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I personally (Agree/Disagree) with (TL Staff/Destiny) about the recent ban and de-feature of Destiny. Using racist language is (Unacceptable/a divine mandate), and attacking the staff to defend such actions is (Ludicrous/Freedom of Speech).
TL choosing the content they feature or allow on their website is (Their right/gross censorship).
Anyone who disagrees with me is (insert various insults here).
Ok, seriously though, it feels like there's a template for this. Every blog, every thread seems to go through the exact same motions.
Here's the thing. A censor (the noun version) is any person who supervises the manners or morality of others. That is, in fact, what the mods do. A rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet. You can scream all you want about censorship, but this is a private location, not public. You don't fund it with your tax dollars. Any time someone gets banned for spoilers? That's censorship. Any time someone gets banned for butchering liquipedia? Censorship. Any time... yeah, you get the fucking point.
So what makes it such a big difference when a player's stream gets de-featured? It's not. It's just them exercising their right to determine the content displayed through their page. Is it typical "TL Nazi mods"? Maybe, but guess what? Your stream doesn't have any fucking legal rights. Your stream isn't a legal entity. And you, the people running those streams, don't have any contractual relationship with TL that guarantees your stream featured status. And if you did, you can bet there'd be some escape clauses in that contract. Why? So they can protect themselves.
Now I'm not going to get too crazy about how language works, but context is part of offense, and part of it is definition. If, contextually, I'm being sarcastic and call someone a genius, I'm insulting their intelligence. It doesn't matter that the word can mean the exact opposite, I'm still being insulting.
If, in the context of me talking to my friends, I can get away with saying racist words, contextually it isn't insulting, but the words still convey a certain meaning. That's definition.
Now let's get complicated. Some words are MORE offensive than others. Yes, every person has their own sliding scale, as we've seen a million times over lately. For some people, certain words aren't offensive. Well, guess what, that means YOU don't take offense at those words. Cookie? You complain about censorship being bad, but then you try to force everybody to accept your opinion on morality instead. That's a little hypocritical.
Is it thin skin? That's possible. However, this is the internet. You can't possibly know what meaning a person has associated with a word, or an attitude. However, let's talk about thin skin some more. Is thick skin telling people they're thin skinned and spending the next week or more ranting on an alternate site about these meany assholes that won't let you shit on the floor? Is thick skin getting mad because your favorite streamer isn't featured on a website he claims to hate everything about?
Not getting it, here, people. Every argument in the situation is done to death. Finger pointing, ridiculous comparisons, screaming... it's turning into a big joke. IdrA isn't Destiny. Hell, EG isn't even Quantic. And TL isn't either of them. If you have a problem with IdrA, ranting at the TL mods about how they run their private, unaffiliated website probably isn't the ideal solution.
And if you want to talk about people being unfair, or evenhanded... go stand up for TB. He got temped for going apeshit, didn't see countless threads screaming at the mods about how mean and unfair they are. So again, I say hypocrites. You accuse the staff of favoritism, when they never claim to be impartial. But you do it yourselves.
So, let's get it all out in the open, folks, this doesn't seem to be about any of the things people claim it is, so let's call it what it is. Mad fans. It's not about freedom of speech, impartiality, or any of the other ridiculous excuses that get thrown around. And you'd probably even get further by just standing up and saying you're a fan. Hell, try using the contact link to say you won't be giving TL pageviews, and then actually backing off on the pageviews. Express your displeasure in the SAME way.
I doubt it will work, but it seems more effective than going over the same few tired, ridiculous arguments a few million more times.
 
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People who are censors should be above petty insults. Our gods should not be able to bleed. Fullstop.
Edit- Not everyone has invested stock in Destiny, some people are mad simply because of ethical issues
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I personally (Agree/Disagree) with (TL Staff/Destiny) about the recent ban and de-feature of Destiny. Using racist language is (Unacceptable/a divine mandate), and attacking the staff to defend such actions is (Ludicrous/Freedom of Speech).
TL choosing the content they feature or allow on their website is (Their right/gross censorship).
