EPT[Q]Probe production
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
| ||
|
Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
| ||
|
Xstatic
United States765 Posts
| ||
|
Salorian
United States76 Posts
| ||
|
Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On October 31 2008 10:07 Salorian wrote: Never stop. | ||
|
HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
;edit; where'd my lurky gooo  NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHim .. queen :[ | ||
|
Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
| ||
|
DanceCommander
United States1808 Posts
| ||
|
BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On October 31 2008 10:07 Salorian wrote: Never stop. This advice will make you lose every standard PvT and many standard PvP's vs worthwile opponents. You probably want to stop when you hit three basis and have enough probes at all 3. Really, you don't want to sac units to get even faster resource intake. You don't want almost half your supply to be probes because then the 200/200 terran will just 1a2a3 steamroll you. Not to mention that there are many strategies beyond more BOs where you want to cut probes. | ||
|
Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
| ||
|
xhuwin
United States476 Posts
Of course rebuild probes if you lose them to harass. | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
| ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
However, If you never stop, then you're guarenteed to be able to lose some probes to harass. It's a good habit to get into as well, because most of your pvt's (depending on your gamestyle) should end before you hit 3-4 base saturation. (4 base saturation is a little much, but it means that you can run 11-15 gates if you so choose). | ||
|
TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
 (not really)Instead of giving broad advice, I'll talk about a particular style of play and describe it in more dtail. One of the most solid ways to manage overall probe production on a lot of maps(maps that have an expansion that is farther away from the opponent than your main, or very close to your nat ) is to follow this timing. Of course you can't play this way every game or you will become too predictable. This guide has a lot to do with game management as a protoss. In general you pump probes non stop getting your nat as soon as you safely can. I won't really go to into details about the best ways to do this here though cause that would make it way too long Pump goons off 2 gate with range and use the goons to delay forward movement by the terran as well as to deny scouting. Start a robo as soon as you can afford the gas and get observatory. Time to check him out. All this time you're making probes non stop. The next 400 minerals after starting your observatory , keeping up on pylons, and making goons from your 2 gates should be a nexus at the safest possible 3rd. Make sure to send 2 to 3 goons to clear/check the area so you have a higher chance of being able to place your nexus. Most skilled terrans place mines to scout probe movement and simply pick the probe off so you have to sorta give him some bouncers. All the time make probes once again. It isnt as far into the game as this sounds Transfer probes to even them out amongst the 3 bases. Work on your probes arriving to the new minerals at the same time the nexus is warping in. At this point stop probe production and add a lot of gates. Always pump goons non stop, keeping up in pylons. The idea here is to always be using goons to slow the terran movement from out of his natural but also have a few spare goons to guard drops, and to escourt your probe. All excess minerals from here should go into adding more gates as quickly as possible with the exception of a citadel after your 5th gate is placed. Pump goons from all your gates until your zeal speed finishes. All excess minerals should be used on gates until you have 8. From here you should have been able to scout him. Theres a wide variety of things the terran could be doing. But basically you pump units until you are pretty sure your army could beat or seriously damage the terran army. From here you have certain priorities/"game styles" and they exist based on what the terran is doing. I won't go into detail on exactly when to do which but list them generally. I won't even name them They aren't necessarily in any particular order because of all the things terran can do late game.a. resume probe production b. keep probe proudction stoped because the terran has launched a very strong timing attack and you think you will need to add more gates. In this situation you should add more gates immediatly to 10 and continue to pump until you clear the push. c. realize the terran is turtling and looks to move out with a massive upgraded fast moving push and prepare a late game counter like early arbs (example: recall on his facts when he moves out) or carriers(example: the map has a lot of good cliffs and tight spaces that make ground movement more difficult) d. prepare upgrades, definitely at least a check forge for +1 weapons and possibly needed cannons if your opponent is doing vulture drops or tactics like it effectively e. get early templar for either templar drops or push to help crush an terran upgraded timing push f. This style requires the most multitasking/stress. The terran is doing an aggresive but solid push towards your main. Hes positioning his units well but moving quickly toward your base. Hes using mines to delay scouts and stop flanks. Hes using vulture groups to make your game play expierence more difficult even IF you respond correctly to the harass, it still takes attention away from other things AND hes taking safe expansions protected by his push. Tough shit But there are things you can do, they just require some great army management. Here you should just pump probes while using your goons in force to delay the push. Make sure you keep some goons..6 or so back to defend your bases from vult sneaks/backstabs. Still at 8 gates , stop units productin for a while and get a quick 4th. This is a very difficult style to play against and requires really good obs use and army usage. You can't afford mistakes vs a very skilled terran. From here you should just start a plus one upgrade and cannon your 4th and possibly