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On October 12 2011 21:55 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:52 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:25 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:21 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:18 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:14 Desert Fox wrote:
Didn't Zergs roflstomp Terrans at IPL? We basically cheesed you before you could cheese us. And there's a big difference between a tournament like IPL and GSL Code S. There's also a big difference between a player like Lucky and a player like MMA. MMA - reputed to have some of the greatest TvZ on the planet Lucky - sorry who? Lucky 3-0 MMA. Did you not read the part about me saying we cheesed you before you could cheese us? And MMA played very badly, not his usual at all. Idk if it was jetlag or something, but he's MUCH better than Lucky. If they played right now a rematch he'd probably 3-0 him. You can't take TOO much out of a weekend tournament because 1 series and you're done. I read it and disregarded it - but very well. I guess Happy just cheesed Coca before Coca could cheese him. As for taking too much from one series, that's exactly my point. Coca has famously bad ZvT and yet because he lost...a ZvT suddenly zerg is unwinnable again. P.S. Lucky 2-1 Ryung. Stephano 3-1 TheSTC EDIT: Also I'm not sure I like being included in 'you' when talking about all terrans everywhere...I don't define myself that way, I don't support only terrans in tournament, I play protoss and terran. It's not because he lost, it's because he was the last non Terran that lost. You seriously, seriously must not have watched any of Lucky's games vs Terrans at IPL. I can't even remember him not Roach ling all inning. So if the zerg all ins it doesn't count but if a Terran all ins then it's a balance issue?
Lucky just punished a player doing the same build every games. Besides it's easier for T to spot and def zergs all in than it is for zergs, but it's logical because zerg have such strong economy mechanics. This match up is the most interesting one by far! Then comes TvT then ZvZ. Protoss are not my cup of tea. In BW no player could do so predictable play without being punished hard! And even second tier players can win with strong replay analysis. I hope SC2 will turn like this. They just need to rework protoss.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On October 12 2011 22:05 Khaldor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 18:50 OMGKEI wrote:
Any news when khaldor is going to get his visa? The B team casters of gsl really suck. Already got my visa, I'll be arriving in Korea at the 21st, casting the upcoming season 
Yay! gl hf mate.
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gl khaldor
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So it's TvTvTvT now.. guess I'll stop watching til next season. Love terran but not the mirrors (anymore).
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Thanks guys  Should be awesome, really looking forward to it! I'll try my best to fulfill the expectations! Can't wait to actually be in Korea!
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Screw balance talk, as a non-terran GSL just got completely uninteresting. Really sad tbh won't watch the rest of the season just check results.
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Well up and downs soon :D
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On October 12 2011 22:29 grungust wrote:
Screw balance talk, as a non-terran GSL just got completely uninteresting. Really sad tbh won't watch the rest of the season just check results.
that's what i do already
not losing anything actually
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On October 12 2011 21:48 Jaedong4thOSL wrote:
I still believe that, unit and econ wise, SC2 is a more balanced game than BW.
The fundamental problem in SC2 is the easy control mechanics, this makes the minor imbalance amplified into huge game impact. In BW, the skills of players matters most, since it is too hard to micro, macro, even set rally point. So the matches of BW is always about players. SC2 is not yet.
It is nearly impossible for Blizzard to balance SC2, and make it similar to BW on race distribution.
This exactly. You state what I have been pondering since the release-date. The simplified mechanics that lower the skill ceiling make the game almost impossible to balance. BW is not as balanced as WoL is now.
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On October 12 2011 21:45 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:30 gold_ wrote:On October 12 2011 21:22 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:15 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:12 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:09 The KY wrote:
Three of the five top Koreans according to TLPD >>> are zerg. guys like you will never run out of ridiculous arguments why terran is perfectly balanced right now I don't think Terran is perfectly balanced. I think zerg isn't underpowered, and ZvT is roughly balanced. maybe take a look at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/cGzPj.png Man I hate that chart. Numbers never lie but people can draw false conclusions. For example the conclusion that unless every match up is 50% forever, the game is not balanced. What you fail to understand is that fluctuations in winrates are an unavoidable part of an asymmetrical RTS of any complexity - find the charts for BW if you like, I assure you there are times when one race does better than another. For you to claim ZvT is fundamentally imbalanced because for the month of September Terran did better than usual...it's absurd. Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust, or the other races are not robust enough. If that chart is accurate, clearly there is balance issues. I can't see how anyone could say differently after seeing that? To put this chart into perspective so people stop taking totally wrong conclusions from it, here's the Brood War one. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uxz19.png) Jan-Mar 2010, TvZ 50% winrate. ZvT unwinnable right? Terran OP? Mediocre terrans using their race to advance? Nerf Terran?
Yeah and what does it show? In BW race winrates altered. In SC2 Terran has been winning more games than it should since day 1, while the other two races had their ups and downs.
In my personal opinion, everyone who denies that terran is just objectively better than the other races is wither a terran or a moron. Or both.
