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I personally (Agree/Disagree) with (TL Staff/Destiny) about the recent ban and de-feature of Destiny. Using racist language is (Unacceptable/a divine mandate), and attacking the staff to defend such actions is (Ludicrous/Freedom of Speech).
TL choosing the content they feature or allow on their website is (Their right/gross censorship).
Anyone who disagrees with me is (insert various insults here).
Ok, seriously though, it feels like there's a template for this. Every blog, every thread seems to go through the exact same motions.
Here's the thing. A censor (the noun version) is any person who supervises the manners or morality of others. That is, in fact, what the mods do. A rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet. You can scream all you want about censorship, but this is a private location, not public. You don't fund it with your tax dollars. Any time someone gets banned for spoilers? That's censorship. Any time someone gets banned for butchering liquipedia? Censorship. Any time... yeah, you get the fucking point.
So what makes it such a big difference when a player's stream gets de-featured? It's not. It's just them exercising their right to determine the content displayed through their page. Is it typical "TL Nazi mods"? Maybe, but guess what? Your stream doesn't have any fucking legal rights. Your stream isn't a legal entity. And you, the people running those streams, don't have any contractual relationship with TL that guarantees your stream featured status. And if you did, you can bet there'd be some escape clauses in that contract. Why? So they can protect themselves.
Now I'm not going to get too crazy about how language works, but context is part of offense, and part of it is definition. If, contextually, I'm being sarcastic and call someone a genius, I'm insulting their intelligence. It doesn't matter that the word can mean the exact opposite, I'm still being insulting.
If, in the context of me talking to my friends, I can get away with saying racist words, contextually it isn't insulting, but the words still convey a certain meaning. That's definition.
Now let's get complicated. Some words are MORE offensive than others. Yes, every person has their own sliding scale, as we've seen a million times over lately. For some people, certain words aren't offensive. Well, guess what, that means YOU don't take offense at those words. Cookie? You complain about censorship being bad, but then you try to force everybody to accept your opinion on morality instead. That's a little hypocritical.
Is it thin skin? That's possible. However, this is the internet. You can't possibly know what meaning a person has associated with a word, or an attitude. However, let's talk about thin skin some more. Is thick skin telling people they're thin skinned and spending the next week or more ranting on an alternate site about these meany assholes that won't let you shit on the floor? Is thick skin getting mad because your favorite streamer isn't featured on a website he claims to hate everything about?
Not getting it, here, people. Every argument in the situation is done to death. Finger pointing, ridiculous comparisons, screaming... it's turning into a big joke. IdrA isn't Destiny. Hell, EG isn't even Quantic. And TL isn't either of them. If you have a problem with IdrA, ranting at the TL mods about how they run their private, unaffiliated website probably isn't the ideal solution.
And if you want to talk about people being unfair, or evenhanded... go stand up for TB. He got temped for going apeshit, didn't see countless threads screaming at the mods about how mean and unfair they are. So again, I say hypocrites. You accuse the staff of favoritism, when they never claim to be impartial. But you do it yourselves.
So, let's get it all out in the open, folks, this doesn't seem to be about any of the things people claim it is, so let's call it what it is. Mad fans. It's not about freedom of speech, impartiality, or any of the other ridiculous excuses that get thrown around. And you'd probably even get further by just standing up and saying you're a fan. Hell, try using the contact link to say you won't be giving TL pageviews, and then actually backing off on the pageviews. Express your displeasure in the SAME way.
I doubt it will work, but it seems more effective than going over the same few tired, ridiculous arguments a few million more times.
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People who are censors should be above petty insults. Our gods should not be able to bleed. Fullstop.
Edit- Not everyone has invested stock in Destiny, some people are mad simply because of ethical issues
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I personally (Agree/Disagree) with (TL Staff/Destiny) about the recent ban and de-feature of Destiny. Using racist language is (Unacceptable/a divine mandate), and attacking the staff to defend such actions is (Ludicrous/Freedom of Speech).
TL choosing the content they feature or allow on their website is (Their right/gross censorship).
Anyone who disagrees with me has lovely hair.
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On May 05 2012 00:05 DYEAlabaster wrote: People who are censors should be above petty insults. Our gods should not be able to bleed. Fullstop.
Edit- Not everyone has invested stock in Destiny, some people are mad simply because of ethical issues
What ethical issues? They've never pretended to be even-handed.
And Intrigue wasn't the mod doing the banning, and by the sound of it, there was a pretty big discussion on how to handle the situation. That right there means Destiny got preferential treatment over an average user, who would have just gotten slapped down instantly for the same sort of behavior. I should know, I've gotten temped for less. I don't say that out of bitterness, just fact.
So, if we want to talk ethics, let's talk about the ethics of Destiny getting preferential treatment in self-promotion, and in having the whole staff discuss it before temping him, when he originally just got a warning.
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I wonder if this is a cultural thing. I live in Sweden and in gaming context, people don't give a shit about what terms you use. If someone goes up to someone who is gay and says "fucking faggot", then yes, that's a problem. Most often not because of the choice of words, but because there's another problem behind that (like homophobia or just personal grudge). As an example, my cousin who is gay frequently uses terms like "fuck, that's so gay" when gaming with me, and he doesn't care when I say the same things.
Most of the people I've met, including me, have the view of "words are just words, you give them power when you cower". So I think it's okay to use these kinds of words when gaming and you are only representing yourself, because only you will be held responsible for your actions.
However, and this is a big however, I do agree that when you are representing someone other than yourself, you have to respect their views. This goes for casting and playing for some organisation and to an extent just being part of one. That's why this issue is kind of hard to judge for me, because part of me feels like Destiny should be able to say and do whatever the fuck he wants on his stream because it's his own stream. Peoples opinions should not change who he is or how he conveys himself, instead, they can chose to disregard him if they don't like him. The problem comes in when he has Quantic logos in his overlay, suddenly he is representing an organisation and that means people will have to disregard not only him, but also Quantic because they don't want to condone his behavior.
