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PANTHEON v 1.2.1
v1.2.1 published on NA server
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FvdD5.jpg)
The renegade priests of the Tal'Darim still revere these ancient burial grounds of the holy dead.
+ Show Spoiler [overview] +
+ Show Spoiler [analyzer summary] +
+ Show Spoiler [old versions] +1.2 (same as 1.2.1) 1.1 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BAEA3.png) 1.0.1 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YcAXZ.png) 1.0 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5kVie.jpg) old (file created jan 29 2011) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FECi7.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler [beauty shots] +
It's actually based on an old map I made about 6 10 months ago and abandoned for a while (look in the "old versions" spoiler for an image... if you dare).
STATS:
spawns = 2
dimensions = 176x144
+ Show Spoiler [bases] +
8 standard blue
2 standard gold
2 6min 1 gas blue (central bases)
2 4min 1 gas blue (inbase nat)
+ Show Spoiler [rush distances(analyzer)] +with rocks:
main2main = 200
nat2nat = 160
without rocks:
main2main = 140
nat2nat = 115
#rocks = 4
#xwt = 2
tileset = typhon
FEATURES:
inbase half expansion (4min1gas) defendable at a standard 1 width ramp in the early game before the rocks are brought down.
rock-blocked frontdoor into the main/half-nat, the rush distance shrinks sharply after the rocks go down.
half-expansions (6min 1gas) in the middle of the map.
experimental feature: permanent visibility zone in the small central area of the map (shown by the small white circle in the analyzer image) for both players. This is to help defense slightly as players begin to expand beyond the first 2.5 bases. Thanks to EatThePath for this idea!
CONCERNS:
probably a bunch of stuff, I am not an expert mapper of player.
FEEDBACK AND COMMENTS:
Please post your feedback, comments and suggestions so that I can improve this map!
Published on the NA server If you want to try it!
Thanks for reading!
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your Country52796 Posts
main2main = 240
nat2nat = 215
Too long.
Also, easy 3 base turtling, you got one small choke there and a backdoor.
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On November 05 2011 09:52 TehTemplar wrote:
main2main = 240
nat2nat = 215
Too long.
Also, easy 3 base turtling, you got one small choke there and a backdoor.
I would argue that 240 isn't really too long, especially with the backdoor shortening the true distance. Even though it is long for a two-player map, the average rush distance for most 4 player maps is actually much longer (given the chance that the initial scout goes to the wrong spawn.
turtling might be a problem, even though it would be technically only 2.5 base turtling. (though, thinking of it, thats actually probably worse).
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On November 05 2011 10:47 Namrufus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 09:52 TehTemplar wrote:
main2main = 240
nat2nat = 215
Too long.
Also, easy 3 base turtling, you got one small choke there and a backdoor. I would argue that 240 isn't really too long, especially with the backdoor shortening the true distance. Even though it is long for a two-player map, the average rush distance for most 4 player maps is actually much longer (given the chance that the initial scout goes to the wrong spawn. turtling might be a problem, even though it would be technically only 2.5 base turtling. (though, thinking of it, thats actually probably worse).
Really neat concept. While I do not necessarily disagree that the intial *scouting* distance might not be too long given your reasoning, the *rush* distance may be too long for certain traditionally minded play. Even if a player is scouted last on a four player map, the rush distance does not somehow increase because of this. Now, maybe you wish to foster a slightly different metagame with your map -- I'm not opposed to this reasoning and am all for maps that offer different strategic options -- however, it is a point that may be a turn off to the keepers of the keys. Just my 2 cents. (If it were me, I wouldn't change it.)
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On November 05 2011 10:47 Namrufus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 09:52 TehTemplar wrote:
main2main = 240
nat2nat = 215
Too long.
Also, easy 3 base turtling, you got one small choke there and a backdoor. I would argue that 240 isn't really too long, especially with the backdoor shortening the true distance. Even though it is long for a two-player map, the average rush distance for most 4 player maps is actually much longer (given the chance that the initial scout goes to the wrong spawn. turtling might be a problem, even though it would be technically only 2.5 base turtling. (though, thinking of it, thats actually probably worse).
Before I give some feedback I'd like to say that this is just plain wrong. The rush distance on Tal'darim Altar is 186 main to main and 145 nat to nat and as we all know it's about as long as it gets on ladder/tournament maps.
The feeling I get when looking at the map is that you're main goal was to not have any 1base plays. The rush distance, as mentioned, is gigantic, there are 3 ridiculously easy defendable bases and the mainbase is tiny.
Ok I actually gotta start over here. I just took a closer look at the bases and realized that it's an Andromeda style base layout, with a main and a low ressource inbase expo and then the real natural on lowground with a rather tight natural choke (somewhere between wallable with 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 3x3 buildings).