Anyone who disagrees with me has lovely hair.
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On May 05 2012 00:05 DYEAlabaster wrote:
People who are censors should be above petty insults. Our gods should not be able to bleed. Fullstop.
Edit- Not everyone has invested stock in Destiny, some people are mad simply because of ethical issues
What ethical issues? They've never pretended to be even-handed.
And Intrigue wasn't the mod doing the banning, and by the sound of it, there was a pretty big discussion on how to handle the situation. That right there means Destiny got preferential treatment over an average user, who would have just gotten slapped down instantly for the same sort of behavior. I should know, I've gotten temped for less. I don't say that out of bitterness, just fact.
So, if we want to talk ethics, let's talk about the ethics of Destiny getting preferential treatment in self-promotion, and in having the whole staff discuss it before temping him, when he originally just got a warning.
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I wonder if this is a cultural thing. I live in Sweden and in gaming context, people don't give a shit about what terms you use. If someone goes up to someone who is gay and says "fucking faggot", then yes, that's a problem. Most often not because of the choice of words, but because there's another problem behind that (like homophobia or just personal grudge). As an example, my cousin who is gay frequently uses terms like "fuck, that's so gay" when gaming with me, and he doesn't care when I say the same things.
Most of the people I've met, including me, have the view of "words are just words, you give them power when you cower". So I think it's okay to use these kinds of words when gaming and you are only representing yourself, because only you will be held responsible for your actions.
However, and this is a big however, I do agree that when you are representing someone other than yourself, you have to respect their views. This goes for casting and playing for some organisation and to an extent just being part of one. That's why this issue is kind of hard to judge for me, because part of me feels like Destiny should be able to say and do whatever the fuck he wants on his stream because it's his own stream. Peoples opinions should not change who he is or how he conveys himself, instead, they can chose to disregard him if they don't like him. The problem comes in when he has Quantic logos in his overlay, suddenly he is representing an organisation and that means people will have to disregard not only him, but also Quantic because they don't want to condone his behavior.
Also, this has nothing to do with maturity. In fact, I think this shows how mature Destiny is because he has formed his own opinion that goes against what many believe to be right, and he stands by it with well formed arguments. This is a lot better than defending something just because "it's the way people say it should be", without thinking for yourself.
This image kind of shows that behavior well, when people defend views they have never individually reflected over:
+ Show Spoiler +
I think it's sad that people get offended by words so easily, but what can you do about it? Pretty much nothing.
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I personally (Agree/Disagree) with (TL Staff/Destiny) about the recent ban and de-feature of Destiny. Using racist language is (kind of freedom of speech, you get the point i hope?), and attacking the staff to defend such actions is (Ludicrous/Freedom of Speech).
HOWEVER
TL choosing the content they feature or allow on their website is (Their right/gross censorship).
Anyone who disagrees with me has lovely hair.
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I think you've covered it.
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On May 05 2012 00:28 Snaiil wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wonder if this is a cultural thing. I live in Sweden and in gaming context, people don't give a shit about what terms you use. If someone goes up to someone who is gay and says "fucking faggot", then yes, that's a problem. Most often not because of the choice of words, but because there's another problem behind that (like homophobia or just personal grudge). As an example, my cousin who is gay frequently uses terms like "fuck, that's so gay" when gaming with me, and he doesn't care when I say the same things. Most of the people I've met, including me, have the view of "words are just words, you give them power when you cower". So I think it's okay to use these kinds of words when gaming and you are only representing yourself, because only you will be held responsible for your actions. However, and this is a big however, I do agree that when you are representing someone other than yourself, you have to respect their views. This goes for casting and playing for some organisation and to an extent just being part of one. That's why this issue is kind of hard to judge for me, because part of me feels like Destiny should be able to say and do whatever the fuck he wants on his stream because it's his own stream. Peoples opinions should not change who he is or how he conveys himself, instead, they can chose to disregard him if they don't like him. The problem comes in when he has Quantic logos in his overlay, suddenly he is representing an organisation and that means people will have to disregard not only him, but also Quantic because they don't want to condone his behavior. Also, this has nothing to do with maturity. In fact, I think this shows how mature Destiny is because he has formed his own opinion that goes against what many believe to be right, and he stands by it with well formed arguments. This is a lot better than defending something just because "it's the way people say it should be", without thinking for yourself. This image kind of shows that behavior well, when people defend views they have never individually reflected over: + Show Spoiler +I think it's sad that people get offended by words so easily, but what can you do about it? Pretty much nothing.