Also, this has nothing to do with maturity. In fact, I think this shows how mature Destiny is because he has formed his own opinion that goes against what many believe to be right, and he stands by it with well formed arguments. This is a lot better than defending something just because "it's the way people say it should be", without thinking for yourself. This image kind of shows that behavior well, when people defend views they have never individually reflected over: + Show Spoiler +
I think it's sad that people get offended by words so easily, but what can you do about it? Pretty much nothing.
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I personally (Agree/Disagree) with (TL Staff/Destiny) about the recent ban and de-feature of Destiny. Using racist language is (kind of freedom of speech, you get the point i hope?), and attacking the staff to defend such actions is (Ludicrous/Freedom of Speech).
HOWEVER
TL choosing the content they feature or allow on their website is (Their right/gross censorship).
Anyone who disagrees with me has lovely hair.
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I think you've covered it.
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On May 05 2012 00:28 Snaiil wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wonder if this is a cultural thing. I live in Sweden and in gaming context, people don't give a shit about what terms you use. If someone goes up to someone who is gay and says "fucking faggot", then yes, that's a problem. Most often not because of the choice of words, but because there's another problem behind that (like homophobia or just personal grudge). As an example, my cousin who is gay frequently uses terms like "fuck, that's so gay" when gaming with me, and he doesn't care when I say the same things. Most of the people I've met, including me, have the view of "words are just words, you give them power when you cower". So I think it's okay to use these kinds of words when gaming and you are only representing yourself, because only you will be held responsible for your actions. However, and this is a big however, I do agree that when you are representing someone other than yourself, you have to respect their views. This goes for casting and playing for some organisation and to an extent just being part of one. That's why this issue is kind of hard to judge for me, because part of me feels like Destiny should be able to say and do whatever the fuck he wants on his stream because it's his own stream. Peoples opinions should not change who he is or how he conveys himself, instead, they can chose to disregard him if they don't like him. The problem comes in when he has Quantic logos in his overlay, suddenly he is representing an organisation and that means people will have to disregard not only him, but also Quantic because they don't want to condone his behavior. Also, this has nothing to do with maturity. In fact, I think this shows how mature Destiny is because he has formed his own opinion that goes against what many believe to be right, and he stands by it with well formed arguments. This is a lot better than defending something just because "it's the way people say it should be", without thinking for yourself. This image kind of shows that behavior well, when people defend views they have never individually reflected over: + Show Spoiler +I think it's sad that people get offended by words so easily, but what can you do about it? Pretty much nothing.
I think the thing people are forgetting, though, is that with the internet, you don't know who your audience is. Just like I consider content on Destiny's stream to be his prerogative (I just refuse to give him ad revenue), content in TL's featured streams is their prerogative.
As for why things are offensive, some people do just white-knight it up, but other people either have a legitimate reason to be offended by hate speech, or just aren't fans of a community they're a part of showing a face of intolerance.
Ignoring personal reasons for disliking hate speech, as an American, I've seen tons of lobbies trying to get video games banned for all kinds of stupid reasons. The last thing I'd want is to give those lobbies more ammunition.
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On May 05 2012 00:39 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 00:28 Snaiil wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wonder if this is a cultural thing. I live in Sweden and in gaming context, people don't give a shit about what terms you use. If someone goes up to someone who is gay and says "fucking faggot", then yes, that's a problem. Most often not because of the choice of words, but because there's another problem behind that (like homophobia or just personal grudge). As an example, my cousin who is gay frequently uses terms like "fuck, that's so gay" when gaming with me, and he doesn't care when I say the same things. Most of the people I've met, including me, have the view of "words are just words, you give them power when you cower". So I think it's okay to use these kinds of words when gaming and you are only representing yourself, because only you will be held responsible for your actions. However, and this is a big however, I do agree that when you are representing someone other than yourself, you have to respect their views. This goes for casting and playing for some organisation and to an extent just being part of one. That's why this issue is kind of hard to judge for me, because part of me feels like Destiny should be able to say and do whatever the fuck he wants on his stream because it's his own stream. Peoples opinions should not change who he is or how he conveys himself, instead, they can chose to disregard him if they don't like him. The problem comes in when he has Quantic logos in his overlay, suddenly he is representing an organisation and that means people will have to disregard not only him, but also Quantic because they don't want to condone his behavior. Also, this has nothing to do with maturity. In fact, I think this shows how mature Destiny is because he has formed his own opinion that goes against what many believe to be right, and he stands by it with well formed arguments. This is a lot better than defending something just because "it's the way people say it should be", without thinking for yourself. This image kind of shows that behavior well, when people defend views they have never individually reflected over: + Show Spoiler +I think it's sad that people get offended by words so easily, but what can you do about it? Pretty much nothing. I think the thing people are forgetting, though, is that with the internet, you don't know who your audience is. Just like I consider content on Destiny's stream to be his prerogative (I just refuse to give him ad revenue), content in TL's featured streams is their prerogative. As for why things are offensive, some people do just white-knight it up, but other people either have a legitimate reason to be offended by hate speech, or just aren't fans of a community they're a part of showing a face of intolerance. Ignoring personal reasons for disliking hate speech, as an American, I've seen tons of lobbies trying to get video games banned for all kinds of stupid reasons. The last thing I'd want is to give those lobbies more ammunition.
Basically this. My reasons for opposing destiny is that the more people like him the the angry WoW kids becomes the popular face of gaming, the easier it is for the mainstream to marginalize gaming.
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I think this should be the official "Express how you feel about Destiny thread." Copy and paste the op's first paragraph:
I personally (Agree/Disagree) with (TL Staff/Destiny) about the recent ban and de-feature of Destiny. Using racist language is (Unacceptable/a divine mandate), and attacking the staff to defend such actions is (Ludicrous/Freedom of Speech).
Then make your opinion! Simple as that.
I agree with op btw. Take that haters!
