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Maps for TSL2 (and the foreigner map-making scene)

Forum Index > Razer TSL Forum
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anotak
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1537 Posts
June 07 2008 10:45 GMT
#1
I know I'm quite a bit of a noob around here, and with competitive SC in general, but I hope I have a good idea here:

I thought of this while reading NastyMarine's topic about his map (Spinel Valley), and I figured it was important enough to warrant it's own thread. I also was influenced by reading the interview with Rose.Of.Dream (of the OGN mapmaking team) earlier today. Some of the maps in TSL were less-than-interesting (Longinus mainly). I felt this way since the round of 16. Other games I felt like were rehashes of games I'd already seen in OSL and MSL just with less good mechanics and cooler players and a much better event... but a rehash nonetheless.

I think we need is some foreigner-made maps instead of just Korean maps. I don't mean to say throw out all the Korean maps, I just mean introducing 1-2 foreigner maps per season alongside Korean maps in TSL. I am modeling this idea on how OSL and MSL introduce new maps. If TSL has it's own maps that would help it be more than just an imitation of Korean Starleagues. Don't take me wrong, I love TSL. It's a damn GOOD event and it made me extremely happy. My emotions could not be contained as I watched games of IdrA, Brat, JF, Nony, HoRRoR. Now that we (foreigners) have our own Starleague, we should have our own maps.

It'd force new strategies, players wouldn't be able to rely on copying that of Korean progamers. Also, some balance factors are different for foreigners than koreans, foreigner maps could be more tailored to foreigner play.

These maps I think would be best made by having a TeamLiquid mapmaking team consisting of 3-5 already known mapmakers (chosen by TL staff) much like the way OGN seems to do it, and these mapmakers making several maps and then being sent around internally, modified, ideas added and removed, testing with both some kind of testing team and with high-level foreigners and then the mapmakers finally cutting out several maps, leaving only 1-3 per season. While others might suggest a public poll or somesuch with maps to be honest i think that would cause a lot of badly thought out and gimmicky maps to be put through. If some map was that great and made by somebody not on that mapmaking team then I'm sure there could be some way to communicate with the team or something, and maybe consider it. We just need a foreigner Othello, not a foreigner DMZ or Demon's Forest. People who were in TSL RO16 and various clans could be asked to test the maps for balance and various issues. And already existing TSL admins would review the mapmaking team's choices and narrow it down further. Considering TSL's relationship with ICCUP this would probably need to be connected with ICCUP admins as well. Then you'd have the 1-3 maps you'd need, and you could reveal them in time for TSL2 by about a week or so. I believe I heard a rumor somewhere that TSL2 is aimed for August. Well, to get maps going I suggest quick organization of a mapmaking team (if my idea is any good, which it may not be)

Part of increasing the size of the foreign starcraft scene is the need to do something to the slowly dying foreign melee mapmaking scene. This is from someone who several times started working on maps, but never did very much with it, because only 2 people at most would ever play the map (not implying that I would be up to the task of making maps for TSL, there are much better mapmakers on here and on other sites that should be contacted).

I hope that I'm not out of line with this post or just that it's a bad idea.... but I hope that it's a good idea and I would rather see new and interesting games on foreigner maps rather than just games, while beautiful and interesting, that are still people trying to imitate Korean strategies on Korean maps.

This is from someone who absolutely loved TSL, and wants to see TSL2 succeed and TSL become a repeating thing, not just a few times and then fade away into forgottenness.