I kinda like the idea with the second entrance to the nat, however I'm not so sure about how it will play out once the rocks are broken, since the distance suddenly becomes so much shorter and many of the expansions are so far away. I guess you'd have to hold the horizontal line between XWT and the rocked natural ramp in order to hold 5 bases. Feels like Zergs would like all those far routes around the map for attacking and backstabbing quite a lot, on the other hand the distance between the two bases gets kinda short compared to the overall mapsize. I find it really hard to figure out this map by just looking at it for a bit^^
One small thing that come to mind, at the lowground 4th I think you can just erase that 1x ramp, there's still plenty of ramps leading there  .
Not much more I can say about it right now, I think it's definitly a very original and interesting map, although the rush distance is far too long. On the other hand we haven't really seen anything like it yet (I think) so it'd be really interesting to see how it plays out in the higher leagues.
GJ and keep it up!
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Interesting combination of offbeat elements. I need to think about it more, but I like how it looks. I can't see an glaring issues with the rock entrance, the distances, turtling, or spread of expansions. Maybe more path connectivity would be better? And I'd prefer if the towers gave you better coverage of the main path. Maybe a little more variability in proportions (selected areas slightly more open).
edit: regarding flop's post above (and rush distance)---
Obviously none of the 1base rushes, pressure, or timing attacks will make sense in any way on this map; we're kind of out to sea there. Most of the 2base timings will still apply, because the rocks aren't that big a of a deal timing wise (although it could make the difference in some cases). It's definitely a forced macro map, although there are interesting opportunities for proxy rushes, warp prism rushes, rush air harass, fast medivac attacks, and maybe some things I haven't thought of for 1basers.
The distance with rocks down is about the same as other maps natural to natural isn't it? Can you take off the rocks and run the analyzer? Oh I see. Yeah I don't think there's a problem at all with rocks down..??
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most things were already mentioned, but i want to add and repeat a few things. First i like the idea if a backdoor in combination with a half-nat and an easy third. But this is were trouble starts. I'll go through the map base by base.
the third actually is really close and choked. On the one hand it has to to feel comfy as a mapper when introducing a front backdoor, so you have it close by, on the other hand i feel like one will stay on these 2,5 bases, because other bases are then again quite far away.
the fourth' mineral lines needs a bit more space and simplification at the ramp setup. i do not see a real reason for these double ramps that are really close to the mineralm line. also the fourth looks siegeable. What i think is interesting really is that to defend the fourth you are motivated to break your rocks. a nice thing really how you set this up!
fifth/corner base is a bit difficult to defend, because you either need control of the area between fourth and XWT or reenforcer the fifth on the certical path between third and fifth. it is a bit odd i think. the rock there is a nice thing like to do a lot really, but here it does not make too much sense as the fifth will see bigger battles anyway (if it is taken at all) in late games.
small comment on 4th/5th: if the fifth was closer to the third it would be like a far away base to expand away and get a bigger distance to your opponent and the fourth would be more like a forward base, so they kind of are two alternatives depending on how you want to play the map.
the half base in the middle make no sense at all. they are not worth it and only one player can take it.
the gold are a bit out of the way. as dual sight was changed to a regular, i would suggest you move it to a more frequented area in the map, not directly on the main path, but a bit closer. so that it works like the fourth: you want to take gold? better break that rocks (so have it closer to middle and main basically, south gold moving west and north gold moving east). the goldsneed to have the rocks from 5th then btw)
with these changes incorporates your base can be much more simplified (terrain, layout) and compressed, almost fixing your rush distance problem and in my imagination it looks like a really fun map. i need 30min with these map to edit in these changes and be happy  so maybe you give it a shot and try out these ideas and look where it takes you.
(too bad for the well made aesthetics, but this could be a really fun and solid map)
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@HypertonicHydroponic & FlopTurnReaver: yeah, I didn't differentiate between scouting and rush distances. while the scouting distance should be shorter than for most four player maps (on average), the rush distance will be considerably longer until the rocks are destroyed.
@EatThePath: Which paths do you think should be more open?
@Samro225am: Thanks for the detailed analysis! I'll try to keep most of it in mind as I work on the map.
the rock there is a nice thing like to do a lot really, but here it does not make too much sense as the fifth will see bigger battles anyway (if it is taken at all) in late games.
the rock is there actually to protect the lowground fourth if someone decides to take it early on. the rock will block movement slightly (theoretically) and allow the defenders army time to get into a better position if the attacker's amy is coming around the side.
the gold are a bit out of the way. as dual sight was changed to a regular, i would suggest you move it to a more frequented area in the map, not directly on the main path, but a bit closer. so that it works like the fourth: you want to take gold? better break that rocks (so have it closer to middle and main basically, south gold moving west and north gold moving east). the goldsneed to have the rocks from 5th then btw)
my intention with the golds were to have them a a kind of late game option, with the golds the last in the expansion patterns and fairly contested, yet not in the middle of the map and usable as forward bases by aggressive terrans. however, if something similar has been done before without success, then I may change it to something like you suggest.
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Anyway, here is a newer version. Most of the changes are in the main-nat-third area, with some smaller changes to the lowground fourth. I have reduced the rush distance pre-rocks while still keeping it quite a bit longer than most maps. The changes to the lowgroud fourth are to make it slightly easier to defend and hopefully more viable.