your third depending on the map. When your 4th has enough probes to operate reasonably add many many gates and stop probe production. Also constantly add gates until you have 14 or 15 (if you cant macro your money low with that than just add more!). Using that quick army from those early huge amount of gates max then attack the push, positioning your army for maximum damage. Important: Throughout this style of game always look with obs at your opponents nat choke and nearby area to see if you can backstab to his facts and take some down. BUT WAIT! If you cant see it clearly, dont try to back stab the area. Don't throw the game away running somewhere you cant see unless you were just there At least run a zealot first. I spent a lot of time on this because this style of play has trouble with it. Because of your early 3rd you wont be able to hold off defensive push early enough to keep them for also securing their third and making it a macro war. Please remember this is just an example of one startegy to help break down what smart probe/game management is. This is not necessarily the best way to play, but it is a style that can be played even by slower players. I don't think I'm pro or anything and I'm sure there are better ways to play this build but the situations are endless and the reactions always very. That's what bw is about. Reading situations and adapting perfectly. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 31 2008 11:14 BlackStar wrote:You don't want almost half your supply to be probes because then the 200/200 terran will just 1a2a3 steamroll you. This shouldn't happen if you have proper gateway-nexus ratio and keep units pumping too, because at proper gateway-nexus ratio, you make military units much faster than you do probes. You shouldn't ever really need to consciously cut probe production at low level play unless its specifically for timing purposes. If your probe ratio gets out of whack, its most likely because you threw away forces you shouldn't have (a-moving into sieged terran), or didn't keep all your gateways running, not because you should have cut probes (e.g. you had not enough military, not too many probes). | ||
|
dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
knowing this, its up to you to decide when to stop based on the style and flow of the game. | ||
|
BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
On October 31 2008 14:07 TheYango wrote: This shouldn't happen if you have proper gateway-nexus ratio Sometimes proper gateway-nexus ratio is 1 gataway and 3 nexi. And it will still happen because your units die and your probes won't. You just need to stop at some point. And I am not even sure you will cap out in time to prevent you from getting too many probes. You shouldn't ever really need to consciously cut probe production at low level play unless its specifically for timing purposes. Do you ever cut probes not for specific purposes? You do need to do it at lower levels. Just a bit less. Low level SC is pretty damn high. If your probe ratio gets out of whack, its most likely because you threw away forces you shouldn't have Has nothing to do with it. How should you have made less probes if you lose all your units by throwing them away? Don't understand this at all. Yeah, your ratio gets whack. But it's irrelevant. If you lose your army you want every probe you could get. | ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 31 2008 14:19 BlackStar wrote: Has nothing to do with it. How should you have made less probes if you lose all your units by throwing them away? Don't understand this at all. Yeah, your ratio gets whack. But it's irrelevant. If you lose your army you want every probe you could get. You missed my point. If you build up with standard play, and don't lose a large army, you should max with around 3 bases' worth of probes. Your ratio SHOULDN'T get whacked unless you made a major blunder with your army or your timing, or on the off-chance that the game goes on so long and is so back-and-forth that you trade large armies multiple times. But the likelihood of such games at low levels is small. Terran shouldn't hit 200/200 at low-level play unless a) there was no major fighting until he hit 200/200, in which case you should have proper probe ratio anyway, and shouldn't need to worry about cutting probes; or b) he was winning anyway; at which point you should be focusing on where he took the advantage, not on whether or not you should have cut probe production. Orome had it right. If you're at the level of play where you're asking when to cut probes, you aren't playing enough games in which it matters to do so. | ||
|
BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
I guess there are people that are just too slow to ever get too many probes before they lose. But that's not a basis for any argument. Sure, the "Just keep making them, don't worry about too many because you really don't have enough." is a good guideline for some. And maybe you can say that "Only stop after you maxed out." is a good guideline in many cases. But that's not what anyone said. And one can do better. Point is that many toss players have this 8p9p0 reflex and if they keep doing it all game long they will get 75+ supply worth of probes and lose the game because of it. 'Never stop' is just wrong and horrible advice. | ||
|
Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
24+gas - main - 9 min patches 12 - min only - 5 min patches 20+gas natural - 8 min patches 8+gas island 6 min patches The reason you have more on your mineral only is because you should transfer 8 probes with shuttle and make 3 out of the nexus for gas. It is also more urgent to have higher saturation on your land expos, so you can transfer directly without using much time with shuttle-transfering. Thats 67 probes spread out on 4 bases. This should be more than enough economy to win you the game. You should count them every game until you know the timing of when to stop. Once you've learned that it shouldnt be anything you think about during the game. Dont listen to people telling you to make constantly, but try to follow the setup I gave you until it goes automatically. Remember to replace your losses if/when you lose any. This is extremely important. | ||
|
Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
