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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
On January 09 2012 05:44 Jackal58 wrote: It doesn't take a 3000 word essay to point out the obvious. /No sarcasm. What if the person you are talking to is incapable of noticing the obvious? | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 09 2012 05:55 layabout wrote: Your reasoning this game fir him being not scummy is that: In a previous game you felt he wasn't being aggressive at a certain point during day1 and that this might have made him scummy. He turned out to be town. In this game at a point near the end of day 1 risk nuke hadn't been aggressive and conclude that he isn't scummy, or completely dismiss the difference in play style. There is a difference in his play style and it was apparent when you voted. In this game he had had an awful lot longer to be aggressive but he wasn't (and still hasn't been). This means that actually his meta was different There were numerous other reasons that had been pointed out which you completely disregarded. By "throw around" i mean used for pressure. In that game he was exercising he voting power and using it to get reactions out of people, in this game he hopped on erandor at the brink to save himself. Oh shit, he went 24 hours more than he did previously without being aggressive? Clearly scum! Also, when I voted I hadn't read the newer parts of the thread very carefully as I was busy most of yesterday so I went with my best scum read at the time. Deal with it. And there definitely wasn't any aggressive tones in these posts, no, not at all! Before my vote: On January 07 2012 09:04 risk.nuke wrote: Erandorr is very likely scum. Simply because a non-posting Erandorr is a red Erandorr. Jackal58 is another person who would likely bleed red. The first thing he does is attack palmar and keeps at it using tunneling and fearmongering, while I am also slightly leaning red on palmar I don't think Jackal would hit him this hard if Jackal was town-aligned, he's just trying to get rid of palmar any means neccersary. He justifys it by saying he always attack palmar day 1 but I think this is just an excuse. He takes a break from his Palmar tunneling to rightfully rage alittle on people listing no-reads but it doesn't mean anything and he haven't contributed anything himself exept tunneling palmar. After it: On January 08 2012 08:02 risk.nuke wrote: The one fucking thing that should make you realise what a bad lynch I am is how fucking easily I'm getting bandwagon-sheeped to the block. Layabout is really the only one who's tried to write some reasoning, even though it's really really bad reasoning that was all it took because with that and ridiculous meta-claims I'm free to sheep, you don't need to state why I'm scummy, hell this is a bandwagon the more the merrier right. What information will you get when I flip town? Squat. On January 08 2012 08:12 risk.nuke wrote: I should had taken a bus 10 minutes ago, but I'm waiting here for you, in the bloody of-chance that you might see some reason and change the lynch because if I left now I know I will die and when I flip town people is going to whine and bitch about how I gave up and let myself get lynched so please speak. On January 08 2012 08:48 risk.nuke wrote: Blazinghand quit beeing a huge troll. You did some pressuring but that's all you've done, after that you just got convinced of your own selfimportance so please tune it down. Now, can I stop talking about somebody I still have a damn null read on, or would you like me to keep wasting time on the matter? | ||
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On January 09 2012 05:57 layabout wrote: What if the person you are talking to is incapable of noticing the obvious? On January 09 2012 05:51 Spaackle wrote: @Jackal Hypothetically, let's say I'm a complete noob and I don't know how to play this game. Explain to me: why is it obvious? Could you please give a little bit more reasoning, even if it is things that others have already pointed out? His assertion regarding Syllo: On January 09 2012 04:45 Dirkzor wrote: See, all i have is your word for it. But i guess we can lynch him and if he flips town we lynch you... My response: On January 09 2012 04:59 Jackal58 wrote: And after he flips angel or demon we lynch you because you'll be the same. His argument vs Syllo is stupid. If Syllo is town all he can do is put forth a case against Palmar. Putting forth a case does not make you scum. Inventing a case does but in this instance Syllo has done no more or less than call Palmar scummy due to a statement regarding RoLs plan. So invention is not an issue. Being wrong is not scummy. But Dizork wants you to think it is. If Palmar does flip scum though then we are quite able to look at those that defended him. Not once but repeatedly. And putting forth that proposition of how we vote if Palmar does flip scum does not sit well with Drizork. So he attacks me not the proposition that he and Palmar are indeed connected at the hip. | ||
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
