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Lets assume everybody follow your plan (which they will not)
No mafia has the opportunity to claim a blue role without instantly getting caught and killed. There is a counter claim, we will figure it out, and the scum faction loses a player and all we lose is 1 confirmed townie and a voting block in the worst case scenario for us, but regardless they lose the mafia.
can you explain the logistics of this?
Why wouldn't the scum team know who there own player is? That's like my mom not knowing who I am when shes sober. The latter half is just asusmign the townies and blues are being dicks and lying when its incredibly anti-town to do. the point is that scum can trade a player they don't think will survive long to for all blue to reveal themselves. The angelic observers power is to help figure out blues (+demons) and getting all four blues might not be acheivable in normal play so there is potential gain there for angels.For demons they could probably waste the concealer and then know for certain who the demon hunter and sage are. If either team does this the other team can reap the benefits without the cost.
How many blues do you expect to still be alive night 3 and how many scum?
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On January 09 2012 07:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Once again, issues arise from illiteracy. As I said earlier, the blue roles NEVER claim their role, just their color. This prevents effective use of banishment/Transport and turns it into just a guessing game. The angels need to kill a confirmed voting black because they can't let four confirmed fucking townies sit around all game and hope for the best. Point two, demons won't know who the demon hunter is to properly banish him on top of which as stated earlier, he acts as a permanent town aligned voting block. The goal of the demons is to eventually control the vote, and that's how they win. They have no KP. The angels need to prevent a solid voting block from forming. I don't know what about this comes off as that complex. The scum teams get huge information regardless. They KNOW who they kill, this way we also know who they kill. This comes back to the annihilate mechanic. We open ourselves up to fakeclaims by not mass claiming before fake claims are possible. I don't think you get how a no flip mechanic works in this game, or in any game. When the mafia knows the information and we don't, we are at a disadvantage. When the Mafia can't fake claim, the town is at an advantage. When we confirm players as absolutely innocent, guess what? We win again. After today the mafia can safely fake claim and nothing is confirmable, my plan preempts this issue.
Okay, i misread and missed the color only claim part. My bad, gotta go back some new googles.
Your plan is therefore much better than i initially thougth. I still have an issue with how you are going to deal with corruption. Angels are not the only one that need to prevent a voting block from forming, we need to prevent it too. On one hand you say that corrupted town should claim, but on the other hand you also advise multiple claim. What does town gain form multiple corruption claim ? While i agree that this migth confuse scum, If the angels are in doubt on how to get rid of corrupted townies, how are we going to know how to deal with it ?
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On January 09 2012 08:03 layabout wrote:Lets assume everybody follow your plan (which they will not) Show nested quote +No mafia has the opportunity to claim a blue role without instantly getting caught and killed. There is a counter claim, we will figure it out, and the scum faction loses a player and all we lose is 1 confirmed townie and a voting block in the worst case scenario for us, but regardless they lose the mafia. can you explain the logistics of this? Show nested quote +Why wouldn't the scum team know who there own player is? That's like my mom not knowing who I am when shes sober. The latter half is just asusmign the townies and blues are being dicks and lying when its incredibly anti-town to do. the point is that scum can trade a player they don't think will survive long to for all blue to reveal themselves. The angelic observers power is to help figure out blues (+demons) and getting all four blues might not be acheivable in normal play so there is potential gain there for angels.For demons they could probably waste the concealer and then know for certain who the demon hunter and sage are. If either team does this the other team can reap the benefits without the cost. How many blues do you expect to still be alive night 3 and how many scum?
Bolded part is probably the best criticism of the plan. Trading one member about to get lynched anyway to reveal all power roles is not good for town I think. And even if you add the caveat that if someone like risk.nuke who seems overly scummy anyway claims blue, we should still lynch him, the fact that there can be a no flip will still generate way too much confusion IMO.
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So scum sacrifice a player and there power because they think that player sucks? It's still not a good trade, one scum team has to sacrifice themselves in order to achieve it and its not worth it for either of them. Knowing the blue roles doesn't really matter that much. It increases the effectivity of Purgatory, yes. But like I said the real strength isn't the roles (as I pointed out earlier they are weak), the real strength is a confirmed group and a voting block. Knowing the specific blue roles doesn't help that much and isn't worth it for the mafia to claim, lose a member just to know which player is the demon hunter, since that's the only thing that matters.
