EPTThe replay that will get you the achievement.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/13969 <- if you dont trust links you can not see
Original Post
+ Show Spoiler +
While there is a post on this subject, it is very outdated. Not only did the units rebalance in the most recent patch (which is 1.41 as I'm writing this) but the AI also responds differently than it did in previous patches.
While my brother easily cannon rushed 4 very hard AI on megaton in 1.2, I refused to 'grind' achievements for just the points and wanted to beat the challenge in a 'fair' way. Now I know there is no such thing as cheese, but as I realised that, a patch change made the AI respond very appropriate to cannon rushes.
Now you can only place the forward pylon down the ramp where the AI does not see you, and on megaton this resulted in me never being able to fully harass the AI's in the back, only those two nearest to my forward base. Any attempt to expand my cannons faster resulted in them not being dense enough (the enemy army would beat them) and not expanding towards the middle of Megaton (in between the four starting locations) would leave two AI unharmed. They do not even attempt to attack my cannons, they go straight for my base and burn down my economy. Proven wrong (scroll down to the submitted video of ScottischMoo).
While I greatly prefer to finish this achievement as Zerg, I am open to suggestions for tactics of any race to get my 4 very hard AI beaten.
For the record, I beat 2 very hard ai without any cheese by playing macro zerg, but the 3 and 4 AI just kill me before I can get any substantial force. Be it crawlers or roaches to hold off the 5 minute push, they fall if I tech up. If i go for 'enough' roaches and crawlers, I find I cannot drone enough to tech to the so much needed hydra/infestor to hold off the 10 minute push. If I somehow do beat their attacking army I would be able to counter with speedlings or any hit-and-run units to take down their economies and eventually outplay them, but getting past 10 minutes just seems impossible as Zerg.
While my brother easily cannon rushed 4 very hard AI on megaton in 1.2, I refused to 'grind' achievements for just the points and wanted to beat the challenge in a 'fair' way. Now I know there is no such thing as cheese, but as I realised that, a patch change made the AI respond very appropriate to cannon rushes.
Now you can only place the forward pylon down the ramp where the AI does not see you, and on megaton this resulted in me never being able to fully harass the AI's in the back, only those two nearest to my forward base. Any attempt to expand my cannons faster resulted in them not being dense enough (the enemy army would beat them) and not expanding towards the middle of Megaton (in between the four starting locations) would leave two AI unharmed. They do not even attempt to attack my cannons, they go straight for my base and burn down my economy. Proven wrong (scroll down to the submitted video of ScottischMoo).
While I greatly prefer to finish this achievement as Zerg, I am open to suggestions for tactics of any race to get my 4 very hard AI beaten.
For the record, I beat 2 very hard ai without any cheese by playing macro zerg, but the 3 and 4 AI just kill me before I can get any substantial force. Be it crawlers or roaches to hold off the 5 minute push, they fall if I tech up. If i go for 'enough' roaches and crawlers, I find I cannot drone enough to tech to the so much needed hydra/infestor to hold off the 10 minute push. If I somehow do beat their attacking army I would be able to counter with speedlings or any hit-and-run units to take down their economies and eventually outplay them, but getting past 10 minutes just seems impossible as Zerg.
If you do have a suggestion on how to beat the 1v4 Very Hard AI challenge, please post your suggestion in the following format and make sure it worked for you or someone you saw in patch 1.41:
Map of choice:
Race:
Races of the AI:
Basic Tactic:
Detailed Tactic:
and / or
Replay:
Thanks a lot in advance!
Edit: Already attempted tactics suggested in this thread so far (read these before posting your tactic):
+ Show Spoiler +
Map of Choice: Outpost
Race: Terran
Races of the AI: 4 Zergs (by far the easiest)
Basic Tactic: Turtle hardcore while getting 2.5-3 bases, build a fleet of 3/3 BC's and repair.
Detailed Tactic: Block the main choke with PF's and about 16-20 Siege Tanks. Lock down the edges of your base with missile turrets. There are 2 points in the game where you will have the most difficulty. The first is their opening rush usually of lings/roaches. You will have to have several Bunkers (or go straight for 2x PF's) and mass repair. It's imperative that you not be shy about pulling SCV's. You should probably pull at least half. If you survive this wave, then tanks start coming out and you should be safe for the next 20 minutes or so. The next point of difficulty is when the Air starts coming, specifically Broodlords. You will want to have at least a decent number of BC's at that point with Yamato Cannon so that you can kill Broodlords from your Turret ring without overexposing your BC's to Corruptors. However Broodlords don't really start to come until ~25-30 mins so you have plenty of time to build up your BC fleet. While its possible to make everything you need to win on 2 bases, sometimes because of excessive repairing you may need a third base. I would suggest just lifting your main CC to one of the side bases and mining minerals with MULES and getting some gas.
You don't actually have to attack the AI head on to win. The AI will mine out the entire map worth of gas in about 1 hour, at which point they can only make Zerglings. Then you just a-move across the map with your BCs and win. With that starvation strat, you probably only need 2 bases to win. Of course you can attack head on also, but you will probably suffer losses or need more money to repair so then you will need to secure a 3rd base. The choice is up to you.