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On May 05 2012 00:39 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 00:28 Snaiil wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wonder if this is a cultural thing. I live in Sweden and in gaming context, people don't give a shit about what terms you use. If someone goes up to someone who is gay and says "fucking faggot", then yes, that's a problem. Most often not because of the choice of words, but because there's another problem behind that (like homophobia or just personal grudge). As an example, my cousin who is gay frequently uses terms like "fuck, that's so gay" when gaming with me, and he doesn't care when I say the same things. Most of the people I've met, including me, have the view of "words are just words, you give them power when you cower". So I think it's okay to use these kinds of words when gaming and you are only representing yourself, because only you will be held responsible for your actions. However, and this is a big however, I do agree that when you are representing someone other than yourself, you have to respect their views. This goes for casting and playing for some organisation and to an extent just being part of one. That's why this issue is kind of hard to judge for me, because part of me feels like Destiny should be able to say and do whatever the fuck he wants on his stream because it's his own stream. Peoples opinions should not change who he is or how he conveys himself, instead, they can chose to disregard him if they don't like him. The problem comes in when he has Quantic logos in his overlay, suddenly he is representing an organisation and that means people will have to disregard not only him, but also Quantic because they don't want to condone his behavior. Also, this has nothing to do with maturity. In fact, I think this shows how mature Destiny is because he has formed his own opinion that goes against what many believe to be right, and he stands by it with well formed arguments. This is a lot better than defending something just because "it's the way people say it should be", without thinking for yourself. This image kind of shows that behavior well, when people defend views they have never individually reflected over: + Show Spoiler +I think it's sad that people get offended by words so easily, but what can you do about it? Pretty much nothing. I think the thing people are forgetting, though, is that with the internet, you don't know who your audience is. Just like I consider content on Destiny's stream to be his prerogative (I just refuse to give him ad revenue), content in TL's featured streams is their prerogative. As for why things are offensive, some people do just white-knight it up, but other people either have a legitimate reason to be offended by hate speech, or just aren't fans of a community they're a part of showing a face of intolerance. Ignoring personal reasons for disliking hate speech, as an American, I've seen tons of lobbies trying to get video games banned for all kinds of stupid reasons. The last thing I'd want is to give those lobbies more ammunition. I respect your opinion, but I do not fully agree with it. It doesn't really matter if you don't know your audience as long as you aren't forcing anyone to view your content, because every viewer can decide if they like the content or not and therefore themselves decide if they want to promote it or not. They don't have to change the content because they don't agree with it, instead they should simply just turn away from it.
I do agree with the fact that TL has the right to chose what streams they want to have featured, it is their decision to make because it is their site. Destiny should not be held responsible for representing TL in a bad way when he was featured though, because it was TLs decision to feature him in the first place, not his own.
As for lobbies trying to get rid of video games, I don't see how this could help them get more ammunition for it. I can see how someone would argue that Destiny is representing gamers, and therefore shouldn't use these kinds of words. But to me that's a very far stretch, like saying I represent all swedes because of my views. You can't ban something because of the users, but rather it has to be the content that is faulty. If StarCraft 2 conveyed racist/homophobic messages, then that would give them more ammunition, this however, won't.
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I personally (Agree/Disagree/Don't give a shit) with (TL Staff/Destiny) about the recent ban and de-feature of Destiny. Using racist language is (Unacceptable/a divine mandate/stupid), and attacking the staff to defend such actions is (Ludicrous/retarded use of Freedom of Speech).
TL choosing the content they feature or allow on their website is (Their goddamn right, it's a private hosted site/gross censorship).
I don't care what happened to Destiny: I like his stream and general style, his remarks were sort-of out of line (BM happens, but "gook" really? What is wrong these days with a simple "motherfucker" or other generic swearing?) but the "community" reaction was blown way out of proportion. It's sad that Quantic and their sponsors had to get a lot of flack for this nonsense and I certainly hope that they won't get any lasting crap after this.
I'm happy though that Destiny's stream covers his income, so that he can BM now without repercussions for anyone else.
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On May 05 2012 01:08 Snaiil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 00:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 05 2012 00:28 Snaiil wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wonder if this is a cultural thing. I live in Sweden and in gaming context, people don't give a shit about what terms you use. If someone goes up to someone who is gay and says "fucking faggot", then yes, that's a problem. Most often not because of the choice of words, but because there's another problem behind that (like homophobia or just personal grudge). As an example, my cousin who is gay frequently uses terms like "fuck, that's so gay" when gaming with me, and he doesn't care when I say the same things. Most of the people I've met, including me, have the view of "words are just words, you give them power when you cower". So I think it's okay to use these kinds of words when gaming and you are only representing yourself, because only you will be held responsible for your actions. However, and this is a big however, I do agree that when you are representing someone other than yourself, you have to respect their views. This goes for casting and playing for some organisation and to an extent just being part of one. That's why this issue is kind of hard to judge for me, because part of me feels like Destiny should be able to say and do whatever the fuck he wants on his stream because it's his own stream. Peoples opinions should not change who he is or how he conveys himself, instead, they can chose to disregard him if they don't like him. The problem comes in when he has Quantic logos in his overlay, suddenly he is representing an organisation and that means people will have to disregard not only him, but also Quantic because they don't want to condone his behavior. Also, this has nothing to do with maturity. In fact, I think this shows how mature Destiny is because he has formed his own opinion that goes against what many believe to be right, and he stands by it with well formed arguments. This is a lot better than defending something just because "it's the way people say it should be", without thinking for yourself. This image kind of shows that behavior well, when people defend views they have never individually reflected over: + Show Spoiler +I think it's sad that people get offended by words so easily, but what can you do about it? Pretty much nothing. I think the thing people are forgetting, though, is that with the internet, you don't know who your audience is. Just like I consider content on Destiny's stream to be his prerogative (I just refuse to give him ad revenue), content in TL's featured streams is their prerogative. As for why things are offensive, some people do just white-knight it up, but other people either have a legitimate reason to be offended by hate speech, or just aren't fans of a community they're a part of showing a face of intolerance. Ignoring personal reasons for disliking hate speech, as an American, I've seen tons of lobbies trying to get video games banned for all kinds of stupid reasons. The last thing I'd want is to give those lobbies more ammunition. I respect your opinion, but I do not fully agree with it. It doesn't really matter if you don't know your audience as long as you aren't forcing anyone to view your content, because every viewer can decide if they like the content or not and therefore themselves decide if they want to promote it or not. They don't have to change the content because they don't agree with it, instead they should simply just turn away from it. I do agree with the fact that TL has the right to chose what streams they want to have featured, it is their decision to make because it is their site. Destiny should not be held responsible for representing TL in a bad way when he was featured though, because it was TLs decision to feature him in the first place, not his own. As for lobbies trying to get rid of video games, I don't see how this could help them get more ammunition for it. I can see how someone would argue that Destiny is representing gamers, and therefore shouldn't use these kinds of words. But to me that's a very far stretch, like saying I represent all swedes because of my views. You can't ban something because of the users, but rather it has to be the content that is faulty. If StarCraft 2 conveyed racist/homophobic messages, then that would give them more ammunition, this however, won't.
