pointing otherwise, please present.
I don't see why he is making it such a huge goal for town to establish if I am 100% town or not. Seems a little too off topic from the whole scumhunting thing.
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Hey thrawn maybe you should pm your scumbuddy to stop dickriding you so hard?
Let me direct everyone's attention to the end of debears last post:
On September 19 2012 03:30 debears wrote:
The post in thrawn's defense is already helping the town by presenting a discussion about my alignment. We are now making specific accusations. We can look at bandwagons as we get closer to lynch now.
However, Sonic, I am still having trouble understanding why there isn't any logic in what thrawn and I do.
1 Only scum would pretend to be glad he was accused scum. He says the town is being helped by the discussion about his alignment. It's like him saying see I cant be scum because I'm happy about being accused. Seems desperate.
2 "Im still having trouble understanding why there isn't any logic in what thrawn and I do." HUH?? What is it that thrawn and you do? Kill townies at night? Why are you so incessant on grouping you and thrawn togther.
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1. Never said I was glad....really pissing me off actually. At least its productive and I'm not sitting in my little chair doing nothing and not contributing. Never gonna learn to play if you don't play.
2. Lol. That part was in reference to Sonic not understanding thrawns actions and to Sonic not understanding the defense.
and because hes my man crush
btw @rethos
Looking through the thread, I have found that your posts, while you have been posting often, are short and lacking of original ideas.
This is the only one i found of any substance
+ Show Spoiler + rethos Romania. September 18 2012 20:17. Posts 52 PM Profile Quote #
filter
People what are your opinions on the case against SDM? We need to get some discussions going. From the lack of activity i guess this might be night-time for US but i am sure we have other people except me that are not from US.
My opinion: from looking on SDM's filter in the last game he seems to like doing everything organized. That is ofcourse used by him as scum to make it like he's contributing. It does seem though to be a different type of "lists".
I do agree that the survey is preatty much useless even though i answered it just to at least keep some conversation going. It does depend on the reason why SDM made the survey in the first place. I have multiple answers in mind for this and some are scummy some are not (in my opinion). I will ofcourse not discolse them untill he answers the question.
@SDM what was your reason / thought process on creating the said survey?
As for thrawn2112 idea that SDM jumped too hard on his proposal, that seems a bit of a weak point to me seing that i also was jumping on it but a bit more tactful by asking you first to clarify it. It just looks like too weird an idea to just leave it alone.
We need to not let the game die, please people post some thoughts.
In the post, your main point is that people need to post more.The other parts are repeated points.
What say you, Rethos?
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On September 19 2012 03:42 thrawn2112 wrote:
sonic: The point is not to see who disagrees with a obviously ridiculous statement, the point is to see who is eager to build a case against me because of it. Other people casually mentioned that it was a flat out awful idea but you presented the false dichotomy that either I posted it as town which you see as most unlikey, or that I posted it as scum.
I can see your point more clearly now. If someone actually would've tried to push for a lynch based on that post alone it would've been weird. Not sure if it would've been particularly scummy though. Why would scum want to draw attention by going balls out early d1 lynching wagon with poor reasoning? It's kind of what Kush did as town last game.
Your reasoning makes some kind of sense though, which is the most important part for me at this point.
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OK so kush do you think I'm scum? Do you have reasons for that or is it just a shitty halfway into D1 association case?
I went through debear's filter and here's what I've got:
People are jumping on him for defending me, under the reasoning that either A) he's mafia trying to make safe posts or B) he and I are both mafia and he's trying to defend me. B is the vibe I'm getting from kush and sonic. But what about option C) that he's town and talking about something that everyone else is talking about? Obviously I say B is dumb excpet from the perspective of sonic who had been accusing me most of the game, but I don't see any indicator that option A or option C is more likely. To me it looks like the people who are accusing him are doing so because they already thought I looked scummy, or because they are scum themselves pushing a mislynch.
The thing in debear's filter I disagreed with was his agreement that kush is sk. I can see how it would be possible but I don't see any reason to think it's likely, especially since we don't even yet know if there's a sk or not. Debears what are your thoughts on kush beyond what you already said?
In summary: His defense of me doesn't look more town-motivated or mafia-motivated, so I'm going with a null read on the whole "defending thrawn" situation.
Pre Edit: just saw that he posted some stuff about rethos, so my current read on him is that he's done nothing that I see as scummy and he has participated in discussion and brought some original ideas into the mix. So overall I'm saying he's looking town. His defense of me was a little to lengthy and aggressive to be normal but I don't know why he'd do that as town or mafia.
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@thrawn
Even if you are town debears could still be scum. Have you ever heard of buddying? I read about it in some guide. Scum will pick a strong townie to buddy with so that the townie will defend him. They will pick someone who looks liek town so that they can seem like as well by attaching themselves. It's a common tactic for newbie scum.
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If I had to call a scum team right now it would be Thrawn debears drazak just because they are all defending each other at this point. The only I would be willing to lynch though is debears.
Before you jump down my throat I know it's too early to call scum teams and this is pure speculation.
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Hey everyone, sorry for not having posted yet - I'll be more active from now on.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 18 2012 15:22 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Maffia XXVII survey (not filling it in will make you look scummy):
1. Will you be around for lynch time?
2. How active do you plan on being?
3. How many games have you obsed?
4. Is this your first game playing?
5. If not, how many games have you played?
6. Is this your first time playing as scum? 1) Most likely yes 2) I'll usually be active on evenings / nights every day 3) None 4) Yes 6) Maybe
One thing that stuck me is that KillingTime doesn't agree with FOS, but votes debears in the same post - without justification!
I'm not convinced kush is scum. The serial killer argument is a stretch, as he'd have to have balls of steel to purposely draw so much attention to himself. He's said some silly things (like asking for NK) but it seems to be his style.
I'll be back with another (and longer) post soon
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EPT