Again, sorry if I'm out of line with my postcount that is less than some people's APM.
trollbone
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
France1905 Posts
June 07 2008 11:01 GMT
#2
maybe u can add it on the thread "Official Razer TSL Review"
anotak
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1537 Posts
June 07 2008 11:30 GMT
#3
A conversation on IRC I had about this:
+ Show Spoiler +
(05:56:16) heavenpanda: anotak
(05:56:28) heavenpanda: it must be
(05:56:32) heavenpanda: incredibly hard
(05:56:37) heavenpanda: to introduce balanced custom maps
(05:56:18) anotak: yes?
(05:56:57) anotak: of course it's incredibly hard
(05:57:06) anotak: koreans don't do it right either
(05:57:51) anotak: heavenpanda: we shouldn't give up though if it's hard
(05:58:40) heavenpanda: anotak: just saying if players lose because of imbalance found on an amateur map, we'll be in a whole new world of drama
(05:59:45) anotak: heavenpanda: that's definitely true
(06:00:11) anotak: however... shit like Katrina PvT has been going on with Korean mapmakers
(06:00:23) anotak: the maps should be tested with all TSL players from ro16
(06:00:29) anotak: or ro32
(06:00:37) anotak: and then their opinions LISTENED to
(06:00:52) Puosu: why the fuck should amateur maps be used anyway
(06:00:57) Puosu: in a serious tournament
(06:01:01) anotak: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=72894
(06:01:16) heavenpanda: anotak: if we get to tsl finals and in practice, one player finds a positional imbalance or something
(06:01:18) anotak: why the fuck should amateur foreigners have a tournament Puosu
(06:01:21) heavenpanda: the other player will contest it forever
(06:02:19) anotak: I don't see why, if they don't contest shit like Longinus or Wuthering or Blue Storm
(06:02:37) heavenpanda: those maps have been vetted and all their positional oddities are well known
(06:03:00) anotak: so it's okay to have complete imbalance if the OGN mapmaking team makes it?
(06:03:40) heavenpanda: no, its okay when a battalion of korean progamers have studied it intensely and found no major advantage one way or the other
(06:04:05) anotak: korean progamers are balanced differently than foreigners anyway
(06:04:16) anotak: we have the word of people like Nony and Artosis on that
(06:04:28) anotak: who presumably know what they're talking about
(06:06:02) anotak: the first maps should be symmetrical if positional imbalance is a fear
(06:06:14) heavenpanda: well
(06:06:19) heavenpanda: the problem i see is
(06:06:22) heavenpanda: for 5000$
(06:06:24) anotak: i mean some OSL maps have some pretty obvious positional imbalances (ex. othello)
(06:06:28) heavenpanda: these players dont want to have to worry
(06:06:31) heavenpanda: about the maps
(06:06:51) anotak: I love Othello... but the rotational symmetry makes the drop spot imbalanced based on whether it's facing the opponent
(06:07:38) anotak: and in pretty much all the positions, one player will have that drop spot facing towards and the other player will have his drop spot in a safer position
(06:09:29) anotak: I mean I can understand if I don't get listened to
(06:09:37) anotak: and we keep using korean maps
(06:09:40) anotak: but...
(06:09:58) anotak: I feel like this could be pretty important and good for both the foreigner scene and for future TSLs
(06:10:12) heavenpanda: if its handled perfectly, yes
(06:10:24) anotak: the TSL itself was handled pretty well
(06:10:46) anotak: given your points, I'd suggest aiming for only 1 map for the next TSL
(06:11:06) anotak: another point is that if it's used in the ladder stages
(06:11:18) heavenpanda: what i see hapening is, with 5000$ on the line, some player is gonna get harrassed or cheesed or slip up somehow and say 'bullshit this wouldntve happened on a real map' and then the drama begins..
(06:11:26) anotak: statistics of a LOT of players can be gathered about maps beforehand
(06:12:07) anotak: i mean, i don't know what to say to that except 'bullshit you helped test it'
(06:12:12) heavenpanda: lol
(06:13:44) anotak: heavenpanda: has anyone ever tried to say that in korean leagues?
(06:13:52) anotak: blame it on the map?
(06:13:59) heavenpanda: ya
(06:14:04) anotak: how did it go
(06:14:04) heavenpanda: light paused a game v bisu
(06:14:15) heavenpanda: because the vers of the map that he practiced on
(06:14:18) heavenpanda: had a spot for a turret
(06:14:19) anotak: oh
(06:14:20) anotak: Light
(06:14:22) heavenpanda: that the 'official map' didnt have
(06:14:25) anotak: yeah i remember this
(06:14:31) anotak: and he paused yeah
(06:15:02) anotak: heavenpanda: that wouldn't occur though, with the ladder stage of TSL
(06:15:15) heavenpanda: lets hope not
(06:15:23) heavenpanda: weve already seen some
(06:15:27) heavenpanda: pretty wild accusations in tsl1
(06:15:42) anotak: well, there will always be accusations and BM, that's unavoidable
(06:15:51) anotak: especially in an online environment
(06:17:38) anotak: do you see where I'm coming from though?
(06:17:45) heavenpanda: yeah
(06:17:52) heavenpanda: itd be a cool thing
(06:18:01) heavenpanda: but its treading in untested, possibly shark-infested waters
(06:20:52) anotak: I think it could be made quite clear that if people don't play the map in the ladder stage and speak up about any sort of imbalance early on that in the end it'd be their fault for imbalance i think
(06:23:04) anotak: heavenpanda: do you mind if i take this conversation and paste it in the thread? (with the other people's random stuff edited out of course)
(06:23:30) heavenpanda: i dont mind
(06:23:36) anotak: thx
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7801 Posts
June 07 2008 11:37 GMT
#4
I would definitely support this. As long as maps are tested and added "offically" through the TSL admins it would be great to watch. I agree that sometimes watching games on the korean maps are sorta boring because we've already seen tons of battles on them by more talented korean pros.