People try to get WoW banned/boycotted because people play unhealthy amounts of WoW. I don't think it really qualifies as country bashing if you agree with me (an American) that America's legal system sometimes makes no sense.
People want McDonalds to get legal trouble because people eat too much McDonalds.
People win huge gobs of cash for spilling coffee in their laps.
An unfortunate number of Americans dislike personal responsibility in a consumer/seller relationship. So yes, a very popular streamer using that kind of language gives the lobbies ammunition to use.
Like I said, I personally just never watch Destiny. But I also think his use of that kind of language can have negative repercussions outside himself. I do, however, wish more people could do what you are, and separate his stream usage from his TL habits. Yes, I despise his streaming habits, but until he earned himself a ban through other means, I didn't give a shit that it was featured. Hell, I still don't. I just can't understand the hate TL is getting for their decision to make the ban more significant.
Especially since most of the arguments being used don't even require much effort to flip around on the people throwing them out there.
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Hahaha, I was expected some generic Destiny ramble blog, and I got one, but I was amused! :p
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On May 05 2012 02:16 Azzur wrote: Hahaha, I was expected some generic Destiny ramble blog, and I got one, but I was amused! :p
Well, it's not like the title gave any false impressions...
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You forgot esports, eSports and ESPORTS and ofcourse hurting/helping esports.
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On May 05 2012 02:23 Wortie wrote: You forgot esports, eSports and ESPORTS and ofcourse hurting/helping esports.
I don't have the economics knowledge to sort out the multiple chains of cause and effect between an "entertainer", sponsors, teams, and everything else involved to even BEGIN to determine what's best for esports overall. I can safely make the educated guess that certain lobby groups would have a field day with Destiny's behavior, but esports is bigger than TL, and bigger than Destiny. It's bigger than SC2. So without a degree and hefty analysis, it's better to stick with an editorial.
Sorry, does that mean I'm doing it wrong?
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United States5162 Posts
I just don't get why this became as issue all of a sudden. It's not like Destiny's behavior wasn't like this from the beginning.
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On May 05 2012 02:36 Myles wrote: I just don't get why this became as issue all of a sudden. It's not like Destiny's behavior wasn't like this from the beginning.
It wasn't "all of a sudden". It's come up tons of times before. It's just that this time, it was the catalyst for a reaction from Destiny that got him banned for actions on TL. Add in that people realized after the Orb thing that consumers actually have some power in the market, and all of a sudden something happened.
I do think it's hysterical that there are actually people who seem to think he's somehow taking the moral high ground by refusing to fix his reprehensible behavior though.
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On May 05 2012 00:39 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 00:28 Snaiil wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I wonder if this is a cultural thing. I live in Sweden and in gaming context, people don't give a shit about what terms you use. If someone goes up to someone who is gay and says "fucking faggot", then yes, that's a problem. Most often not because of the choice of words, but because there's another problem behind that (like homophobia or just personal grudge). As an example, my cousin who is gay frequently uses terms like "fuck, that's so gay" when gaming with me, and he doesn't care when I say the same things. Most of the people I've met, including me, have the view of "words are just words, you give them power when you cower". So I think it's okay to use these kinds of words when gaming and you are only representing yourself, because only you will be held responsible for your actions. However, and this is a big however, I do agree that when you are representing someone other than yourself, you have to respect their views. This goes for casting and playing for some organisation and to an extent just being part of one. That's why this issue is kind of hard to judge for me, because part of me feels like Destiny should be able to say and do whatever the fuck he wants on his stream because it's his own stream. Peoples opinions should not change who he is or how he conveys himself, instead, they can chose to disregard him if they don't like him. The problem comes in when he has Quantic logos in his overlay, suddenly he is representing an organisation and that means people will have to disregard not only him, but also Quantic because they don't want to condone his behavior. Also, this has nothing to do with maturity. In fact, I think this shows how mature Destiny is because he has formed his own opinion that goes against what many believe to be right, and he stands by it with well formed arguments. This is a lot better than defending something just because "it's the way people say it should be", without thinking for yourself. This image kind of shows that behavior well, when people defend views they have never individually reflected over: + Show Spoiler +I think it's sad that people get offended by words so easily, but what can you do about it? Pretty much nothing. I think the thing people are forgetting, though, is that with the internet, you don't know who your audience is. Just like I consider content on Destiny's stream to be his prerogative (I just refuse to give him ad revenue), content in TL's featured streams is their prerogative. As for why things are offensive, some people do just white-knight it up, but other people either have a legitimate reason to be offended by hate speech, or just aren't fans of a community they're a part of showing a face of intolerance. Ignoring personal reasons for disliking hate speech, as an American, I've seen tons of lobbies trying to get video games banned for all kinds of stupid reasons. The last thing I'd want is to give those lobbies more ammunition. Hit the nail on the head for me. I'm asian and I wouldn't give a fuck if he called me racist names. But some people do, and you have to respect that. And I don't want to be associated with a community that is known for accepting or condoning racist or homophobic language.