Reason it did not work (yet): Zerg 5 minute push with roaches (26 roaches) and some lings required at least 3 bunkers with 5 scv's repairing, making the economy fall behind. When my fourth tank popped out at 10 min my front died from the second attack of 60 roaches and 30 hydra's. I died to this push, but even more units were on their way.
This tactic was also attempted on Deadlock Ridge.
Race: Terran
Races of the AI: 4 Zergs (by far the easiest)
Basic Tactic: Turtle hardcore while getting 2.5-3 bases, build a fleet of 3/3 BC's and repair.
Detailed Tactic: Block the main choke with PF's and about 16-20 Siege Tanks. Lock down the edges of your base with missile turrets. There are 2 points in the game where you will have the most difficulty. The first is their opening rush usually of lings/roaches. You will have to have several Bunkers (or go straight for 2x PF's) and mass repair. It's imperative that you not be shy about pulling SCV's. You should probably pull at least half. If you survive this wave, then tanks start coming out and you should be safe for the next 20 minutes or so. The next point of difficulty is when the Air starts coming, specifically Broodlords. You will want to have at least a decent number of BC's at that point with Yamato Cannon so that you can kill Broodlords from your Turret ring without overexposing your BC's to Corruptors. However Broodlords don't really start to come until ~25-30 mins so you have plenty of time to build up your BC fleet. While its possible to make everything you need to win on 2 bases, sometimes because of excessive repairing you may need a third base. I would suggest just lifting your main CC to one of the side bases and mining minerals with MULES and getting some gas.
You don't actually have to attack the AI head on to win. The AI will mine out the entire map worth of gas in about 1 hour, at which point they can only make Zerglings. Then you just a-move across the map with your BCs and win. With that starvation strat, you probably only need 2 bases to win. Of course you can attack head on also, but you will probably suffer losses or need more money to repair so then you will need to secure a 3rd base. The choice is up to you.
Reason it did not work (yet): Zerg 5 minute push with roaches (26 roaches) and some lings required at least 3 bunkers with 5 scv's repairing, making the economy fall behind. When my fourth tank popped out at 10 min my front died from the second attack of 60 roaches and 30 hydra's. I died to this push, but even more units were on their way.
This tactic was also attempted on Deadlock Ridge.
Map of choice: unknown
Race: Terran
Races of the AI: 4 Zerg (or more...)
Basic Tactic: Turtle
Detailed Tactic: Wall off with planetary and tanks and BC and wait for the zergs to mine out.
Comment of the poster
There's a video out there of someone beating 1v7 Insanes. You pick Terran vs 7 Zergs and the map with 4 shared bases of 2 players each. Kill the guy next to you (the new anti-cheese AI will detect that you have a building in "his" base and drone rush you), block your choke with planetary fortresses, mass up a ton of siege tanks and wait for everyone to mine out. You don't need good mechanics to pull it off, but you need a fair amount of luck that none of the AIs decide to build much air.
Should be able to do it much easier for 1v4 Very Hard AI.
Reason it did not work: Not yet attempted due to missing information, no video link or map name.
Race: Terran
Races of the AI: 4 Zerg (or more...)
Basic Tactic: Turtle
Detailed Tactic: Wall off with planetary and tanks and BC and wait for the zergs to mine out.
Comment of the poster
There's a video out there of someone beating 1v7 Insanes. You pick Terran vs 7 Zergs and the map with 4 shared bases of 2 players each. Kill the guy next to you (the new anti-cheese AI will detect that you have a building in "his" base and drone rush you), block your choke with planetary fortresses, mass up a ton of siege tanks and wait for everyone to mine out. You don't need good mechanics to pull it off, but you need a fair amount of luck that none of the AIs decide to build much air.
Should be able to do it much easier for 1v4 Very Hard AI.
Reason it did not work: Not yet attempted due to missing information, no video link or map name.
Map of choice: Debris Field
Race: Protoss or Terran
Races of the AI: Both Zerg
Basic Tactic: Kill the Overlords of All Zergs so they cannot build units
Detailed Tactic: I played Protoss for this one, and went 1 Gate into Stargate. Begin pumping Pheonix, and fly to one of the bases. Kill all Overlords there, and lift off & kill any AA ground units. Once you have ~3-5 Pheonix, get 1 Void Ray and kill the zerg that you have been denying Overlords. It is possible to contain 2 of the 3 zergs at the start, but then you have almost no forces to defend against the units coming from the 3rd zerg. Use your extra minerals to build cannons in your base.
Reason it did not work (yet): In patch 1.41, both zerg go for a fast spire (which finishes at 5:45). Byt the time I had three phoenixes out I met one of the zerg's head on in mid air while moving to his base and had to micro my phoenixes. At the same time my base was attacked by 7 muta's (two corruptors were there too) and getting bashed by zergling drops. My 4 cannons did not survive before I could return. I was never able to pressure the zergs.