Especially comparing Bw terran to SC2 terran, you will see that Blizzard just let the terran keep their strenghs (like best maxed army, most efficient units, incredibly strong defensive capabilities) while they removed all the weaknesses (like immobility, high unit prices, expensive tech, expensive upgrades, the need to defend expansions, worst mining out of the 3 races, unit fragility). Together with the most forgiving economy, this makes terran imbalanced.
This is the reason no terrans ever earned anything they won. Every GSL championship by a terran is a stolen one from people who deserved it.
User was temp banned for this post.
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As a Terran, I've definitely been watching a lot less GSL lately. I'll watch the most hyped matches live but for most I just check which games are recommended and only watch them. It's kind of sad and I feel bad for GOM.
They need to put out some maps that are really bad for Terran next season in order to get rid of the lower half as quickly as possible, or maybe just change the whole system, which I hope they do next year.
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On October 12 2011 22:42 Slunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:45 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:30 gold_ wrote:On October 12 2011 21:22 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:15 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:12 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:09 The KY wrote:
Three of the five top Koreans according to TLPD >>> are zerg. guys like you will never run out of ridiculous arguments why terran is perfectly balanced right now I don't think Terran is perfectly balanced. I think zerg isn't underpowered, and ZvT is roughly balanced. maybe take a look at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/cGzPj.png Man I hate that chart. Numbers never lie but people can draw false conclusions. For example the conclusion that unless every match up is 50% forever, the game is not balanced. What you fail to understand is that fluctuations in winrates are an unavoidable part of an asymmetrical RTS of any complexity - find the charts for BW if you like, I assure you there are times when one race does better than another. For you to claim ZvT is fundamentally imbalanced because for the month of September Terran did better than usual...it's absurd. Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust, or the other races are not robust enough. If that chart is accurate, clearly there is balance issues. I can't see how anyone could say differently after seeing that? To put this chart into perspective so people stop taking totally wrong conclusions from it, here's the Brood War one. Jan-Mar 2010, TvZ 50% winrate. ZvT unwinnable right? Terran OP? Mediocre terrans using their race to advance? Nerf Terran? Yeah and what does it show? In BW race winrates altered. In SC2 Terran has been winning more games than it should since day 1, while the other two races had their ups and downs. In my personal opinion, everyone who denies that terran is just objectively better than the other races is wither a terran or a moron. Or both. Especially comparing Bw terran to SC2 terran, you will see that Blizzard just let the terran keep their strenghs (like best maxed army, most efficient units, incredibly strong defensive capabilities) while they removed all the weaknesses (like immobility, high unit prices, expensive tech, expensive upgrades, the need to defend expansions, worst mining out of the 3 races, unit fragility). Together with the most forgiving economy, this makes terran imbalanced. This is the reason no terrans ever earned anything they won. Every GSL championship by a terran is a stolen one from people who deserved it.
I hope you get banned for being so sad...MvP is just so bad I guess even though his macro/micro/mechanics are miles ahead of everyone else
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On October 12 2011 22:42 Slunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:45 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:30 gold_ wrote:On October 12 2011 21:22 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:15 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:12 Tsubbi wrote:On October 12 2011 21:09 The KY wrote:
Three of the five top Koreans according to TLPD >>> are zerg. guys like you will never run out of ridiculous arguments why terran is perfectly balanced right now I don't think Terran is perfectly balanced. I think zerg isn't underpowered, and ZvT is roughly balanced. maybe take a look at this chart: http://i.imgur.com/cGzPj.png Man I hate that chart. Numbers never lie but people can draw false conclusions. For example the conclusion that unless every match up is 50% forever, the game is not balanced. What you fail to understand is that fluctuations in winrates are an unavoidable part of an asymmetrical RTS of any complexity - find the charts for BW if you like, I assure you there are times when one race does better than another. For you to claim ZvT is fundamentally imbalanced because for the month of September Terran did better than usual...it's absurd. Do I think that Terran constantly having the (slightly) better win rate is cause for concern? Yes, I think T is too robust, or the other races are not robust enough. If that chart is accurate, clearly there is balance issues. I can't see how anyone could say differently after seeing that? To put this chart into perspective so people stop taking totally wrong conclusions from it, here's the Brood War one. Jan-Mar 2010, TvZ 50% winrate. ZvT unwinnable right? Terran OP? Mediocre terrans using their race to advance? Nerf Terran? Yeah and what does it show? In BW race winrates altered. In SC2 Terran has been winning more games than it should since day 1, while the other two races had their ups and downs. In my personal opinion, everyone who denies that terran is just objectively better than the other races is wither a terran or a moron. Or both. Especially comparing Bw terran to SC2 terran, you will see that Blizzard just let the terran keep their strenghs (like best maxed army, most efficient units, incredibly strong defensive capabilities) while they removed all the weaknesses (like immobility, high unit prices, expensive tech, expensive upgrades, the need to defend expansions, worst mining out of the 3 races, unit fragility). Together with the most forgiving economy, this makes terran imbalanced. This is the reason no terrans ever earned anything they won. Every GSL championship by a terran is a stolen one from people who deserved it.
As that paragraph went on I agreed less and less until the end which is pure, blind balance whine.
Stolen from people who deserve it...don't be ridiculous.