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United States5162 Posts
On May 05 2012 02:42 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:36 Myles wrote: I just don't get why this became as issue all of a sudden. It's not like Destiny's behavior wasn't like this from the beginning. It wasn't "all of a sudden". It's come up tons of times before. It's just that this time, it was the catalyst for a reaction from Destiny that got him banned for actions on TL. Add in that people realized after the Orb thing that consumers actually have some power in the market, and all of a sudden something happened. I do think it's hysterical that there are actually people who seem to think he's somehow taking the moral high ground by refusing to fix his reprehensible behavior though. I know this has come up before, it just seemed like people were over it and just accepted that was who Destiny is. With Orb it wasn't a common thing to see him using racial slurs and such.
And Destiny completely deserved to get banned even if I do think there's some legitimacy to the double standard applied to racial slurs. He's certainly no white knight defending free speech and the 'evolution' of language. He uses slurs to get a rise out of people then laughs and calls THEM hypocrites when they do. Sadly, a lot of people like to see that kind of stuff.
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I dream for a future with a community based on mutual respect and equality of ideas.
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On May 05 2012 02:54 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:42 JingleHell wrote:On May 05 2012 02:36 Myles wrote: I just don't get why this became as issue all of a sudden. It's not like Destiny's behavior wasn't like this from the beginning. It wasn't "all of a sudden". It's come up tons of times before. It's just that this time, it was the catalyst for a reaction from Destiny that got him banned for actions on TL. Add in that people realized after the Orb thing that consumers actually have some power in the market, and all of a sudden something happened. I do think it's hysterical that there are actually people who seem to think he's somehow taking the moral high ground by refusing to fix his reprehensible behavior though. I know this has come up before, it just seemed like people were over it and just accepted that was who Destiny is. With Orb it wasn't a common thing to see him using racial slurs and such. And Destiny completely deserved to get banned even if I do think there's some legitimacy to the double standard applied to racial slurs. He's certainly no white knight defending free speech and the 'evolution' of language. He uses slurs to get a rise out of people then laughs and calls THEM hypocrites when they do. Sadly, a lot of people like to see that kind of stuff.
I think if people want to go after double standards, they need to consider all the ramifications, separate it from attempting to defend Destiny, do it later when things have calmed down some, and put together a solid, rational argument for it.
The double standard argument, in this situation, mostly looks like a bad excuse to attack TL in defense of Destiny. Even if there are some people who legitimately aren't doing that, the way they're going about it, right now, makes it look that way.
And given that the double standard has protected him from moderation on multiple occasions due to his popularity getting him an exception on self promotion, it's a silly argument to bring up where he's concerned in the first place.
On May 05 2012 03:05 sirachman wrote: I dream for a future with a community based on mutual respect and equality of ideas.
Mutual respect... I assume you don't expect it to include any members of the human race, if you mean an online community.
Equality of ideas? Not all ideas are equal. Sorry. Some ideas are stupid, some are wrong, some are good, some are bad.
The holocaust had a lot of it's roots in eugenics, which can sound like a reasonably cool idea. Anyways, what idea are you hoping would get more credit than it currently does?
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The arguments on tl regarding this topic are insane. I honestly can't see how one can argue that it's acceptable behavior. While I spit the word faggot and many other potentially 'racist offensive' words regularly, that is within a given context which I deem acceptable. And, as I understand, Destiny feels he is within right to call someone a gook, in that context, and the following consequences are a gross mistreatment. What I don't understand, is how someone can reach this conclusion, based on the argument that words can be said, but have no meaning, or 'weight' to them, IN THE CONTEXT DESTINY IS IN. He has thousands of people watching. Chances are, a large proportion of those are Asian. The word 'gook' was said in a manner that would be no different to a white person calling a black person a nigger (offensively). It is beyond clear that destiny's intent was to offend his opponent, having been all inn-ed, and the word 'faggot' was(is?) no longer a sufficient insult to display his frustration. Impulsive, of course, which I understand very well as I share the same rage response as he does. In fact, I am much worse - I tell people to kill themselves, get cancer etc etc. I am that guy. However, I don't have 5000 people watching me, those of which who potentially have had an experience relating to my insult - whether it be a loved one with cancer, or an experience with suicide or suicidal tendencies, or an experience where you have been explicitly attacked for the sole reason of being a particular race. The viewer count, is what makes desinty's actions completely unacceptable in my opinion at least. While I agree that the action itself is generally unacceptable anyway, destiny's repercussions given his context are deserved. Making the argument that people should just 'man-up' because 'they are just words' is a massive cop out, and is harmful to any community. Whether Destiny likes it or not, or wants to be or not, by having thousands of viewers and sponsors - those that provide his INCOME, he is RESPONSIBLE for his actions. As far as I can tell, he just sounds like a teenager, blaming the 'flaws and hypocrisies of society' for him not being able to control his temper. Deep down, I'm sure he knows that given a second chance, he wouldn't call him a gook and would just stick to faggot. Because he isn't racist, but he is by all means arrogant and insensitive to those he may potentially offend, and that is more than enough reason to be dropped from a team and banned from TL for 30 days.
The guy really just needs to grow up, and stop playing the victim. If he had the insight he claims he does, he would understand that society is the way it is and some people - good people, would be genuinely offended by that racial slur - ALBEIT AN IRRATIONAL RESPONSE. It's kind of like {EDIT: fail analogy here}. Thatz just the way it is.
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run.at.me:
You might want to add a disclaimer there at the end, that you're not comparing being offended by racism to having downs. It's pretty obvious in context that's not what you mean, but given the knee-jerk TL;DR nature of a lot of stuff regarding Destiny right now, it might be safer.
Unless of course, you actually WERE making that comparison and were trying to be subtle about it. In which case, feel free to not add the disclaimer.