And football is much more entertaining than you guys. Be back later. | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
It doesn't take a 3000 word essay to point out the obvious. my comment was really only about that point but thanks for actually writing something! | ||
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Dirkzor
Denmark1944 Posts
I'm very unsure about palmar at the moment and i have yet to see a case which is not "This is not Town palmar". Besides that there aren't really anything against him. I don't know the meta on you guys so i have no clue. Thats why i asked syllo a few times about his opinion on palmar. What does strike me about palmar is that he shifted gear mid day 1. He posted a lot more and became more agressive after being called out on not doing exactly that. The case wiggles made kinda fell a part because wiggles lied (intentionally or not, that was one of the few parts that were not meta). Which leaves me with a null read on palmar. And i don't see how my argument against syllo is stupid. If he knows him aswell as he saids then there are 2 possibilities if Palmar flip town: 1) Syllo don't know him as well as he thought 2) Syllo lied and he is scum. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22631 Posts
On January 09 2012 04:45 Dirkzor wrote: See, all i have is your word for it. But i guess we can lynch him and if he flips town we lynch you... I'm actually fine with that. There's increasingly little chance syllo is town. Can you do me a favor and make sure you kill jackal who has taken tunneling me as an excuse for not contributing too? That'd be grand. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On January 09 2012 05:29 Spaackle wrote: @RofL While I agree that we need a plan for day 2, yours is not the one I would go with. Mass claiming like that will only paint a target on our blues for the scumteams. We'll lose our blue powers so fast that we'll get almost no use out of them, and where will we be then? This game isn't about blues, its about killing scum. Our blues can help with that, but any plan around them is stupid. I view them as confirmable voting power in this game which is MUCH more important than anything else. This game is about scumhunting, or blues are actually relatively weak. We have a jailer, two detectives that can only detect half the scum, so if they see someone scummy they may be right and not even get an answer, and a vigilante who can't kill half the scum but can shoot everyday. The vig is good, but rest of the power roles are relatively weak. The stronger element is their threat as a voting entity. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22631 Posts
Blazinghand, Cwave, Dirkzor, layabout, RebirthOfLeGenD, Spaackle, Zephirdd and Mr. Wiggles are town. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
Notice how palmar has basically stopped talking to me. I can assure you that he is completely certain that I'm town (and not only because he is scum) and yet doesn't care about cooperating with me. Even if you don't know about our appreciation for each other's play, just the fact we played as a hydra in Election mafia should be ample evidence of that. It's of course always possible to wrong, even when making definitive statements. | ||
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Dirkzor
Denmark1944 Posts
But I'm way to tired now to try to figure out who. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote: What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Once again, issues arise from illiteracy. As I said earlier, the blue roles NEVER claim their role, just their color. This prevents effective use of banishment/Transport and turns it into just a guessing game. The angels need to kill a confirmed voting black because they can't let four confirmed fucking townies sit around all game and hope for the best. Point two, demons won't know who the demon hunter is to properly banish him on top of which as stated earlier, he acts as a permanent town aligned voting block. The goal of the demons is to eventually control the vote, and that's how they win. They have no KP. The angels need to prevent a solid voting block from forming. I don't know what about this comes off as that complex. The scum teams get huge information regardless. They KNOW who they kill, this way we also know who they kill. This comes back to the annihilate mechanic. We open ourselves up to fakeclaims by not mass claiming before fake claims are possible. I don't think you get how a no flip mechanic works in this game, or in any game. When the mafia knows the information and we don't, we are at a disadvantage. When the Mafia can't fake claim, the town is at an advantage. When we confirm players as absolutely innocent, guess what? We win again. After today the mafia can safely fake claim and nothing is confirmable, my plan preempts this issue. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On January 09 2012 00:43 layabout wrote: RoL's plan: How do the angels react to the colour claim? They probably target blues as they wish to kill town blues They could hide amongst the blues for protection or the sea of greens for anonymity No, any more than 4 blue claims we have everyone claim and kill the contradictions. therefore how do demons react to this plan? they claim green to reduce the chance of being killed by angels they take a massive risk and claim blue increasing their chances of being killed No mafia has the opportunity to claim a blue role without instantly getting caught and killed. There is a counter claim, we will figure it out, and the scum faction loses a player and all we lose is 1 confirmed townie and a voting block in the worst case scenario for us, but regardless they lose the mafia. how do blues react? they claim blue and a no-flip death they claim green to minimise the chance of being killed by angels No blue will claim green because its fucking stupid. how do greens react? they claim green they claim blue so that angels kill them. Your last two thoughts assume we are playing with blithering retards. Townies shouldn't lie and there is no reason to. If any green claimed blue they would royally fuck us over, likewise if any blue sees people taking the plan seriously they NEED to claim or it fucks the whole thing up. They have to claim, and they have to claim before the angel of death performs his first kill. The demons will know if any of the blue claims are demons, therefore the rest of the blue are angels vanilla town or blue town.Similarly the angels will know if any of the blues are angels so the rest are demons blues or vainlla taon. Why wouldn't the scum team know who there own player is? That's like my mom not knowing who I am when shes sober. The latter half is just asusmign the townies and blues are being dicks and lying when its incredibly anti-town to do. Why would the demons want to protect non-demon claiming blue? after all they need to kill two blues as part of their win condition. A voting block threatens angels more than blues. But more importantly it doesn't matter. Its a double edged sword, they are shutting down blue powers which threaten them while also inadvertently protecting them which preserves there voting power. Why would the demons wish to corrupt a blue when then need to kill 2/4 town blue and when town blues are getting banished and demons only get corrupt every other night? Because their goal is to control voting power, and controlling voting power that the town and the angels will hesitate to kill is beneficial to them. How do we end up with 4 confirmed town? Especially if multiple vanilla's or scum claim blue. Because scum CC's result in scum death which is really bad for them. And Vanilla claiming would be really stupid and anti-town, therefore shouldn't happen. I think it is very likely that some people will not like this plan and that some town aligned people will fake-claim if it goes ahead, wouldn't this ruin the whole plan? Feasibly yes, but as soon as you guys realize its beneficial and the blues claim then every town aligned player should understand how detrimental lying is and therefore not do it. If no vanilla town fake-claim then then angels will be killing a demon or blue every night, the only way to stop this is with the channeller. If the channeller dies and the demons do not protect blues town could lose all blues town could lose 4 blues in two nights, whilst that is an extreme scenario the plan is over reliant on the channeller +demon help AND we might not even know if the channeller is killed. It's called analysis. We have a smaller pool (-4 confirmed townies from suspects) to choose from and we can figure out the rest with skilled analysis. In the worst case scenario, it is possible that we could lose all the blues in two nights, but that still gives us AT LEAST one day of confirmed townies. If even one hit fails due to purgatory they are fucked. The angels have to maintain a status quo among Corrupted townies and eliminate demons, a blue circle should be a second priority for them. by day 3 in your perfect 4/4 blue dead scenario the demons have +3 corrupted townies and effectively control the lynch winning the game. If the Angels intend on winning they can't let that happen. Doesn't this plan give scum more information than it gives to town because they will know some of the fakers for certain? They know if someone is faking if they are faking it, and they will lose that player instantly or after taking one blue, either way a fair exchange. the more honest town is the better off the angels are. the less honest town is the less information town has but the better off they are in terms of living blues. it potentially put angels in a good position and demons in a manageable decision whilst it could put town in an okay-really bad position ... bad plan perhaps it can be adjusted but i think that currently it would do far more harm than good. You're wrong. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On January 09 2012 01:44 layabout wrote: I was just going to quote what you put in the one dated 12/15/11 04:23 does RoL typically suggest plans and does anybody have links to previous ones? I spent ages in risk.nukes filters yesterday and i don't have the time to do more today. When a set up is easily broken, yes. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=237560&user=41447¤tpage=All I contributed to this, I don't recall if I originally brought it up. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On January 09 2012 03:51 Zephirdd wrote: > town player feels he isnt very useful on scumhunting > he fakeclaims blue, gets sniped > scum wasted a shot on a green that could've been in a blue. It is bad play, I don't disagree with it, but there is a reasoning to it. It is still bad. Mass claiming is bad in itself. You paint targets for purgatory, you paint targets for the AoD. Mafia could all claim green and suddenly we have nothing except that our blues claimed and made the scums lives much much easier. You miss what the benefits are, a confirmed voting block and it allows us to establish the flow of the game in our favor. We explain why fake claiming is so detrimental and no protown player will do it. It's simple. I | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On January 09 2012 04:16 Dirkzor wrote: This plan seems like it ties up a lot of our resources. If we only get 4 blue claims the channeler will have to banish in order to protect those 4. The one getting banished won't be able to do their job while there is still a 75% chance (assuming demons don't transport one of them) for the angels to kill blue. (actually higher because they can slay + stalk where they know exactly what to guess) So even if we get 4 confirmed townies they will die to fast. Nah I don't like it. I've explained why this is wrong, and our power isn't in the confirmed blues utilizing their actual powers, but utilizing themselves as a voting entity and removing themselves from the suspect pool. It preempts the chaos of no flips as well which can be very bad later on since nothing can be confirmed. Read my last few posts, I elaborate on almost every possible objection. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On January 09 2012 04:16 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Are people seriously trying to implicate me on the basis of "soft-defending" risk by voting Erandorr instead? Now, I can't speak for the people throwing suspicion on me, but I sure as hell don't know risk's alignment, and unless they somehow do, I don't see how it can be implicate me as being scum. Anyone trying to implicate me on this before risk flips is using shitty logic. If risk flips scum and then you want to come after me, then you have some logic on your side. I did not vote for risk nor comment on it much as I had (and still have) a null read on risk. Risk has been in every game I've played on here, and his play-style has varied too much from game to game for me to be comfortable with a day 1 read on him. @RebirthOfLegend Demons ignore the blues, angels target two, they have a 50% chance of killing the channeler night 1, second night they get him for sure. Best case scenario is we have one blue alive after night 2, worst case they are all dead night 2. In the meantime we roleblock one of our own blues. Alternately, they ignore blues with the angel of death, use that kill on our best scum hunters and use the acolyte on our blues. Also, this plan ignores the possibility of a blue deciding not to go along with it and claim. Basically, I think the plan is quite bad. I've explained how this runs counter to Angelic win conditions. Your worst case scenario is unrealistic imo as explained in that PBP response above. If the angels force us to the worst case scenario they also let the demons control the vote, and if the demons control the vote the angels lose. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On January 09 2012 07:27 syllogism wrote: Only one mafia team can "safely" fake claim and angels have no means of protecting themselves from seer checks or even the demon hunter, which functions pretty much like a DT if the target doesn't die. If an angel fake claims some blue role, they also open themselves to demons constantly role blocking them with demonic courier, so pretty much only the angelic observer can claim until that role is dead. There is no safe claim until after this cycle ends. This is my last post regarding this issue. If you think what I said makes sense and that I understand the set up and I have debunked all these half assed retarded criticisms then claim your role now. We are running out of time to implement this. As I said in my preface in the initial post. There is a reason no open set ups are used, because in any set up with a KNOWN role count it can be abused in the way in which I am attempting to. This game doesn't make my strategy viable after the first cycle because of no flip mechanics. So if you think I covered all dumb criticisms, then claim now. And don't fucking lie in your claim in case it wasn't obvious how antitown that is. | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
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