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After I lost to Kiante in our Bo5 grudge match I became very frustrated by the fact that my understanding of TvP was limited to a few terrible home brewed two base all-ins. I knew how to do "The Flash Build" but only the terribly out of date Wikipedia version, and I did not know how to adapt it based on my scouting which ended up resulting in me having very low success with it. So several months later I decided to teach myself the "correct way" of playing each of the terran matchups.
I downloaded relatively recent vods of Terrans who were the best at their respective matchups and categorized them by their opening, their opponents opening, and what followups each player did based on their scouting. Not only did this give me massive perspective on which conditions call for which builds, but it also allowed me to analyze many very similar games side by side and notice the minor adaptations in build and tactics progamers employ based on their scouting (or sometimes blindly) to get ahead. This project immensely increased my success in game, and allowed me to be that dude in the chat that knows more than everyone else about why "X" progamer lost to "X" progamer.
This is the study material I used. I have quit Starcraft so I don't really want to take the time to write a guide on how each matchup was played 2010-2012. Also writing a guide doesn't teach players how to learn matchups, rather it just teaches them how to do a rigid build with a few adaptations. I consider this more valuable, especially to a newer player. In my opinion the hardest thing in Starcraft is learning how to improve, and this is one very effective tactic to learning the strategy in BW (that also happens to be the one that Ver advocates). It is not completely up to date since I quit BW 2 months ago and the metagame has shifted (especially in TvZ). However for the most part it is an extremely useful resource, and I invite anyone interested to use it.
Terran vs Terran: Flash and Fantasy
http://tinyurl.com/89n82y7
+ Show Spoiler +
TvT is the least understood matchup in the foreign scene. Simply categorizing these vods taught me more about the matchup than any person I know. A lot of other top Terran's could have been included but I stopped playing BW before I had time to sort in Leta,Sea, Last, or Skyhigh (who sorta sucks now :/).
Terran vs Protoss: Flash, Fantasy, and Bogus
http://tinyurl.com/6owd744
+ Show Spoiler +
Bogus was really good when I made this and was pushing the metagame in TvP forward. He and Flash probably have the most solid "copyable" builds. Fantasy's style works really well but it is rather... insane, as you will see.
Terran vs Zerg: Flash and Light
http://tinyurl.com/cy5yulk
+ Show Spoiler +
These two Terrans are above and beyond the best at TvZ. TvZ is a very interesting matchup considering that even though it is constantly evolving, older strategies from as many as 3 years ago are still viable and used today. Unfortunately I quit BW before 1 port fe into fast vessel became a common build so if you want to study it you're on you're own.
I apologize for only having TvX pro vods. If you want to make some for other matchups I can add them to the thread. If you don't want to you're a lazy noob ;P
Also I apologize that a bit of the sorting is unfinished or inconsistently labeled.
EDIT: (When downloading use the magnet link)
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Could you possibly make a VOD listing so we can make a youtube playlist?
I've recently started to watch VODs and old day9 dailies again. I can't believe I didn't watch those sooner >.>. Even though they are old, the ideas are still very solid.
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Could you give a legit link please?
DDL pref'd.
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Edit: I am stupid and can't read
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On April 24 2012 21:58 DidYuhim wrote:
Could you give a legit link please?
DDL pref'd.
Legit content = Legit link don't worry.
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SEEEEEEEEEEEEDD please, you need upload so others can download from you
leave bit torrent running
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Uh im having a tech issue. I uploaded the torrent, but in order to seed it I need to redownload it, which doesn't work since nobody is seeding it. If anyone knows anything about this sort of thing or knows anyone who knows anything about this sort of thing I would greatly appreciate the help.
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Italy2495 Posts
this is really nice.
However for me personally, whatching pro vods doesn t make me improve at all.
This is something very important i have realised. Pro players are able to carry out strategies, because they have the apm and game sense to back it up. If they see their opponent go for a strat, most likely a common one, they will know how to answer to that.
Its useless to go 14 cc tvz if you don' t know how to follow up. The most i have learned was reading guides, and watching similar to me rank players playing. Then i can try to apply their strategy. Guides are very important, and adapting is something you have to learn on your own, no one can theach you that.
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if you uploaded the torrent then surely its stored on your hard drive somewhere??
i used the magnet link, but only the TvP torrent worked
it's here:
tvp torrent
edit tvz
tvz torrent
tvt:
TvT torrent
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Allright I figured it out. It will be done in 20 min or so.