Also, as an experiment there is now a small area of illuminated ground (for both players) in the center walkway (shown in the analyzer image as the small white circle), the purpose of this is to make it a bit easier to take the lowground fourth and fith. thanks to EatThePath for this suggestion.
After I'm certain about the main-nat-third setup, I'll start to try to refine the center areas of the map.
and... here it is:
(aesthetics have been wrecked, so it's going to be a while before this is actually published, I'm not so sure about all of the changes anyway)
+ Show Spoiler [new version] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FpJpb.png) analyzer rush distance with rocks: main2main = 206 nat2nat = 176 analyzer rush distance without rocks main2main = 151 nat2nat = 119
+ Show Spoiler [old version] +
If you have any feedback comments or suggestions about the changes, please post so that I can improve this map!
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your Country52796 Posts
You should make the main base area bigger and the main choke smaller. As it is, you are forced into walling off your natural and potentially having to protect 2 areas at once when the rocks are broken down.
What was your inspiration for the middle? It seems sort of random to me.
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Response + replay in a bit (will edit)
Here's a replay of a pretty long game I played with a terran from the 'masters practice group' channel on NA.
Pantheon PvT
Things I noticed during the game:
- There's very little reason not to CC/nexus/hatch first unless you have a specifically designed attack planned out
- ^So games will almost always be 2.5 bases with 2 narrow chokes, by default
- The low 4th didn't feel difficult; the corner 5th felt VERY exposed but the tower covers it, making that tower very desirable.
- Re: low 4th base: as protoss, if they attack down there, you can come from above the ramp on either side and they will be trapped with FF and cut off from retreat, so while you may lose the nexus, that's not a big deal when you're on 3-4 bases and you've just annihilated their whole army. IMO this promotes harass or multipronged attacks, which is good.
- The main and the natural need more space because 1) there will be large scale drops and 2) full armies fighting up into the natural. I filled up the main/nat (trying to leave space for movement) almost immediately.
- I play on low settings. iGrok's lighting was completely playable, but very bright on the units and structures. My opponent said it was too dark to see clearly in some places (playing on ultra I believe).
- In the lategame the chokes in the middle made it easy for me to control space, perhaps too easy.
- The center bases seemed perfectly reasonable. If they were slightly farther apart I would have felt plenty comfortable putting down a nexus when he took the top one. They function more as a focal point than a base, on such a macro map, if that makes sense. For example you can draw attention away from the gold behind it by taking it and threatening counter pushes with an army standing there.
I'm going to try to play more games with the new vision thing to get some randoms' feedback and see how I like it; my intuition from the game I played says it will be a good addition. Also, very important effect of the "always vision" patch: it will make the two center bases much more stable to take one each, because always vision is a defense-favoured mechanic.
I would look into adjusting the lighting for use with the dark Typhon textures. Also, I would recommend trying to find a way to provide just a little more space in the center. Alternatively, you could remove the half-bases in the center and scrunch the map together so it wasn't so big.
It was really fun though, felt very fresh to play on!
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On November 06 2011 10:55 TehTemplar wrote:
You should make the main base area bigger and the main choke smaller. As it is, you are forced into walling off your natural and potentially having to protect 2 areas at once when the rocks are broken down.
What was your inspiration for the middle? It seems sort of random to me.
well the "nat" in this case is an inbase expansion with only 4min/1gas, and the traditional natural is the "third" behind the main. So before the rocks are destroyed there is a choice between walling the main/halfnat (1 forcefield ramp) or walling the main/halfnat/third (2 forcefield choke). You are supposed to use the halfnat as part of the main, whether-or-not you expand there first.
the middle? It's just supposed to be a cool area to have battles in, kinda like the central area in xel-naga caverns. The half expands are supposed to be used as kindof low reward forward bases for aggressive T and P, how this will work in practice, idk.
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Map Update
+ Show Spoiler [new image] +
increased size of main
small modifications to central area in order to increase some chokes
increased lighting
bunch of other stuff
see OP for details etc
also, as a bonus the (old) map that this is based on:
+ Show Spoiler [old] +
@EatThePath
Thanks for the replay, feedback and analysis!
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large map update!
I have two versions I would like to test out. v1.2 and 1.2b
the OP has not been updated with these changes
version 1.2
+ Show Spoiler [overview] +
+ Show Spoiler [analyzer summary] +
version 1.2 only has conservative changes:
-main2main analyzer rush distance(with rocks) reduced to 200.The rush distance is a bit longer than any other map, but isn't incredibly huge like before
-size of choke into nat reduced slightly
-minor aesthetics changes
published to NA server as "Pantheon"
version 1.2b
+ Show Spoiler [overview] +
+ Show Spoiler [analyzer summary] +
version 1.2b has more drastic changes, the "side" expos have been drawn in closer to the central plateau, and the geometry of the natural has been changed. some attack paths have been reaaranged, mostly shortened.
main2main with rocks = 210
main2main without rocks = 150
I am fairly uncertain about these changes so far, what do you think of them?
published to NA as "Pantheon Test"
please post your feedback, comments and suggestions so that I can improve this map!
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