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[Q]Probe production

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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1 2 Next All
Racenilatr
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States2756 Posts
October 30 2008 23:49 GMT
#1
I know that probe production is an important part of starcraft and that you need good saturation, but when do you stop making probes early or make them for a long time? Which situations vary the amount of probes you make?
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
October 30 2008 23:56 GMT
#2
Things like timing pushes involve making a lot of workers for a while, and then stopping to maximize unit production when your economy at his peak. You generally continue making them for passive builds or even most harass builds.
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
Xstatic
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States765 Posts
October 30 2008 23:59 GMT
#3
Generally speaking I produce probes throughout the game. More probes = more money and when I expand, I can maynard (transfer) some of my probes over to my expansion and immediately start mining resources from it. Unless you're going for some cheesy build, there's no reason to stop producing probes. If you have 4 bases running and they're all saturated, you should already have a strong economy. The goal of your early game play is to not fall behind in economy while having enough units to fend off any rushes that other players may throw at you (this requires good scouting).
Snow - Protoss the way it was meant to be, one mindgame at a time ^^
Salorian
Profile Joined October 2008
United States76 Posts
October 31 2008 01:07 GMT
#4
Never stop.
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
October 31 2008 01:32 GMT
#5
On October 31 2008 10:07 Salorian wrote:
Never stop.

Lim Yo Hwan forever!
HeavOnEarth
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States7087 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-31 01:46:22
October 31 2008 01:45 GMT
#6
0p9p8p imba
;edit;
where'd my lurky gooo NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH
im .. queen :[
"come korea next time... FXO house... 10 korean, 10 korean"
Orome
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Switzerland11984 Posts
October 31 2008 01:49 GMT
#7
The bottom line is that if you're asking when to stop building probes, you're at the stage where the answer is never. Try to build probes constantly from every nexus and leave more advanced builds that involve cutting probes until you understand the game better.
On a purely personal note, I'd like to show Yellow the beauty of infinitely repeating Starcraft 2 bunkers. -Boxer
DanceCommander
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States1808 Posts
October 31 2008 02:09 GMT
#8
too many variables that affect probe production to really adequelty explain, but if ur at a lower level, just keep spamming p ^^
BlackStar
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Netherlands3029 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-31 02:21:07
October 31 2008 02:14 GMT
#9
On October 31 2008 10:07 Salorian wrote:
Never stop.


This advice will make you lose every standard PvT and many standard PvP's vs worthwile opponents.

You probably want to stop when you hit three basis and have enough probes at all 3. Really, you don't want to sac units to get even faster resource intake. You don't want almost half your supply to be probes because then the 200/200 terran will just 1a2a3 steamroll you.


Not to mention that there are many strategies beyond more BOs where you want to cut probes.
Ziph
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Netherlands970 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-31 02:20:07
October 31 2008 02:18 GMT
#10
Never stop making them. Tho this fucked me up sometimes.
Starcraft 2 - Beta
xhuwin
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States476 Posts
October 31 2008 02:30 GMT
#11
I stop at around 120 (total supply assuming no major battles have occurred) which is when I have my first 3 bases up and running completely. Because after that, when you take more bases, your main should be about done and you don't need to build more probes.

Of course rebuild probes if you lose them to harass.
xyn
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
October 31 2008 02:30 GMT
#12
0p9p8p
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
October 31 2008 03:33 GMT
#13
If you're really wondering, max saturation occurs at 2.5 probes per min patch. However, it's most effective to stop at about 2 probes per min patch.

However, If you never stop, then you're guarenteed to be able to lose some probes to harass. It's a good habit to get into as well, because most of your pvt's (depending on your gamestyle) should end before you hit 3-4 base saturation. (4 base saturation is a little much, but it means that you can run 11-15 gates if you so choose).
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
TheFoReveRwaR
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States10657 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-31 05:20:29
October 31 2008 04:42 GMT
#14
Miniguide (not really)

Instead of giving broad advice, I'll talk about a particular style of play and describe it in more dtail. One of the most solid ways to manage overall probe production on a lot of maps(maps that have an expansion that is farther away from the opponent than your main, or very close to your nat ) is to follow this timing. Of course you can't play this way every game or you will become too predictable. This guide has a lot to do with game management as a protoss.