EDIT: ok I think its fixed, can you tell me if it's working?
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On April 25 2012 09:03 pebble444 wrote:
this is really nice.
However for me personally, whatching pro vods doesn't make me improve at all.
This is something very important i have realised. Pro players are able to carry out strategies, because they have the apm and game sense to back it up. If they see their opponent go for a strat, most likely a common one, they will know how to answer to that.
Its useless to go 14 cc tvz if you don' t know how to follow up. The most i have learned was reading guides, and watching similar to me rank players playing. Then i can try to apply their strategy. Guides are very important, and adapting is something you have to learn on your own, no one can theach you that.
Starcraft is only great coz it requires both strategy and execution. For me personally, alot of people tell me I have good mechanics, but horrible game sense and timing.
However, the strategies I find that require less mechanics are ones that are geared towards all-ins and short term games, which won't really help in the long run. I find that if you find builds that are flexible and are beginner friendly it helps alot more. Also if you know what to do in the game itself, you spend less time thinking of what to do and just doing it. I think this is probably why TvZ is considered easier than TvP, because there are less variations on what Zerg can do as opposed to Protoss (harem shush :p). (2/3 hatch muta/lurker vs 12 nex, 1 gate, 2 gate, 1 base reaver, 1 base DT, fast third off 1 gate, carriers etc).
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TvP and TvZ are working for me now, but downloading pretty slowly. 1-20 kB/s
the TvT torrent i still haven't got through magnet yet.
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On April 25 2012 09:56 Nazza wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 09:03 pebble444 wrote:
this is really nice.
However for me personally, whatching pro vods doesn't make me improve at all.
This is something very important i have realised. Pro players are able to carry out strategies, because they have the apm and game sense to back it up. If they see their opponent go for a strat, most likely a common one, they will know how to answer to that.
Its useless to go 14 cc tvz if you don' t know how to follow up. The most i have learned was reading guides, and watching similar to me rank players playing. Then i can try to apply their strategy. Guides are very important, and adapting is something you have to learn on your own, no one can theach you that. Starcraft is only great coz it requires both strategy and execution. For me personally, alot of people tell me I have good mechanics, but horrible game sense and timing. However, the strategies I find that require less mechanics are ones that are geared towards all-ins and short term games, which won't really help in the long run. I find that if you find builds that are flexible and are beginner friendly it helps alot more. Also if you know what to do in the game itself, you spend less time thinking of what to do and just doing it. I think this is probably why TvZ is considered easier than TvP, because there are less variations on what Zerg can do as opposed to Protoss (harem shush :p). (2/3 hatch muta/lurker vs 12 nex, 1 gate, 2 gate, 1 base reaver, 1 base DT, fast third off 1 gate, carriers etc).
wat no way. tvz is way more harder. there are so many types and follow ups to 2/3 hatch muta/lurk that you need constant scouting to know which to react. not to mention theres different openings a terran can do against zerg (bio vs mech while terran hardly ever go bio against protoss). also you can basically go FD and be reasonably even against all the protoss openings you mentioned (expect for the 12 nex where you can just skip the fd push and get a 3rd off mines)
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On April 25 2012 11:51 Puyi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 09:56 Nazza wrote:On April 25 2012 09:03 pebble444 wrote:
this is really nice.
However for me personally, whatching pro vods doesn't make me improve at all.
This is something very important i have realised. Pro players are able to carry out strategies, because they have the apm and game sense to back it up. If they see their opponent go for a strat, most likely a common one, they will know how to answer to that.
Its useless to go 14 cc tvz if you don' t know how to follow up. The most i have learned was reading guides, and watching similar to me rank players playing. Then i can try to apply their strategy. Guides are very important, and adapting is something you have to learn on your own, no one can theach you that. Starcraft is only great coz it requires both strategy and execution. For me personally, alot of people tell me I have good mechanics, but horrible game sense and timing. However, the strategies I find that require less mechanics are ones that are geared towards all-ins and short term games, which won't really help in the long run. I find that if you find builds that are flexible and are beginner friendly it helps alot more. Also if you know what to do in the game itself, you spend less time thinking of what to do and just doing it. I think this is probably why TvZ is considered easier than TvP, because there are less variations on what Zerg can do as opposed to Protoss (harem shush :p). (2/3 hatch muta/lurker vs 12 nex, 1 gate, 2 gate, 1 base reaver, 1 base DT, fast third off 1 gate, carriers etc). wat no way. tvz is way more harder. there are so many types and follow ups to 2/3 hatch muta/lurk that you need constant scouting to know which to react. not to mention theres different openings a terran can do against zerg (bio vs mech while terran hardly ever go bio against protoss). also you can basically go FD and be reasonably even against all the protoss openings you mentioned (expect for the 12 nex where you can just skip the fd push and get a 3rd off mines)
When you have good mechanics, TvZ feels easier compared with TvP.