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frankly coca got punished harshly for always doing the same build. In game 3 he would have crushed happy if he had gone for roach/ling instead of trying to go for spire and bane speed. In game 1 (daybreak) he would have won if he had scouted the proxy (frankly unlikely since i've never seen something proxied there before).
Game 2 (tal'darim) he took a very risky third without going for roaches to counter hellion/marine. Frankly that can only work if it goes unscouted and Happy was too good for that.
I wonder how long it will take before Zergs start to play the normal tech style instead of skipping roaches and going straight for muta/ling/bane.
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I see it's been another fun day for terrans. I've been playing zerg since pre-broodwar Starcraft, but it keeps bugging me to switch race to T.
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On October 12 2011 22:49 Reasonable wrote:
I see it's been another fun day for terrans. I've been playing zerg since pre-broodwar Starcraft, but it keeps bugging me to switch race to T.
why aren't you pro?
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On October 12 2011 21:55 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:52 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:25 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:21 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:18 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:14 Desert Fox wrote:
Didn't Zergs roflstomp Terrans at IPL? We basically cheesed you before you could cheese us. And there's a big difference between a tournament like IPL and GSL Code S. There's also a big difference between a player like Lucky and a player like MMA. MMA - reputed to have some of the greatest TvZ on the planet Lucky - sorry who? Lucky 3-0 MMA. Did you not read the part about me saying we cheesed you before you could cheese us? And MMA played very badly, not his usual at all. Idk if it was jetlag or something, but he's MUCH better than Lucky. If they played right now a rematch he'd probably 3-0 him. You can't take TOO much out of a weekend tournament because 1 series and you're done. I read it and disregarded it - but very well. I guess Happy just cheesed Coca before Coca could cheese him. As for taking too much from one series, that's exactly my point. Coca has famously bad ZvT and yet because he lost...a ZvT suddenly zerg is unwinnable again. P.S. Lucky 2-1 Ryung. Stephano 3-1 TheSTC EDIT: Also I'm not sure I like being included in 'you' when talking about all terrans everywhere...I don't define myself that way, I don't support only terrans in tournament, I play protoss and terran. It's not because he lost, it's because he was the last non Terran that lost. You seriously, seriously must not have watched any of Lucky's games vs Terrans at IPL. I can't even remember him not Roach ling all inning. So if the zerg all ins it doesn't count but if a Terran all ins then it's a balance issue?
But there's no such thing as a Terran all in =P
But honestly, the big difference comes from how a Terran and Zerg all in works. Terrans have a much more forgiving race that can resist regular aggression and not flat out die to an all in if caught off guard. The line between aggression and all in for Z's before they really get rolling is quite fine and all inning's far more volatile. Literally, an all in for Z's simply sustained aggression for T.
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On October 12 2011 22:52 synkronized wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 21:55 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:52 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:25 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:21 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:18 The KY wrote:On October 12 2011 21:17 Flonomenalz wrote:On October 12 2011 21:14 Desert Fox wrote:
Didn't Zergs roflstomp Terrans at IPL? We basically cheesed you before you could cheese us. And there's a big difference between a tournament like IPL and GSL Code S. There's also a big difference between a player like Lucky and a player like MMA. MMA - reputed to have some of the greatest TvZ on the planet Lucky - sorry who? Lucky 3-0 MMA. Did you not read the part about me saying we cheesed you before you could cheese us? And MMA played very badly, not his usual at all. Idk if it was jetlag or something, but he's MUCH better than Lucky. If they played right now a rematch he'd probably 3-0 him. You can't take TOO much out of a weekend tournament because 1 series and you're done. I read it and disregarded it - but very well. I guess Happy just cheesed Coca before Coca could cheese him. As for taking too much from one series, that's exactly my point. Coca has famously bad ZvT and yet because he lost...a ZvT suddenly zerg is unwinnable again. P.S. Lucky 2-1 Ryung. Stephano 3-1 TheSTC EDIT: Also I'm not sure I like being included in 'you' when talking about all terrans everywhere...I don't define myself that way, I don't support only terrans in tournament, I play protoss and terran. It's not because he lost, it's because he was the last non Terran that lost. You seriously, seriously must not have watched any of Lucky's games vs Terrans at IPL. I can't even remember him not Roach ling all inning. So if the zerg all ins it doesn't count but if a Terran all ins then it's a balance issue? But there's no such thing as a Terran all in =P But honestly, the big difference comes from how a Terran and Zerg all in works. Terrans have a much more forgiving race that can resist regular aggression and not flat out die to an all in if caught off guard. The line between aggression and all in for Z's before they really get rolling is quite fine and all inning's far more volatile. Literally, an all in for Z's simply sustained aggression for T.
Terran all ins suck...I mean protoss has FF's and zerg has banelings. How do you lose to all ins?
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Wait where'd the zergs go ?
D:
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On October 12 2011 22:29 grungust wrote:
Screw balance talk, as a non-terran GSL just got completely uninteresting. Really sad tbh won't watch the rest of the season just check results.
no idea why you felt the need to post your crybaby rant in a live report thread. Didn't we just have a zerg dominated IPL?
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EPT