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On May 05 2012 02:42 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 02:36 Myles wrote: I just don't get why this became as issue all of a sudden. It's not like Destiny's behavior wasn't like this from the beginning. It wasn't "all of a sudden". It's come up tons of times before. It's just that this time, it was the catalyst for a reaction from Destiny that got him banned for actions on TL. Add in that people realized after the Orb thing that consumers actually have some power in the market, and all of a sudden something happened. I do think it's hysterical that there are actually people who seem to think he's somehow taking the moral high ground by refusing to fix his reprehensible behavior though. It wouldn't have been that big of a deal if Destiny would have apologized instead of insulting tlstaff/ fuel the fire. he digged his own grave and still does tt
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At least TL is a fun source of drama. But it does make you think. I have to say I'm more convinced of Destiny's rationale so far though. You don't seem to explicitly argue this point, but I wanted to comment on it.
Now let's get complicated. Some words are MORE offensive than others. Yes, every person has their own sliding scale, as we've seen a million times over lately. For some people, certain words aren't offensive. Well, guess what, that means YOU don't take offense at those words. Cookie?
Cookie . But you do have limits right - I mean there are people who could be very sensitive and who are intensely offended by any disparaging commentary; it doesn't have to be a racial slur. Would you say that, because racial slurs generally offend more people, more deeply than other words might (i.e. calling something/someone gay, retarded, etc.), that the usage of those words should not be used? Or should all potentially offensive words not be used (including gay, retarded)?
There are so many unanswered questions in my mind. To what extent does the original definition of a word really matter? To what extent did Destiny's actions actually offend people, and how many people? How many people truly believe context is irrelevant - and are inflicted with deep pain if they see a word written randomly, by itself in an open space? If the way he uses racial slurs has the potential to be offensive, then can't that same argument apply to countless other special circumstances where there are unique individuals who are uniquely offended by certain things - or does it not matter when the number of people who could be offended are small?
This really seems like an all or nothing proposition. If people really care about moral values, and in principle its about ensuring no one is offended, then they have to be a lot more serious in general. We can't use any disparaging terms, there can be no rage/anger to prevent hurting sensitive gamers, and obviously no racism, no sexist commentary, or homophobic words being used no matter how jokingly.
At times it makes me think, what is the standard that we should be appealing to. Should it be absolute, not using terms that could offend anyone? Should it be, lets not use terms that offend a large number of people deeply, but allow terms that offend a minority deeply? Or should all terms be allowed, but context highlighted as the distinguishing factor between intentional and unintentional insults. Personally I think the last option is best - because anything else is either extreme (the first option) or a double standard (the second).
Anyway...I might not come back to this as its pretty scary to read some people's negative responses (I am pretty sensitive), but damn it I get addicted to typing in responses on TL for some reason lol. Thought I would just post my impressions
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Context is king; there is a big difference between using a word, and actually meaning to be defamatory or derogatory with it. I've seen it here more than any other online community I've been part of, and that's this idea that people are somehow morally superior because they whine about the use of a word.
I've never seen so many thin-skinned people that aren't even part of the group/ethnicity/etc... being "insulted." They just like to announce their upstanding ethical nature to pump themselves up, and to protect something that they aren't even part of. Like many people have expressed on this website, even if my group/ethnicity was to be used in a negative way, it won't bother me cause I'm bigger than that.
Whether you want to believe they meant what they said or not, choosing to be offended doesn't accomplish anything other than showcasing your mental weakness. The thing we used to all be taught as kids (sticks and stones) seems to have evaporated in this online realm and that worries me. Are we breeding a psychologically weak generation bent on complaining their way to things?
And sure, TL can run their website however they want, but if there isn't consistency, you can bet people will be all over that. If TL is projecting itself to be a certain place where rules and actions are upheld, and they only follow through some of the time, it breaks down this notion that they are operating in a certain way. It also reeks of favortism and an individual attack on the very person that they dish punishment out to.
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Jesus christ this thing has inflated and gone WAY too far.
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On May 05 2012 04:29 radscorpion9 wrote:At least TL is a fun source of drama. But it does make you think. I have to say I'm more convinced of Destiny's rationale so far though. You don't seem to explicitly argue this point, but I wanted to comment on it. Show nested quote +Now let's get complicated. Some words are MORE offensive than others. Yes, every person has their own sliding scale, as we've seen a million times over lately. For some people, certain words aren't offensive. Well, guess what, that means YOU don't take offense at those words. Cookie? Cookie . But you do have limits right - I mean there are people who could be very sensitive and who are intensely offended by any disparaging commentary; it doesn't have to be a racial slur. Would you say that, because racial slurs generally offend more people, more deeply than other words might (i.e. calling something/someone gay, retarded, etc.), that the usage of those words should not be used? Or should all potentially offensive words not be used (including gay, retarded)? There are so many unanswered questions in my mind. To what extent does the original definition of a word really matter? To what extent did Destiny's actions actually offend people, and how many people? How many people truly believe context is irrelevant - and are inflicted with deep pain if they see a word written randomly, by itself in an open space? If the way he uses racial slurs has the potential to be offensive, then can't that same argument apply to countless other special circumstances where there are unique individuals who are uniquely offended by certain things - or does it not matter when the number of people who could be offended are small? This really seems like an all or nothing proposition. If people really care about moral values, and in principle its about ensuring no one is offended, then they have to be a lot more serious in general. We can't use any disparaging terms, there can be no rage/anger to prevent hurting sensitive gamers, and obviously no racism, no sexist commentary, or homophobic words being used no matter how jokingly. At times it makes me think, what is the standard that we should be appealing to. Should it be absolute, not using terms that could offend anyone? Should it be, lets not use terms that offend a large number of people deeply, but allow terms that offend a minority deeply? Or should all terms be allowed, but context highlighted as the distinguishing factor between intentional and unintentional insults. Personally I think the last option is best - because anything else is either extreme (the first option) or a double standard (the second). Anyway...I might not come back to this as its pretty scary to read some people's negative responses (I am pretty sensitive), but damn it I get addicted to typing in responses on TL for some reason lol. Thought I would just post my impressions
Remember the scene in Die Hard 3 where Bruce Willis is in Harlem wearing a sign that says "I hate niggers"? I kinda envision saying "gook" on a stream featured on TL as being similar. Now imagine if, instead of explaining to the one guy who wasn't about to stab him, Bruce Willis had spit in that dude's face and kicked him in the balls, for the horrendous offense of trying to help him get his ass out of the situation?