I think the thing people are forgetting, though, is that with the internet, you don't know who your audience is. Just like I consider content on Destiny's stream to be his prerogative (I just refuse to give him ad revenue), content in TL's featured streams is their prerogative.
As for why things are offensive, some people do just white-knight it up, but other people either have a legitimate reason to be offended by hate speech, or just aren't fans of a community they're a part of showing a face of intolerance.
Ignoring personal reasons for disliking hate speech, as an American, I've seen tons of lobbies trying to get video games banned for all kinds of stupid reasons. The last thing I'd want is to give those lobbies more ammunition.
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United States1052 Posts
On May 05 2012 00:39 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 00:28 Snaiil wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wonder if this is a cultural thing. I live in Sweden and in gaming context, people don't give a shit about what terms you use. If someone goes up to someone who is gay and says "fucking faggot", then yes, that's a problem. Most often not because of the choice of words, but because there's another problem behind that (like homophobia or just personal grudge). As an example, my cousin who is gay frequently uses terms like "fuck, that's so gay" when gaming with me, and he doesn't care when I say the same things. Most of the people I've met, including me, have the view of "words are just words, you give them power when you cower". So I think it's okay to use these kinds of words when gaming and you are only representing yourself, because only you will be held responsible for your actions. However, and this is a big however, I do agree that when you are representing someone other than yourself, you have to respect their views. This goes for casting and playing for some organisation and to an extent just being part of one. That's why this issue is kind of hard to judge for me, because part of me feels like Destiny should be able to say and do whatever the fuck he wants on his stream because it's his own stream. Peoples opinions should not change who he is or how he conveys himself, instead, they can chose to disregard him if they don't like him. The problem comes in when he has Quantic logos in his overlay, suddenly he is representing an organisation and that means people will have to disregard not only him, but also Quantic because they don't want to condone his behavior. Also, this has nothing to do with maturity. In fact, I think this shows how mature Destiny is because he has formed his own opinion that goes against what many believe to be right, and he stands by it with well formed arguments. This is a lot better than defending something just because "it's the way people say it should be", without thinking for yourself. This image kind of shows that behavior well, when people defend views they have never individually reflected over: + Show Spoiler +I think it's sad that people get offended by words so easily, but what can you do about it? Pretty much nothing. I think the thing people are forgetting, though, is that with the internet, you don't know who your audience is. Just like I consider content on Destiny's stream to be his prerogative (I just refuse to give him ad revenue), content in TL's featured streams is their prerogative. As for why things are offensive, some people do just white-knight it up, but other people either have a legitimate reason to be offended by hate speech, or just aren't fans of a community they're a part of showing a face of intolerance. Ignoring personal reasons for disliking hate speech, as an American, I've seen tons of lobbies trying to get video games banned for all kinds of stupid reasons. The last thing I'd want is to give those lobbies more ammunition.
Basically this. My reasons for opposing destiny is that the more people like him the the angry WoW kids becomes the popular face of gaming, the easier it is for the mainstream to marginalize gaming.
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I think this should be the official "Express how you feel about Destiny thread." Copy and paste the op's first paragraph:
I personally (Agree/Disagree) with (TL Staff/Destiny) about the recent ban and de-feature of Destiny. Using racist language is (Unacceptable/a divine mandate), and attacking the staff to defend such actions is (Ludicrous/Freedom of Speech).
Then make your opinion! Simple as that.
I agree with op btw. Take that haters!