However it can't be some stupid "we'll just pick a random map at the end and tag it onto the tournament"... it needs to be tested and through TL staff. That adds to the legitimation of the map(s)
anotak
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1537 Posts
June 07 2008 11:54 GMT
#5
On June 07 2008 20:37 Vasoline73 wrote:
I would definitely support this. As long as maps are tested and added "offically" through the TSL admins it would be great to watch. I agree that sometimes watching games on the korean maps are sorta boring because we've already seen tons of battles on them by more talented korean pros.

However it can't be some stupid "we'll just pick a random map at the end and tag it onto the tournament"... it needs to be tested and through TL staff. That adds to the legitimation of the map(s)

Yeah, definitely.
I had the idea just now that perhaps some preexisting foreigner maps that were relatively popular for foreigner maps (approximately meaning they got about 10 downloads instead of 5) should be tested more thoroughly as well and considered/modified.

I think a good process would go something like this:
1) brainstorming, map ideas thrown around within mapmaking team
2) some prototyping, sketches, internal testing of map ideas
3) short questions with TSL and ICCUP admins in what they'd like, and TSL1 ro32 players in what they would like to see in a map
4) several maps get put together in a very sketchy form, are immediately given to internal testing team for feedback
5) several ideas get cut
6) repeat 4 and 5 a few times
7) should be about 4-5 ideas at this point available, testing with internal teams, shown to TSL and ICCUP admins, they may or may not choose to cut some of these ideas.
8) showing remaining maps to TSL ro48 players, get feedback and further balance testing, testing should be LISTENED to
9) cut 1-2 maps. modify remaining maps as TSL ro48 players suggest, further testing with internal team.
10) show to admins and players again, possibly hold a poll with TSL ro48 players "Which map do you want to cut/get rid of".
11) 2-3 maps remaining. Have mapmaking team decide to cut a map.
12) 1-2 maps are released preferably 2 weeks or more before TSL2 ladder stage. public testing can begin, and then in TSL ladder stage hundreds of games will be played on the maps. statistics can be gathered as well as complaints. At ro48 time, if needed TSL2 ro48 can vote to cut one or BOTH maps if they so want, along with consensus with TL admins.

At this point any failure of balance with the map would partially exist with the players I'd say.
I don't know what kind of testing the OGN and MBC teams do but it must be pretty shitty for gems like Demon's Forest and Katrina to get through to be honest.
Spenguin
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Australia3316 Posts
June 07 2008 11:55 GMT
#6
Faoi gogogogo!! I also want a different map mix up if the TSL just had current Korean maps it would be boring already seeing as how we've already seen them being played on.
< TeamLiquid CJ Entusman #46 > I came for the Brood War, I stayed for the people.
BlackStar
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Netherlands3029 Posts
June 07 2008 11:56 GMT
#7
Can't see this happening.

There is no reason to think that foreigner maps would be as good as Korean ones. Also, the players in the TSL will need to learn many more maps.

Also, they need a team of players to really test the maps.

There is not much space for foreign maps.
anotak
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1537 Posts
June 07 2008 12:07 GMT
#8
On June 07 2008 20:56 BlackStar wrote:
Can't see this happening.

There is no reason to think that foreigner maps would be as good as Korean ones. Also, the players in the TSL will need to learn many more maps.

Also, they need a team of players to really test the maps.

There is not much space for foreign maps.

Why wouldn't foreigner maps be as good? Besides which, foreigner players aren't as good, it isn't stopping us from having TSL. Korean mapmakers make horrid mistakes or simply just boring and tasteless choices all the time anyway (Demon's Forest, Katrina, DMZ, etc), I doubt foreigners could fuck it up even close to than those 3, especially with the type of testing I described.

Players learning new maps was the exact reason I suggested it. Do you want to see players play the same maps over and over again?

And teams of players to test wouldn't be that hard to find. If this was implemented I'd sure as hell be up for it (I can't make maps worth a shit to be honest). As would probably many others.
[X]Ken_D
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
United States4650 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-07 12:29:25
June 07 2008 12:26 GMT
#9
Didn't Starleague use to have some foreign maps?