That's what Destiny did by raging at Intrigue.
Like I said in some of my earlier replies, Destiny can say whatever he wants on his stream. But TL can feature or unfeature whatever stream they want.
But if you're going to attempt to entertain by giving offense, you should be ready to deal with the backlash. And if you try to deal with the backlash on a site that's not under your control, you should follow their rules. Seems simple to me.
On May 05 2012 04:45 divito wrote: Context is king; there is a big difference between using a word, and actually meaning to be defamatory or derogatory with it. I've seen it here more than any other online community I've been part of, and that's this idea that people are somehow morally superior because they whine about the use of a word.
I've never seen so many thin-skinned people that aren't even part of the group/ethnicity/etc... being "insulted." They just like to announce their upstanding ethical nature to pump themselves up, and to protect something that they aren't even part of. Like many people have expressed on this website, even if my group/ethnicity was to be used in a negative way, it won't bother me cause I'm bigger than that.
Whether you want to believe they meant what they said or not, choosing to be offended doesn't accomplish anything other than showcasing your mental weakness. The thing we used to all be taught as kids (sticks and stones) seems to have evaporated in this online realm and that worries me. Are we breeding a psychologically weak generation bent on complaining their way to things?
And sure, TL can run their website however they want, but if there isn't consistency, you can bet people will be all over that. If TL is projecting itself to be a certain place where rules and actions are upheld, and they only follow through some of the time, it breaks down this notion that they are operating in a certain way. It also reeks of favortism and an individual attack on the very person that they dish punishment out to.
Fine. Here's some context. I just lost a game. I'm mad at the way I just lost the game. I call my opponent a word with zero polite definition. Clearly, in that context, I'm saying I want that other person to father my children, right? Yeah, whatever.
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On May 05 2012 05:12 JingleHell wrote: Fine. Here's some context. I just lost a game. I'm mad at the way I just lost the game. I call my opponent a word with zero polite definition. Clearly, in that context, I'm saying I want that other person to father my children, right? Yeah, whatever. If I'm your opponent, I understand that you're upset because you lost. Your ability to know anything about me and make a generalization doesn't mean that your message was sincere. I'd have to be living in a bubble to have a problem with that.
Whether you say "Cheeser!" or "Bastard!" or "Nigger!" doesn't really change anything based on which you use, you're still dealing with your frustration; that's the point of context. There would have to be a diatribe of conversation to identify real hate speech, and not just one word appearing on my screen, especially not after a loss.
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JingleHell has a good head on his shoulders. Couldn't agree more with how you laid it out.
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On May 05 2012 05:18 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:12 JingleHell wrote: Fine. Here's some context. I just lost a game. I'm mad at the way I just lost the game. I call my opponent a word with zero polite definition. Clearly, in that context, I'm saying I want that other person to father my children, right? Yeah, whatever. If I'm your opponent, I understand that you're upset because you lost. Your ability to know anything about me and make a generalization doesn't mean that your message was sincere. I'd have to be living in a bubble to have a problem with that.
Or, if you've ever had any kind of hate speech directed at you, you'd be offended at the mentality behind use of any of it.
You'd have to be living in a bubble to not understand that.
All the accusations of thin skin, on behalf of someone else who spent days raging about TL because of his ban/defeature, smack of irony anyways.
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On May 05 2012 05:21 JingleHell wrote: Or, if you've ever had any kind of hate speech directed at you, you'd be offended at the mentality behind use of any of it.
I've had plenty (while I'm not one of the usual suspects), and I still don't agree with taking offence to it and never have. It doesn't help me, and only means I'm psychologically weak. We were taught as kids the simple idiom of "sticks and stones;" you can't tell me that children have higher tolerance than an adolescent or adult. That's a really scary proposition for our future generations.
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On May 05 2012 05:31 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:21 JingleHell wrote: Or, if you've ever had any kind of hate speech directed at you, you'd be offended at the mentality behind use of any of it.
I've had plenty (while I'm not one of the usual suspects), and I still don't agree with taking offence to it and never have. It doesn't help me, and only means I'm psychologically weak. We were taught as kids the simple idiom of "sticks and stones;" you can't tell me that children have higher tolerance than an adolescent or adult. That's a really scary proposition for our future generations.
I'd expect that a need to portray a tough outward appearance at all times is more likely to be a sign of serious mental issues than taking offense at something that has nothing BUT offensive connotations.
Besides, sticks and stones, right? So why is Destiny so offended that people call him a racist? The word doesn't mean anything, so why does he care? Why does he try to argue the point? Why does he rage and insult people? Why do sponsors care about those words? Sticks and stones, man! Totally not offensive.
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JingleHell, I don't think that people take issue with Destiny's ban from TL. I think what's really annoying people is the go to the sponsors right away sort of thing.
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On May 05 2012 05:50 Zorkmid wrote: JingleHell, I don't think that people take issue with Destiny's ban from TL. I think what's really annoying people is the go to the sponsors right away sort of thing.
Quite a few do, actually, from what I've seen. Tons of people are screaming for various people's heads on platters because of the double standard.
Yeah, it might be slightly lame to go to sponsors before going to teams, but then, when the first thread about it was full of ranting about how Quantic doesn't care what Destiny does on his stream because it's his stream, then if you want to do something about it, maybe leaning on the sponsors is the best bet.
Now I do somewhat agree that going to sponsors before teams is kinda going overboard, but that's probably been 10% or less of the rage related to this that I've seen. Most of it is about TL's double standards, or the community's double standard, or various other screaming that mostly boils down to Destiny fans being very pissed that they saw a downside to toxic behavior.