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On May 05 2012 00:39 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 00:28 Snaiil wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wonder if this is a cultural thing. I live in Sweden and in gaming context, people don't give a shit about what terms you use. If someone goes up to someone who is gay and says "fucking faggot", then yes, that's a problem. Most often not because of the choice of words, but because there's another problem behind that (like homophobia or just personal grudge). As an example, my cousin who is gay frequently uses terms like "fuck, that's so gay" when gaming with me, and he doesn't care when I say the same things. Most of the people I've met, including me, have the view of "words are just words, you give them power when you cower". So I think it's okay to use these kinds of words when gaming and you are only representing yourself, because only you will be held responsible for your actions. However, and this is a big however, I do agree that when you are representing someone other than yourself, you have to respect their views. This goes for casting and playing for some organisation and to an extent just being part of one. That's why this issue is kind of hard to judge for me, because part of me feels like Destiny should be able to say and do whatever the fuck he wants on his stream because it's his own stream. Peoples opinions should not change who he is or how he conveys himself, instead, they can chose to disregard him if they don't like him. The problem comes in when he has Quantic logos in his overlay, suddenly he is representing an organisation and that means people will have to disregard not only him, but also Quantic because they don't want to condone his behavior. Also, this has nothing to do with maturity. In fact, I think this shows how mature Destiny is because he has formed his own opinion that goes against what many believe to be right, and he stands by it with well formed arguments. This is a lot better than defending something just because "it's the way people say it should be", without thinking for yourself. This image kind of shows that behavior well, when people defend views they have never individually reflected over: + Show Spoiler +I think it's sad that people get offended by words so easily, but what can you do about it? Pretty much nothing. I think the thing people are forgetting, though, is that with the internet, you don't know who your audience is. Just like I consider content on Destiny's stream to be his prerogative (I just refuse to give him ad revenue), content in TL's featured streams is their prerogative. As for why things are offensive, some people do just white-knight it up, but other people either have a legitimate reason to be offended by hate speech, or just aren't fans of a community they're a part of showing a face of intolerance. Ignoring personal reasons for disliking hate speech, as an American, I've seen tons of lobbies trying to get video games banned for all kinds of stupid reasons. The last thing I'd want is to give those lobbies more ammunition.
I respect your opinion, but I do not fully agree with it. It doesn't really matter if you don't know your audience as long as you aren't forcing anyone to view your content, because every viewer can decide if they like the content or not and therefore themselves decide if they want to promote it or not. They don't have to change the content because they don't agree with it, instead they should simply just turn away from it.
I do agree with the fact that TL has the right to chose what streams they want to have featured, it is their decision to make because it is their site. Destiny should not be held responsible for representing TL in a bad way when he was featured though, because it was TLs decision to feature him in the first place, not his own.
As for lobbies trying to get rid of video games, I don't see how this could help them get more ammunition for it. I can see how someone would argue that Destiny is representing gamers, and therefore shouldn't use these kinds of words. But to me that's a very far stretch, like saying I represent all swedes because of my views. You can't ban something because of the users, but rather it has to be the content that is faulty. If StarCraft 2 conveyed racist/homophobic messages, then that would give them more ammunition, this however, won't.
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I personally (Agree/Disagree/Don't give a shit) with (TL Staff/Destiny) about the recent ban and de-feature of Destiny. Using racist language is (Unacceptable/a divine mandate/stupid), and attacking the staff to defend such actions is (Ludicrous/retarded use of Freedom of Speech).
TL choosing the content they feature or allow on their website is (Their goddamn right, it's a private hosted site/gross censorship).
I don't care what happened to Destiny: I like his stream and general style, his remarks were sort-of out of line (BM happens, but "gook" really? What is wrong these days with a simple "motherfucker" or other generic swearing?) but the "community" reaction was blown way out of proportion. It's sad that Quantic and their sponsors had to get a lot of flack for this nonsense and I certainly hope that they won't get any lasting crap after this.
I'm happy though that Destiny's stream covers his income, so that he can BM now without repercussions for anyone else.