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On January 09 2012 08:09 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 07:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Once again, issues arise from illiteracy. As I said earlier, the blue roles NEVER claim their role, just their color. This prevents effective use of banishment/Transport and turns it into just a guessing game. The angels need to kill a confirmed voting black because they can't let four confirmed fucking townies sit around all game and hope for the best. Point two, demons won't know who the demon hunter is to properly banish him on top of which as stated earlier, he acts as a permanent town aligned voting block. The goal of the demons is to eventually control the vote, and that's how they win. They have no KP. The angels need to prevent a solid voting block from forming. I don't know what about this comes off as that complex. The scum teams get huge information regardless. They KNOW who they kill, this way we also know who they kill. This comes back to the annihilate mechanic. We open ourselves up to fakeclaims by not mass claiming before fake claims are possible. I don't think you get how a no flip mechanic works in this game, or in any game. When the mafia knows the information and we don't, we are at a disadvantage. When the Mafia can't fake claim, the town is at an advantage. When we confirm players as absolutely innocent, guess what? We win again. After today the mafia can safely fake claim and nothing is confirmable, my plan preempts this issue. Okay, i misread and missed the color only claim part. My bad, gotta go back some new googles. Your plan is therefore much better than i initially thougth. I still have an issue with how you are going to deal with corruption. Angels are not the only one that need to prevent a voting block from forming, we need to prevent it too. On one hand you say that corrupted town should claim, but on the other hand you also advise multiple claim. What does town gain form multiple corruption claim ? While i agree that this migth confuse scum, If the angels are in doubt on how to get rid of corrupted townies, how are we going to know how to deal with it ?
It depends on how the game is going, we don't want to fake claim corruption if the Demons are in an advantageous position because we want the Angels to kill the corrupt townies to keep the field even for them. As town it takes a lot more corruption for the Demons voting power to overwhelm ours, the angels it doesn't. Since the only way we kills Angels is by lynch we will always know if we kill an Angel and how to maintain balance between the two sides. The issue is if we ever just become Town vs Demon, I believe we auto lose since they keep getting voting power and the best thing we could do is try to kill their voting power.
At the end of the day, we can decide if we think its important to fake claim corruption, and we can always have people reveal they were lying afterwards if we need to.
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I am heading out for the night.
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There is only an hour and a half left, claim now or this plan fails.
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I'll claim just before daypost.
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Wait when does the night end?
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No, are you stupid? Claim now and others can claim. What's the point in doing it before the day post.
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We aren't mass claiming and regardless of how good you think your plan is, you shouldn't try to get people to claim individually as that's just awful.
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@risk Night ends in about an hour and 15 minutes. Not sure what time it is in Sweden right now though...
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I think this breaks your plan
claiming
any scum except for the AoD or acolyte claim channeller
real channeller claims channeller
real channeller cannot be protected by anyone other than the transporter or the twister at night but they don't protect
day2
case 1
we lynch real channeller
demons conceal
night 2
angels kill 1 or 2 blues
demons corrupt
we have 1 blue left + 1 fake blue left
case2
we lynch fake channeller
demons conceal
night 2
angels still get at least 1 kill possibly 2
demons corrupt a player
day 3
We would not be able to accurately figure out which happened
so we lynch the other claimed player
Angels can now kill remaining 2 blues or 1 blue +acolyte on another target if they killed 2 blues
Wouldn't this be not only extremely feasible for scum to do but also completely fuck town?
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On January 09 2012 08:41 syllogism wrote:
We aren't mass claiming and regardless of how good you think your plan is, you shouldn't try to get people to claim individually as that's just awful.
It starts with one person, but if no one takes that step then it doesn't matter. No one bother claiming now there isn't enough time and we can't guarantee all the blues are active now.
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Once again yours is a worst case scenario and it uses two conceals which isn't possible.
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I should probably add that the like scenario after all of that leaves
Day3
2 players for scumteam 3 player other scumteam
(if the demon hunter does well for us maybe 2 on each or 1 / 3)
0 blues alive
7 vanilla alive
6 vanilla alive (if angels get two night kills)
5 vanilla alive (if angels get 2 night kills and demonhunter hits town
+ 1 corupted townie or no corrupted townie.
which could be lylo? (if i am right)
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uses 1 conceal day 2 in both cases
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besides if scum take those actions how can we avoid that scenario?
i beleive i have accounted for nearly all of the uncertainty
how would you have us believe a demon or observer claiming channeller would play out if scum take those actions?
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RoL, there is a main problem with your strategy in that it is highly dependent on an excellent town that can scumhunt effectively and identify scum easily with the claims.
The problem is when nobody fake claims blue. We essentially go back to beginning, except our blues are exposed. You are relying in a unreliable resource - Town - by making a bet where you kill/expose a reliable resource - our Power Roles. Right now, scum PRs have a ~1/17 chance of hitting their wanted target, where when you make our blues expose themselves, it falls down to 1/4.
No, your plan is crazy as fuck. No matter what, this just looks like a scum plan, even given the setup.
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EBWOP math is probably wrong up there, but you get the idea.
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EPT