On October 31 2008 14:07 dream-_- wrote: the more probes you have per accessible mineral patch, the less effective each one is. knowing this, its up to you to decide when to stop based on the style and flow of the game. This is also a great advice. For example in Zergs situation you have the mobility to have expansions across the map hence you want to have smaller saturation to make your drones mine more optimal; meaning they always have a mineral patch to go to that is not occupied by some other drone. | ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 31 2008 14:47 BlackStar wrote: The "The bottom line is that if you're asking when to stop building probes, you're at the stage where the answer is never." is a bad answer because the answer will be the same for everyone. Too many probes for a low level player is also too many for a high level player. I guess there are people that are just too slow to ever get too many probes before they lose. But that's not a basis for any argument. Sure, the "Just keep making them, don't worry about too many because you really don't have enough." is a good guideline for some. And maybe you can say that "Only stop after you maxed out." is a good guideline in many cases. But that's not what anyone said. And one can do better. Point is that many toss players have this 8p9p0 reflex and if they keep doing it all game long they will get 75+ supply worth of probes and lose the game because of it. 'Never stop' is just wrong and horrible advice. Except at low levels, there are far better things to practice then when to stop probe production. Yes it makes a difference, but the amount of time invested learning when to stop probes differently on different maps can be better spent learning better unit control, multitasking, timing, etc., etc. At a higher level, when you've nailed down the basics, THEN its efficient to learn when to stop probe production. At low levels, it doesn't make a difference often enough to be worth the amount of time needed to learn probe saturations on different maps. Why learn to walk before you can even stand properly? | ||
|
BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
| ||
|
SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
| ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 31 2008 15:32 BlackStar wrote: This isn't about what to practice at lower levels. This is about answering this very basic simple question. Really, you are almost proposing a white lie: "Let's give the wrong answer because that's more beneficial.". How is saying that "not stopping is generally good enough at a low level of play" lying? I never said that never stopping was a general answer, only that at low-level play one shouldn't worry about it, because the time spent learning when to cut probes isn't efficient. The question was obviously asked because the OP wants to improve his play. Isn't "you'll improve your play more by worrying about other things" more helpful to that goal than saying that "it varies from map to map due to the different rates at which different mineral patches reach saturation?" | ||
|
ocoini
648 Posts
Keep makeing workers til your multitasking can't keep up, and in each game, keep pushing it and keep makeing workers as long as you can. You can always bring the probes out to fight/if your eco is insane. | ||
|
KwarK
United States42640 Posts
| ||
|
clazziquai
6685 Posts
So I think at one point, you should stop making probes...idk haha i don't pvt any more so | ||
|
kemoryan
Spain1506 Posts
On November 01 2008 00:14 TheYango wrote: The question was obviously asked because the OP wants to improve his play. Isn't "you'll improve your play more by worrying about other things" more helpful to that goal than saying that "it varies from map to map due to the different rates at which different mineral patches reach saturation?" No. OP asked a specific question. Whatever his underlying goal might be, its more helpful if you answer his question than telling him anything else which he wasn't asking for. | ||
ReiKo
Croatia1023 Posts
Can't get rid of it | ||
|
Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
Also very nice mini-guide ^^ | ||
|
Equaoh
Canada427 Posts
| ||
|
Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
| ||
|
Leath
Canada1724 Posts
Macro will make a huge difference in your playing power. More importantly, once you can make probes continuously and accurately (1-2 at a time, non-stop) you will standardize the game timing, cuz every game you will have very similar economic power and therefore be able to always support the same army size as you did in previous game. Why is that good? Because that is a great way to learn timing. Based on a standard you can then know what are the best time to cut probes to create an army of a given size that will help you hurt the opponent. ____________________________________ When to cut probes? I like to think in term of priority. If you are planning to expand soon, it probably doesnt make sense to stop probes. If you are planning a timing attack, it probably makes sense to stop probes. Commonly: 8 pylon, 10 gate, 12 gate, 15 pylon, 21 gate (stop probes at 21/25) this allows you to get 2 more zealots while throwing a third gate. I do this often vs zerg after a FE. I stop probes a bit after getting core to throw down the 3-4 gates and speed, +1attack. In pvp if you are following a passive build, like 2 gates dragoons obs, and then see your opponent expanded and is starting to collect, usually it makes sense to stop probe productions throw down 1-2 more gates and/or support bay to try to punish him for being greedy. | ||
|
alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
| ||
|
Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
| ||
|
capek
United States585 Posts
On November 01 2008 11:10 Leath wrote: If you are planning to expand soon, it probably doesnt make sense to stop probes. If you are planning a timing attack, it probably makes sense to stop probes. Simple, effective, truthful | ||
|
Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
| ||
|
BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
| ||
|
Ethelis
United States2396 Posts
On November 02 2008 10:35 Racenilatr wrote: well....protoss doesnt have stuff like terran timing pushes or anyhting...or do they? stork vs best @ medusa in osl :\ | ||
| ||