In general you pump probes non stop getting your nat as soon as you safely can. I won't really go to into details about the best ways to do this here though cause that would make it way too long Pump goons off 2 gate with range and use the goons to delay forward movement by the terran as well as to deny scouting. Start a robo as soon as you can afford the gas and get observatory. Time to check him out. All this time you're making probes non stop.

The next 400 minerals after starting your observatory , keeping up on pylons, and making goons from your 2 gates should be a nexus at the safest possible 3rd. Make sure to send 2 to 3 goons to clear/check the area so you have a higher chance of being able to place your nexus. Most skilled terrans place mines to scout probe movement and simply pick the probe off so you have to sorta give him some bouncers. All the time make probes once again.

It isnt as far into the game as this sounds Transfer probes to even them out amongst the 3 bases. Work on your probes arriving to the new minerals at the same time the nexus is warping in. At this point stop probe production and add a lot of gates. Always pump goons non stop, keeping up in pylons. The idea here is to always be using goons to slow the terran movement from out of his natural but also have a few spare goons to guard drops, and to escourt your probe.

All excess minerals from here should go into adding more gates as quickly as possible with the exception of a citadel after your 5th gate is placed. Pump goons from all your gates until your zeal speed finishes. All excess minerals should be used on gates until you have 8. From here you should have been able to scout him. Theres a wide variety of things the terran could be doing. But basically you pump units until you are pretty sure your army could beat or seriously damage the terran army.

From here you have certain priorities/"game styles" and they exist based on what the terran is doing. I won't go into detail on exactly when to do which but list them generally. I won't even name them They aren't necessarily in any particular order because of all the things terran can do late game.
a. resume probe production

b. keep probe proudction stoped because the terran has launched a very strong timing attack and you think you will need to add more gates. In this situation you should add more gates immediatly to 10 and continue to pump until you clear the push.

c. realize the terran is turtling and looks to move out with a massive upgraded fast moving push and prepare a late game counter like early arbs (example: recall on his facts when he moves out) or carriers(example: the map has a lot of good cliffs and tight spaces that make ground movement more difficult)

d. prepare upgrades, definitely at least a check forge for +1 weapons and possibly needed cannons if your opponent is doing vulture drops or tactics like it effectively

e. get early templar for either templar drops or push to help crush an terran upgraded timing push

f. This style requires the most multitasking/stress. The terran is doing an aggresive but solid push towards your main. Hes positioning his units well but moving quickly toward your base. Hes using mines to delay scouts and stop flanks. Hes using vulture groups to make your game play expierence more difficult even IF you respond correctly to the harass, it still takes attention away from other things AND hes taking safe expansions protected by his push. Tough shit

But there are things you can do, they just require some great army management. Here you should just pump probes while using your goons in force to delay the push. Make sure you keep some goons..6 or so back to defend your bases from vult sneaks/backstabs. Still at 8 gates , stop units productin for a while and get a quick 4th. This is a very difficult style to play against and requires really good obs use and army usage. You can't afford mistakes vs a very skilled terran. From here you should just start a plus one upgrade and cannon your 4th and possibly your third depending on the map. When your 4th has enough probes to operate reasonably add many many gates and stop probe production. Also constantly add gates until you have 14 or 15 (if you cant macro your money low with that than just add more!). Using that quick army from those early huge amount of gates max then attack the push, positioning your army for maximum damage. Important: Throughout this style of game always look with obs at your opponents nat choke and nearby area to see if you can backstab to his facts and take some down. BUT WAIT! If you cant see it clearly, dont try to back stab the area. Don't throw the game away running somewhere you cant see unless you were just there At least run a zealot first.

I spent a lot of time on this because this style of play has trouble with it. Because of your early 3rd you wont be able to hold off defensive push early enough to keep them for also securing their third and making it a macro war.

Please remember this is just an example of one startegy to help break down what smart probe/game management is. This is not necessarily the best way to play, but it is a style that can be played even by slower players. I don't think I'm pro or anything and I'm sure there are better ways to play this build but the situations are endless and the reactions always very. That's what bw is about. Reading situations and adapting perfectly.
Being healthy, it has been said, really consists of having the same disease as everybody else.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-31 05:08:30
October 31 2008 05:07 GMT
#15
On October 31 2008 11:14 BlackStar wrote:You don't want almost half your supply to be probes because then the 200/200 terran will just 1a2a3 steamroll you.