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On April 25 2012 14:42 Black[CAT] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 11:51 Puyi wrote:On April 25 2012 09:56 Nazza wrote:On April 25 2012 09:03 pebble444 wrote:
this is really nice.
However for me personally, whatching pro vods doesn't make me improve at all.
This is something very important i have realised. Pro players are able to carry out strategies, because they have the apm and game sense to back it up. If they see their opponent go for a strat, most likely a common one, they will know how to answer to that.
Its useless to go 14 cc tvz if you don' t know how to follow up. The most i have learned was reading guides, and watching similar to me rank players playing. Then i can try to apply their strategy. Guides are very important, and adapting is something you have to learn on your own, no one can theach you that. Starcraft is only great coz it requires both strategy and execution. For me personally, alot of people tell me I have good mechanics, but horrible game sense and timing. However, the strategies I find that require less mechanics are ones that are geared towards all-ins and short term games, which won't really help in the long run. I find that if you find builds that are flexible and are beginner friendly it helps alot more. Also if you know what to do in the game itself, you spend less time thinking of what to do and just doing it. I think this is probably why TvZ is considered easier than TvP, because there are less variations on what Zerg can do as opposed to Protoss (harem shush :p). (2/3 hatch muta/lurker vs 12 nex, 1 gate, 2 gate, 1 base reaver, 1 base DT, fast third off 1 gate, carriers etc). wat no way. tvz is way more harder. there are so many types and follow ups to 2/3 hatch muta/lurk that you need constant scouting to know which to react. not to mention theres different openings a terran can do against zerg (bio vs mech while terran hardly ever go bio against protoss). also you can basically go FD and be reasonably even against all the protoss openings you mentioned (expect for the 12 nex where you can just skip the fd push and get a 3rd off mines) When you have good mechanics, TvZ feels easier compared with TvP.
eh i for me tvz is the more fun matchup while tvp is the easier matchup.
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On April 25 2012 09:03 pebble444 wrote:
this is really nice.
However for me personally, whatching pro vods doesn t make me improve at all.
This is something very important i have realised. Pro players are able to carry out strategies, because they have the apm and game sense to back it up. If they see their opponent go for a strat, most likely a common one, they will know how to answer to that.
Its useless to go 14 cc tvz if you don' t know how to follow up. The most i have learned was reading guides, and watching similar to me rank players playing. Then i can try to apply their strategy. Guides are very important, and adapting is something you have to learn on your own, no one can theach you that.
APM has much less to do with it than game sense. I am and always have been a big advocate of trying to up your apm (it's pretty silly not to try to take whatever advantages you can), but at the end of the day game sense is what separates the men from the boys. Under 100 apm with pro level game sense will 100-0 obliterate 9000 apm with D rank level game sense. The ability to predict what your opponent will do, the ability to understand timing deficiencies and maximize the effectiveness of your pressure... just insurmountable.
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Anyone have a list of the VODs? I'd rather not dl 16 GBs if I can help it (australian internet >.>).
I'd be willing to go through each game and discuss with other people.
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i don't really get this, are these just vods downloaded? so someone who watched them all won't see anything new here?
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On April 26 2012 21:35 Nazza wrote:
Anyone have a list of the VODs? I'd rather not dl 16 GBs if I can help it (australian internet >.>).
I'd be willing to go through each game and discuss with other people.
That would take a while but I could do that.
On April 26 2012 22:00 zimp wrote:
i don't really get this, are these just vods downloaded? so someone who watched them all won't see anything new here?
If you watch every pro game played by good terrans you will have seen all these games. The advantage is that you can easily compare these games side by side very closely. If you doubt its value then don't DL it, but personally it helped me many times more than any other technique I've tried ever has.
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Still nothing on the TvT magnet. ill be seeding these forever.
I would also be interested in a game-by-game discussion for the sake of improvement of gamesense and thinking.
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EPT