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On May 05 2012 05:37 JingleHell wrote: I'd expect that a need to portray a tough outward appearance at all times is more likely to be a sign of serious mental issues than taking offense at something that has nothing BUT offensive connotations. It's not toughness to be dismissive of someone's ignorance, at least in my opinion. That's generally all that insults and hate speech are anyway. It's a coping mechanism for whatever is ailing them; and to me, being a white knight is just as much a mechanism for something deeper.
On May 05 2012 05:37 JingleHell wrote: Besides, sticks and stones, right? So why is Destiny so offended that people call him a racist? The word doesn't mean anything, so why does he care? Why does he try to argue the point? Why does he rage and insult people? Why do sponsors care about those words? Sticks and stones, man! Totally not offensive.
I wouldn't necessarily call that analogous. He would probably view it as libellous or slanderous and being spoken as fact; whereas use of the word nigger, gook, wop, all apply to actual ethnicities. I'm splitting hairs, but I don't like the situation in any sense really.
Sponsors will back whatever the majority of their audience/customers back. This has been seen in lots of different industries and markets. It's definitely not something I agree with, but they're primary motive is profit and if they see their action as protecting the bigger group that has the potential to increase their revenue, they will do it.
And just to put it out there, while I understand the use of sarcasm and the way you've presented your argument, I bear no ill will towards you or your ideas and don't take your stance personally. We're having a decently spirited debate.
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On May 05 2012 06:23 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:37 JingleHell wrote: I'd expect that a need to portray a tough outward appearance at all times is more likely to be a sign of serious mental issues than taking offense at something that has nothing BUT offensive connotations. It's not toughness to be dismissive of someone's ignorance, at least in my opinion. That's generally all that insults and hate speech are anyway. It's a coping mechanism for whatever is ailing them; and to me, being a white knight is just as much a mechanism for something deeper. Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:37 JingleHell wrote: Besides, sticks and stones, right? So why is Destiny so offended that people call him a racist? The word doesn't mean anything, so why does he care? Why does he try to argue the point? Why does he rage and insult people? Why do sponsors care about those words? Sticks and stones, man! Totally not offensive.
I wouldn't necessarily call that analogous. He would probably view it as libellous or slanderous and being spoken as fact; whereas use of the word nigger, gook, wop, all apply to actual ethnicities. I'm splitting hairs, but I don't like the situation in any sense really. Sponsors will back whatever the majority of their audience/customers back. This has been seen in lots of different industries and markets. It's definitely not something I agree with, but they're primary motive is profit and if they see their action as protecting the bigger group that has the potential to increase their revenue, they will do it. And just to put it out there, while I understand the use of sarcasm and the way you've presented your argument, I bear no ill will towards you or your ideas and don't take your stance personally. We're having a decently spirited debate.
I think you'd have a VERY hard time proving slander or libel regarding people accusing him of racism. He certainly spews enough racist rhetoric to convince people of it.
I'd say the difference between playing white knight in a potentially negative way, and having a serious issue with ignorant hate speech comes down to why you dislike it. I think throughout this blog and replies, I've listed enough reasons for people to not want him to spew that filth, all legitimate.
Use of racial slurs is WORSE than calling someone who uses them racist, clearly. Even if he isn't, he provides people a legitimate reason to believe it. It's easy enough to assume that the reason he says it's not racism is merely not having the moral fiber to stand up and take responsibility for the filth that falls out of his mouth. (Or being afraid of getting his ass kicked, also plausible.)
As for the sponsors reaction? Well, clearly enough people have a problem with that kind of speech that they consider the better bottom line to come from taking a stand against it. Maybe people should wonder WHY so many people are against it. It's not like the people who don't like hate speech are some tiny vocal minority, obviously.
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I didn't think it was possible for anyone to add something genuinely new and intelligent to the ongoing debate.
JingleHell you have proved me wrong. Well done.
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On May 05 2012 07:22 Deleuze wrote: I didn't think it was possible for anyone to add something genuinely new and intelligent to the ongoing debate.
JingleHell you have proved me wrong. Well done.
Oops. Shouldn't have gotten lazy on the template part of things. This was originally just going to be purely a joke about how no matter which side of things people were on, you could just sub a few words here and there and instantly have the counter argument.
Damn me, accidentally discussing my opinion.
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On May 05 2012 07:55 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 07:22 Deleuze wrote: I didn't think it was possible for anyone to add something genuinely new and intelligent to the ongoing debate.
JingleHell you have proved me wrong. Well done. Oops. Shouldn't have gotten lazy on the template part of things. This was originally just going to be purely a joke about how no matter which side of things people were on, you could just sub a few words here and there and instantly have the counter argument. Damn me, accidentally discussing my opinion.
I meant intelligent as in adding some 'meta' analysis to the issue rather delving into the polarized unresolvable back and forth by choosing a side your thoughts attempted to understand it as such.
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On May 06 2012 03:37 Deleuze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 07:55 JingleHell wrote:On May 05 2012 07:22 Deleuze wrote: I didn't think it was possible for anyone to add something genuinely new and intelligent to the ongoing debate.
JingleHell you have proved me wrong. Well done. Oops. Shouldn't have gotten lazy on the template part of things. This was originally just going to be purely a joke about how no matter which side of things people were on, you could just sub a few words here and there and instantly have the counter argument. Damn me, accidentally discussing my opinion. I meant intelligent as in adding some 'meta' analysis to the issue rather delving into the polarized unresolvable back and forth by choosing a side your thoughts attempted to understand it as such.
Well, voicing an opinion without knowing why I formulated it would be silly.
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How about emailing teamliquid and own3d.tv asking why they support hate speech?
Destiny CONTINUES to use "gook, nigger, faggot" as of TODAY 5.9.2012 .. why are you giving him a platform to spew his hatred?
Does Own3d.tv and Teamliquid stand behind this kind of hate speech? Is this appropriate for a featured streamer on Own3d.tv and Teamliquid? Please advise. Sent to pr@own3d.tv, partner@own3d.tv, sales@own3d.tv, teamliquid's contact us form (lol). Anyone out there who feels this kind of language is unacceptable, please e-mail.
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/te4ry/destiny_continues_to_use_gook_nigger_faggot_tl/
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