This shouldn't happen if you have proper gateway-nexus ratio and keep units pumping too, because at proper gateway-nexus ratio, you make military units much faster than you do probes. You shouldn't ever really need to consciously cut probe production at low level play unless its specifically for timing purposes. If your probe ratio gets out of whack, its most likely because you threw away forces you shouldn't have (a-moving into sieged terran), or didn't keep all your gateways running, not because you should have cut probes (e.g. you had not enough military, not too many probes).
Moderator
dream-_-
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
United States1857 Posts
October 31 2008 05:07 GMT
#16
the more probes you have per accessible mineral patch, the less effective each one is.
knowing this, its up to you to decide when to stop based on the style and flow of the game.
BlackStar
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Netherlands3029 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-31 05:20:12
October 31 2008 05:19 GMT
#17
On October 31 2008 14:07 TheYango wrote:
This shouldn't happen if you have proper gateway-nexus ratio


Sometimes proper gateway-nexus ratio is 1 gataway and 3 nexi.

And it will still happen because your units die and your probes won't. You just need to stop at some point.

And I am not even sure you will cap out in time to prevent you from getting too many probes.

You shouldn't ever really need to consciously cut probe production at low level play unless its specifically for timing purposes.


Do you ever cut probes not for specific purposes? You do need to do it at lower levels. Just a bit less. Low level SC is pretty damn high.

If your probe ratio gets out of whack, its most likely because you threw away forces you shouldn't have


Has nothing to do with it. How should you have made less probes if you lose all your units by throwing them away? Don't understand this at all. Yeah, your ratio gets whack. But it's irrelevant. If you lose your army you want every probe you could get.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-31 05:35:52
October 31 2008 05:31 GMT
#18
On October 31 2008 14:19 BlackStar wrote:
Has nothing to do with it. How should you have made less probes if you lose all your units by throwing them away? Don't understand this at all. Yeah, your ratio gets whack. But it's irrelevant. If you lose your army you want every probe you could get.


You missed my point. If you build up with standard play, and don't lose a large army, you should max with around 3 bases' worth of probes. Your ratio SHOULDN'T get whacked unless you made a major blunder with your army or your timing, or on the off-chance that the game goes on so long and is so back-and-forth that you trade large armies multiple times. But the likelihood of such games at low levels is small.

Terran shouldn't hit 200/200 at low-level play unless a) there was no major fighting until he hit 200/200, in which case you should have proper probe ratio anyway, and shouldn't need to worry about cutting probes; or b) he was winning anyway; at which point you should be focusing on where he took the advantage, not on whether or not you should have cut probe production.

Orome had it right. If you're at the level of play where you're asking when to cut probes, you aren't playing enough games in which it matters to do so.
Moderator
BlackStar
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Netherlands3029 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-10-31 05:56:29
October 31 2008 05:47 GMT
#19
The "The bottom line is that if you're asking when to stop building probes, you're at the stage where the answer is never." is a bad answer because the answer will be the same for everyone. Too many probes for a low level player is also too many for a high level player.

I guess there are people that are just too slow to ever get too many probes before they lose. But that's not a basis for any argument.
Sure, the "Just keep making them, don't worry about too many because you really don't have enough." is a good guideline for some.
And maybe you can say that "Only stop after you maxed out." is a good guideline in many cases. But that's not what anyone said. And one can do better.

Point is that many toss players have this 8p9p0 reflex and if they keep doing it all game long they will get 75+ supply worth of probes and lose the game because of it.

'Never stop' is just wrong and horrible advice.
Guybrush
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
Spain4744 Posts
October 31 2008 05:47 GMT
#20
Take Andromeda as an example.
24+gas - main - 9 min patches
12 - min only - 5 min patches
20+gas natural - 8 min patches
8+gas island 6 min patches
The reason you have more on your mineral only is because you should transfer 8 probes with shuttle and make 3 out of the nexus for gas. It is also more urgent to have higher saturation on your land expos, so you can transfer directly without using much time with shuttle-transfering.

Thats 67 probes spread out on 4 bases. This should be more than enough economy to win you the game. You should count them every game until you know the timing of when to stop. Once you've learned that it shouldnt be anything you think about during the game.

Dont listen to people telling you to make constantly, but try to follow the setup I gave you until it goes automatically.

Remember to replace your losses if/when you lose any. This is extremely important.
Live2Win is awesome. Happy new year scarabi!
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