TSL is our league so we shouldn't have to use Korean maps all the time.
[X]Domain - I just do the website. Nothing more.
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
June 07 2008 12:27 GMT
#10
i support this!!!

good post anotak <3
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
NotSupporting
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden1998 Posts
June 07 2008 12:51 GMT
#11
I would stick with "korean" maps.
BlackStar
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Netherlands3029 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-07 12:55:59
June 07 2008 12:55 GMT
#12
On June 07 2008 21:07 anotak wrote:
Players learning new maps was the exact reason I suggested it. Do you want to see players play the same maps over and over again?


They played on new maps.

Many foreigners are casual players. They don't have time to learn 12 new maps every 3 months.
stenole
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Norway868 Posts
June 07 2008 13:32 GMT
#13
It's not that foreign map makers are worse than the korean ones. It's that the korean maps get tested out by progamers and we get to see them play out in the proleagues before they are picked. So they are infinitely better tested than maps internally tested by the TSL staff and helpers. I think also the best foreign players would prefer to play on promaps in general.
LetMeBeWithYou
Profile Joined August 2004
Canada4254 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-07 14:12:31
June 07 2008 14:11 GMT
#14
So you know you're a newb yet still made posts?

you retarded or something?
All Those beneath an angry star
thunk
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States6233 Posts
June 07 2008 14:20 GMT
#15
On June 07 2008 21:07 anotak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2008 20:56 BlackStar wrote:
Can't see this happening.

There is no reason to think that foreigner maps would be as good as Korean ones. Also, the players in the TSL will need to learn many more maps.

Also, they need a team of players to really test the maps.

There is not much space for foreign maps.

Why wouldn't foreigner maps be as good? Besides which, foreigner players aren't as good, it isn't stopping us from having TSL. Korean mapmakers make horrid mistakes or simply just boring and tasteless choices all the time anyway (Demon's Forest, Katrina, DMZ, etc), I doubt foreigners could fuck it up even close to than those 3, especially with the type of testing I described.


Everyone though Demon's forest would be badass, Katrina would be T weighted, and the rush distances too longs for DMZ. I think that if the foreign community stuck to making macro maps instead of strategic maps (like Monty Hall or Persona for instance) before moving on, it foreign intrusion on the map pool could be interesting.

One of the difficulties in balancing maps is that usually some players are better than the others. For instance, if you had a bunch of junk Protoss testing the maps, all the maps are going to be more Protoss weighted (which is what I think is going on now; they had all the maps tested and set and then the Bisu build came into effect).

At least Draco would then be required to practice a smidgen.
Every time Jung Myung Hoon builds a vulture, two probes die. || My post count was a palindrome and I was never posting again.
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7801 Posts
June 07 2008 14:34 GMT
#16
On June 07 2008 21:55 BlackStar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2008 21:07 anotak wrote:
Players learning new maps was the exact reason I suggested it. Do you want to see players play the same maps over and over again?


They played on new maps.

Many foreigners are casual players. They don't have time to learn 12 new maps every 3 months.


If your playing to win 5000 dollars then you should be playing more than casually. Some of the people in the top 48 of the TSL played hundreds of games to get there. If they know a certain map is going to be in the final TSL map pool they will practice on it or suffer not knowing the map and being at a disadvantage.

If the TSL is supposed to be a "real starleague" and not just a gimmick, I think at least ONE map can be used from the foreign community.
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9616 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-06-07 14:49:10
June 07 2008 14:48 GMT
#17
stop ending your posts with "sorry im new here maybe i shouldnt be posting yet" katona edit: //anotak

and lol LetMeBeWithYou get that cock out of your mouth
RoC)Ninjah
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States238 Posts
June 07 2008 14:52 GMT
#18
I agree completely with this, I'm sick of seeing games on bluestorm, katrina, ect ect all turn out the exact same way. New maps would bring more "pizaz" back into the map pool, and it would be even more like a korean starleague, where the tournament has their own map makers and maps.
Much will win a title before his hair turns grey.
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32049 Posts
June 07 2008 14:56 GMT
#19
The best way to get something to happen is to talk to Chill. I said something to this extent to him several times, and his biggest concern was balance i think. If you can win him over, you might get something haha
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
Spenguin
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Australia3316 Posts
June 07 2008 15:14 GMT
#20
On June 07 2008 23:11 LetMeBeWithYou wrote:
So you know you're a newb yet still made posts?

you retarded or something?


Wow just wow.

Still think it's a good idea so Faoi Agogogogo
< TeamLiquid CJ Entusman #46 > I came for the Brood War, I stayed for the people.
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