Race: Protoss or Terran
Races of the AI: Both Zerg
Basic Tactic: Kill the Overlords of All Zergs so they cannot build units
Detailed Tactic: I played Protoss for this one, and went 1 Gate into Stargate. Begin pumping Pheonix, and fly to one of the bases. Kill all Overlords there, and lift off & kill any AA ground units. Once you have ~3-5 Pheonix, get 1 Void Ray and kill the zerg that you have been denying Overlords. It is possible to contain 2 of the 3 zergs at the start, but then you have almost no forces to defend against the units coming from the 3rd zerg. Use your extra minerals to build cannons in your base.
Reason it did not work (yet): In patch 1.41, both zerg go for a fast spire (which finishes at 5:45). Byt the time I had three phoenixes out I met one of the zerg's head on in mid air while moving to his base and had to micro my phoenixes. At the same time my base was attacked by 7 muta's (two corruptors were there too) and getting bashed by zergling drops. My 4 cannons did not survive before I could return. I was never able to pressure the zergs.
Map of choice: Megaton
Race: Protoss
Races of the AI: 4 Terran or Protoss
Basic Tactic: Cannon rush the enemy.
Detailed Tactic:Cannon rush from the low ground and work your way down towards the middle with cannons.
Comment of the poster: Not sure if they retweaked it all with 1.4, but I did the cannon rush on Megaton STARTING at the bottom of the ramp in 1.3. 1 protoss vs 4. Send out probe after he takes one load of minerals in. Start at base. Put pylon in front. Warp in forge behind. put a cannon at the bottom next to this pylon, and while it's warping build another pylon on top of the ramp within the range of the bottom cannon. Then build two cannons next to this and leap frog (2 cannons one forward pylon, 2 on this, one forward pylon) to bisect the base in half exactly. One of the toss might eventually get an immortal, but with the glitchy ai around cannons you should be fine.
Reason it did not work for me: Being unable to reach the back of megaton's platform with the other two AI, they just built up and ignored my cannons, going straight for my Nexus and causing me to lose. A second attempt had the workers of all four AI along with their marines and zealots attacking my five cannons, which could not hold them back.
Edit: Thanks to ScottishMoo for proving me wrong by submitting a replay on this tactic:
Again thank you in advance and feel free to try any of these tactics for yourself if you do not believe my word for it. If requested I can also upload my fail attempts on SC2Replayed, since I saved them for the purpose of learning.
Last edit I will make: Thanks to Atreides, who managed to provide the thread with a winning tactic and related replay. Full quote of his winning post below, lots of thanks to him for all those trying to get this achievement and from me of course!
On October 05 2011 12:46 Atreides wrote:
Ok Messed around some more. Could not replicate tank turtle vs 4 VHAI. Not sure why. Tried Protoss Turtle, and Offensive Cannon Rush a couple time could not get it. Then tried the island strat on lava flow. Quite easy. Don't go BC imo. Not cost effective enough vs zerg air.
Here is a replay.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/13969
If you like doing it more "straight up" or if you want to do v3 as Protoss, v3 is quite doable both with cannon turtle and the other tank turtle style on Boneyard. (I looked at other maps you mention and this is way better as it has 3 bases.
Here is replay of P for funsies.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/13970
Should note that neither of these strats require ANY micro or macro beyond constant worker production at beginning. (maybe tiny bit of cannon micro as protoss I guess?) My macro is awful in Lava Flow game it just doesn't matter. (watched streams AND made dinner while doing this
) Also, can basically do the Island one AFK for majority of it.
Any questions ask since I now have the island one fresh in my mind, if you want to know why I did certain things, but the replay shown is not in the slightest refined. Can pretty much stop watching after 30 mins as there is nothing else to see. And it wasn't even close btw, I had ton of money left to make more thor if I needed.
Ok Messed around some more. Could not replicate tank turtle vs 4 VHAI. Not sure why. Tried Protoss Turtle, and Offensive Cannon Rush a couple time could not get it. Then tried the island strat on lava flow. Quite easy. Don't go BC imo. Not cost effective enough vs zerg air.
Here is a replay.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/13969
If you like doing it more "straight up" or if you want to do v3 as Protoss, v3 is quite doable both with cannon turtle and the other tank turtle style on Boneyard. (I looked at other maps you mention and this is way better as it has 3 bases.
Here is replay of P for funsies.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/13970
Should note that neither of these strats require ANY micro or macro beyond constant worker production at beginning. (maybe tiny bit of cannon micro as protoss I guess?) My macro is awful in Lava Flow game it just doesn't matter. (watched streams AND made dinner while doing this
) Also, can basically do the Island one AFK for majority of it.Any questions ask since I now have the island one fresh in my mind, if you want to know why I did certain things, but the replay shown is not in the slightest refined. Can pretty much stop watching after 30 mins as there is nothing else to see. And it wasn't even close btw, I had ton of money left to make more thor if I needed.
