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On October 31 2008 14:07 dream-_- wrote:
the more probes you have per accessible mineral patch, the less effective each one is.
knowing this, its up to you to decide when to stop based on the style and flow of the game.
This is also a great advice. For example in Zergs situation you have the mobility to have expansions across the map hence you want to have smaller saturation to make your drones mine more optimal; meaning they always have a mineral patch to go to that is not occupied by some other drone.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 31 2008 14:47 BlackStar wrote:
The "The bottom line is that if you're asking when to stop building probes, you're at the stage where the answer is never." is a bad answer because the answer will be the same for everyone. Too many probes for a low level player is also too many for a high level player.
I guess there are people that are just too slow to ever get too many probes before they lose. But that's not a basis for any argument.
Sure, the "Just keep making them, don't worry about too many because you really don't have enough." is a good guideline for some.
And maybe you can say that "Only stop after you maxed out." is a good guideline in many cases. But that's not what anyone said. And one can do better.
Point is that many toss players have this 8p9p0 reflex and if they keep doing it all game long they will get 75+ supply worth of probes and lose the game because of it.
'Never stop' is just wrong and horrible advice.
Except at low levels, there are far better things to practice then when to stop probe production. Yes it makes a difference, but the amount of time invested learning when to stop probes differently on different maps can be better spent learning better unit control, multitasking, timing, etc., etc. At a higher level, when you've nailed down the basics, THEN its efficient to learn when to stop probe production. At low levels, it doesn't make a difference often enough to be worth the amount of time needed to learn probe saturations on different maps.
Why learn to walk before you can even stand properly?
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This isn't about what to practice at lower levels. This is about answering this very basic simple question. Really, you are almost proposing a white lie: "Let's give the wrong answer because that's more beneficial.".
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Hmmm, I never stop until I feel that the saturation is enough, and this usually happens when I'm in 3 bases already, because my army needs population too so I can't just dedicate my whole psi count to probes now can I?
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United States47024 Posts
On October 31 2008 15:32 BlackStar wrote:
This isn't about what to practice at lower levels. This is about answering this very basic simple question. Really, you are almost proposing a white lie: "Let's give the wrong answer because that's more beneficial.".
How is saying that "not stopping is generally good enough at a low level of play" lying? I never said that never stopping was a general answer, only that at low-level play one shouldn't worry about it, because the time spent learning when to cut probes isn't efficient. The question was obviously asked because the OP wants to improve his play. Isn't "you'll improve your play more by worrying about other things" more helpful to that goal than saying that "it varies from map to map due to the different rates at which different mineral patches reach saturation?"
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max probe per patch is not 2.5 like someone said.. might be like that when you just have 1 patch to mine. but its more like 4-6 per patch cause of the ai moveing from patch to patch and income increases all the time. But really the only reason to stop worker production, if you are doing a standard play is if you have to counter your opponents play with more units/buildings/etc..whatever.
Keep makeing workers til your multitasking can't keep up, and in each game, keep pushing it and keep makeing workers as long as you can. You can always bring the probes out to fight/if your eco is insane.
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United States43821 Posts
Very game dependent. If the opponent keeps killing your probes then keep making them. If not then 70 or so is generally enough.
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I changed my style because I used to make a lot of probes constantly so when I had a maxed army, my army didn't seem like a max, a little smaller.
So I think at one point, you should stop making probes...idk haha i don't pvt any more so 
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On November 01 2008 00:14 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2008 15:32 BlackStar wrote:
This isn't about what to practice at lower levels. This is about answering this very basic simple question. Really, you are almost proposing a white lie: "Let's give the wrong answer because that's more beneficial.".
The question was obviously asked because the OP wants to improve his play. Isn't "you'll improve your play more by worrying about other things" more helpful to that goal than saying that "it varies from map to map due to the different rates at which different mineral patches reach saturation?"
No. OP asked a specific question. Whatever his underlying goal might be, its more helpful if you answer his question than telling him anything else which he wasn't asking for.
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I will only say that BlackStar has great advices and that I'm the one of 1000 Protoss'es that has 9p0p syndrom  Can't get rid of it
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lol well thanks for the help everyone. I really asked this because sometimes there will be a heavy harassment and that sorta screws my econ over. I dont lose many probes but mostly i lose precious mining time which throws me completely off. Then i feel like i never have enough money and am always short on mins >_>
Also very nice mini-guide ^^
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so ~20 probes per base, including gas?
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hmm. I would have to say that would be way too low
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I would go with the advice "never stop" if you are learning the game.
Macro will make a huge difference in your playing power.
More importantly, once you can make probes continuously and accurately (1-2 at a time, non-stop) you will standardize the game timing, cuz every game you will have very similar economic power and therefore be able to always support the same army size as you did in previous game.
Why is that good?
Because that is a great way to learn timing. Based on a standard you can then know what are the best time to cut probes to create an army of a given size that will help you hurt the opponent.
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When to cut probes?
I like to think in term of priority.
If you are planning to expand soon, it probably doesnt make sense to stop probes.
If you are planning a timing attack, it probably makes sense to stop probes.
Commonly:
8 pylon, 10 gate, 12 gate, 15 pylon, 21 gate (stop probes at 21/25)
this allows you to get 2 more zealots while throwing a third gate.
I do this often vs zerg after a FE. I stop probes a bit after getting core to throw down the 3-4 gates and speed, +1attack.
In pvp if you are following a passive build, like 2 gates dragoons obs, and then see your opponent expanded and is starting to collect, usually it makes sense to stop probe productions throw down 1-2 more gates and/or support bay to try to punish him for being greedy.
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honestly anyone D+ and below is not going to be able to maintain constant peon production anyways, so its good to keep a mindset of always build probes while you are still learning. once basic macro is automatic for you, then you can put in stipulations for when to stop producing to maximize your army count temporarily.
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im not learning the game. I got the basics down and its not from a D- perspective of how important probe production is
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On November 01 2008 11:10 Leath wrote:
If you are planning to expand soon, it probably doesnt make sense to stop probes.
If you are planning a timing attack, it probably makes sense to stop probes.
Simple, effective, truthful
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well....protoss doesnt have stuff like terran timing pushes or anyhting...or do they?
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On November 02 2008 10:35 Racenilatr wrote:
well....protoss doesnt have stuff like terran timing pushes or anyhting...or do they?
stork vs best @ medusa in osl :\
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EPT