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On May 05 2012 01:08 Snaiil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 00:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 05 2012 00:28 Snaiil wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wonder if this is a cultural thing. I live in Sweden and in gaming context, people don't give a shit about what terms you use. If someone goes up to someone who is gay and says "fucking faggot", then yes, that's a problem. Most often not because of the choice of words, but because there's another problem behind that (like homophobia or just personal grudge). As an example, my cousin who is gay frequently uses terms like "fuck, that's so gay" when gaming with me, and he doesn't care when I say the same things. Most of the people I've met, including me, have the view of "words are just words, you give them power when you cower". So I think it's okay to use these kinds of words when gaming and you are only representing yourself, because only you will be held responsible for your actions. However, and this is a big however, I do agree that when you are representing someone other than yourself, you have to respect their views. This goes for casting and playing for some organisation and to an extent just being part of one. That's why this issue is kind of hard to judge for me, because part of me feels like Destiny should be able to say and do whatever the fuck he wants on his stream because it's his own stream. Peoples opinions should not change who he is or how he conveys himself, instead, they can chose to disregard him if they don't like him. The problem comes in when he has Quantic logos in his overlay, suddenly he is representing an organisation and that means people will have to disregard not only him, but also Quantic because they don't want to condone his behavior. Also, this has nothing to do with maturity. In fact, I think this shows how mature Destiny is because he has formed his own opinion that goes against what many believe to be right, and he stands by it with well formed arguments. This is a lot better than defending something just because "it's the way people say it should be", without thinking for yourself. This image kind of shows that behavior well, when people defend views they have never individually reflected over: + Show Spoiler +I think it's sad that people get offended by words so easily, but what can you do about it? Pretty much nothing. I think the thing people are forgetting, though, is that with the internet, you don't know who your audience is. Just like I consider content on Destiny's stream to be his prerogative (I just refuse to give him ad revenue), content in TL's featured streams is their prerogative. As for why things are offensive, some people do just white-knight it up, but other people either have a legitimate reason to be offended by hate speech, or just aren't fans of a community they're a part of showing a face of intolerance. Ignoring personal reasons for disliking hate speech, as an American, I've seen tons of lobbies trying to get video games banned for all kinds of stupid reasons. The last thing I'd want is to give those lobbies more ammunition. I respect your opinion, but I do not fully agree with it. It doesn't really matter if you don't know your audience as long as you aren't forcing anyone to view your content, because every viewer can decide if they like the content or not and therefore themselves decide if they want to promote it or not. They don't have to change the content because they don't agree with it, instead they should simply just turn away from it. I do agree with the fact that TL has the right to chose what streams they want to have featured, it is their decision to make because it is their site. Destiny should not be held responsible for representing TL in a bad way when he was featured though, because it was TLs decision to feature him in the first place, not his own. As for lobbies trying to get rid of video games, I don't see how this could help them get more ammunition for it. I can see how someone would argue that Destiny is representing gamers, and therefore shouldn't use these kinds of words. But to me that's a very far stretch, like saying I represent all swedes because of my views. You can't ban something because of the users, but rather it has to be the content that is faulty. If StarCraft 2 conveyed racist/homophobic messages, then that would give them more ammunition, this however, won't.
People try to get WoW banned/boycotted because people play unhealthy amounts of WoW. I don't think it really qualifies as country bashing if you agree with me (an American) that America's legal system sometimes makes no sense.
People want McDonalds to get legal trouble because people eat too much McDonalds.
People win huge gobs of cash for spilling coffee in their laps.
An unfortunate number of Americans dislike personal responsibility in a consumer/seller relationship. So yes, a very popular streamer using that kind of language gives the lobbies ammunition to use.
Like I said, I personally just never watch Destiny. But I also think his use of that kind of language can have negative repercussions outside himself. I do, however, wish more people could do what you are, and separate his stream usage from his TL habits. Yes, I despise his streaming habits, but until he earned himself a ban through other means, I didn't give a shit that it was featured. Hell, I still don't. I just can't understand the hate TL is getting for their decision to make the ban more significant.
Especially since most of the arguments being used don't even require much effort to flip around on the people throwing them out there.
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Hahaha, I was expected some generic Destiny ramble blog, and I got one, but I was amused! :p
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On May 05 2012 02:16 Azzur wrote:
Hahaha, I was expected some generic Destiny ramble blog, and I got one, but I was amused! :p
Well, it's not like the title gave any false impressions...
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You forgot esports, eSports and ESPORTS and ofcourse hurting/helping esports.
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On May 05 2012 02:23 Wortie wrote:
You forgot esports, eSports and ESPORTS and ofcourse hurting/helping esports.
I don't have the economics knowledge to sort out the multiple chains of cause and effect between an "entertainer", sponsors, teams, and everything else involved to even BEGIN to determine what's best for esports overall. I can safely make the educated guess that certain lobby groups would have a field day with Destiny's behavior, but esports is bigger than TL, and bigger than Destiny. It's bigger than SC2. So without a degree and hefty analysis, it's better to stick with an editorial.
Sorry, does that mean I'm doing it wrong?
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United States5162 Posts
I just don't get why this became as issue all of a sudden. It's not like Destiny's behavior wasn't like this from the beginning.
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On May 05 2012 02:36 Myles wrote:
I just don't get why this became as issue all of a sudden. It's not like Destiny's behavior wasn't like this from the beginning.
It wasn't "all of a sudden". It's come up tons of times before. It's just that this time, it was the catalyst for a reaction from Destiny that got him banned for actions on TL. Add in that people realized after the Orb thing that consumers actually have some power in the market, and all of a sudden something happened.
I do think it's hysterical that there are actually people who seem to think he's somehow taking the moral high ground by refusing to fix his reprehensible behavior though.
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On May 05 2012 00:39 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 00:28 Snaiil wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wonder if this is a cultural thing. I live in Sweden and in gaming context, people don't give a shit about what terms you use. If someone goes up to someone who is gay and says "fucking faggot", then yes, that's a problem. Most often not because of the choice of words, but because there's another problem behind that (like homophobia or just personal grudge). As an example, my cousin who is gay frequently uses terms like "fuck, that's so gay" when gaming with me, and he doesn't care when I say the same things. Most of the people I've met, including me, have the view of "words are just words, you give them power when you cower". So I think it's okay to use these kinds of words when gaming and you are only representing yourself, because only you will be held responsible for your actions. However, and this is a big however, I do agree that when you are representing someone other than yourself, you have to respect their views. This goes for casting and playing for some organisation and to an extent just being part of one. That's why this issue is kind of hard to judge for me, because part of me feels like Destiny should be able to say and do whatever the fuck he wants on his stream because it's his own stream. Peoples opinions should not change who he is or how he conveys himself, instead, they can chose to disregard him if they don't like him. The problem comes in when he has Quantic logos in his overlay, suddenly he is representing an organisation and that means people will have to disregard not only him, but also Quantic because they don't want to condone his behavior. Also, this has nothing to do with maturity. In fact, I think this shows how mature Destiny is because he has formed his own opinion that goes against what many believe to be right, and he stands by it with well formed arguments. This is a lot better than defending something just because "it's the way people say it should be", without thinking for yourself. This image kind of shows that behavior well, when people defend views they have never individually reflected over: + Show Spoiler +I think it's sad that people get offended by words so easily, but what can you do about it? Pretty much nothing. I think the thing people are forgetting, though, is that with the internet, you don't know who your audience is. Just like I consider content on Destiny's stream to be his prerogative (I just refuse to give him ad revenue), content in TL's featured streams is their prerogative. As for why things are offensive, some people do just white-knight it up, but other people either have a legitimate reason to be offended by hate speech, or just aren't fans of a community they're a part of showing a face of intolerance. Ignoring personal reasons for disliking hate speech, as an American, I've seen tons of lobbies trying to get video games banned for all kinds of stupid reasons. The last thing I'd want is to give those lobbies more ammunition.
Hit the nail on the head for me. I'm asian and I wouldn't give a fuck if he called me racist names. But some people do, and you have to respect that. And I don't want to be associated with a community that is known for accepting or condoning racist or homophobic language.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XkEdg.jpg?1)
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