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Maybe this is just fiction, but I imagined pro leagues when they started out, at first used maps that people already knew. Then they dove in and started having seasons with all original maps made for them. They took the plunge. At first they had some problems, and they still do. But they dare to do it, they got better at it, and now they have what they have today. TSL could take such a plunge. It would result in a lot of good new maps, and some bad ones, but no worse than star leagues typically go through. Or TSL could stay always in the shadows of the pro leagues, a glorified tournament of amateurs.
Leagues these days always try to introduce a couple of completely new maps along with some of the best. It would be cool if you guys tried this eventually too. But I understand if it is too soon. Right now just seeing foreigners compete at this level on these maps is actually quite new, so in a way all the maps are already kind of new.
But maybe, since that's the case, you could replace one of the "new" maps with one that is really new. It would probably work better if you used two, that way if one went bad, people could see the difference.
By the way Plexa, you said they could send you alphas of their maps and they would get feedback. How do they go about doing this?
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On August 21 2008 19:30 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Isn't 6 pm PST 3 pm EST? as in, when the tournaments start?
6pm PST is 9pm EST unfortunately.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 22 2008 00:53 LazarusSpeaks wrote:
Maybe this is just fiction, but I imagined pro leagues when they started out, at first used maps that people already knew. Then they dove in and started having seasons with all original maps made for them. They took the plunge. At first they had some problems, and they still do. But they dare to do it, they got better at it, and now they have what they have today. TSL could take such a plunge. It would result in a lot of good new maps, and some bad ones, but no worse than star leagues typically go through. Or TSL could stay always in the shadows of the pro leagues, a glorified tournament of amateurs. Somewhat true, the original tournaments used the ladder maps from the blizzard map pack which were, i guess, considered the standard maps of the day. Despite that the maps were only ~year old. But im 80% sure the first OSL had entirely original maps but i could be wrong. But i dont think the situation is entirely analogous since there are standardized tournaments with set maps already in use which most other tournaments emulate to raise participation. TSL could do a break away but there's a number of flow on effects from this move which have been discuss already (or at least i presume so)
Leagues these days always try to introduce a couple of completely new maps along with some of the best. It would be cool if you guys tried this eventually too. But I understand if it is too soon. Right now just seeing foreigners compete at this level on these maps is actually quite new, so in a way all the maps are already kind of new. If we are talking foreign tournaments then i have no idea. If we are talking Korean they simply have an evolution of the map pool from season to season keeping some, dropping others based on performance, game quality and balance obviously. The initial map pool was picked based on your reasoning there - theyre new korean maps so people won't be too scared to practice them but at the same time they will be fresh games because there had only been 2~4 games played on each (bar zodiac)
By the way Plexa, you said they could send you alphas of their maps and they would get feedback. How do they go about doing this? You said it right there, send it to me and ill look over it... obviously the level of feedback depends on how good i think the map is or how good it potentially is.
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What about map betas? Such as the maps used in the tournaments and present in this thread also? Could you give feedback on each of those maps as well?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
The list of maps you've posted a few times around the site?
I've always liked sound barrier, but i think you can understand why it would never be used as the first foreign map because it is a concept map and an island map to boot. For latter events it would have been considered, but not the first if you understand what i mean.
Conceptually, i think voices is the soundest choice for a map. There may be issues with balance which can be ironed out, and the centered is very reminiscent of othello so may have a conflicting play style - but i think the expansions make the map play slightly differently.
I dont think spinal valley adds anything to any given map pool, and has dubious balance imo, particularly TvP (based on the concept of the map). Really theres nothing wrong with it apart from the balance qualms but i just dont think it adds to a map pool.
Space is a huge issue on korhal pride. I think most people have recognized that. Thus i don't think it would be a very good map for a tournament like this.
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Sound Barrier is hardly an island map. In the newest versions I copied the egg/mineral thing from Plasma and used it in the very center, so that you can scout like normal. But, even without this the map was barely an island map, as every single build order was still possible, 2gate, 9pool, etc, because the smaller neutrals break down pretty easily. In the earlier version the map was very strategically interesting in that you had to carefully decide whether to FE or play some more aggressive build, more so than on a normal map since scouting was more difficult than usual (but still possible with depot/pylon hop). Still, the map is incredibly strategically oriented, as you must carefully decide when and where to break down the neutrals. Also, nearly all the bases are easily harassble, encouraging a more aggressive play while still allowing for normal macro builds. While it may be a little slower than other maps, I think the huge strategical diversity here with basically any kind of opening and build viable would fit the mappool very nicely. It's kind of a tactical map, with both macrotastic and micro oriented styles supported, ensuring any player can be comfortable here.
Voices IV is definitely a solid map, but the really only special thing about the map is the min only double entrance thing, but the mineral block had to be made 48 minerals else zvt would be incredibly difficult. While the double path can still be useful and interesting depending on the situation and scenario, it basically in my eyes has been nerfed, making the map barely different from any other map. Gameplay will be entirely normal on it for sure, but overall strategically I don't believe there is a lot there. Alternatively, that might make it a good choice for such a tournament because it's like a different experience of familiar themes, making it still different but comfortable.
Spinel Valley III I really like. While I agree balance is uncertain for sure, I have a feeling that if players adapt correctly to the map balance shouldn't be much of a problem if at all. It offers a very othello-esque theme in my opinion, in having easy to take but even easier to harass expos. Every single expo past the nat is easily harassable, while still being easy to take for being fairly close to one-another. The map has many more paths than Othello does however, helping the mobile races a lot whereas the map might fuck them in the ass otherwise. It being pretty easy to drop the mains basically makes turtling not an option. I think this map more than the others favours a very aggressive and exciting gameplay, which would in my opinion complement any other map choices in the mappool very well, ensuring a very aggressive gameplay which ought to entertain an audience. July himself would probably orgasm instantly if he saw this map.
Whilte Korhal Pride definitely is a far more macro oriented map, it still leaves a lot of room for players to play with any style they're comfortable with, and literally with that abyss of a middle haha. The map does favour more of a macro approach than an aggressive approach, but there is still plenty of strategical room for creative tactics, with more drop oriented forms of harass than anything else. The middle is a wasteland for sure, but it definitely allows players to maneuver a lot, making army positioning a more critical-so aspect than usual, in my opinion. Of the maps in the tourney, this map has actually had the fewest amounts of complaints or things which needed to be modified. It has played very solidy so far, and while I doubt it'd be the most exciting map, it could complement a mappool of more micro-based maps well with its big macro direction. And if by "space" you mean main building space, I have not noticed that it is actually too little, it just requires a slightly different building layout approach, but many maps these days do, so that shouldn't be anything too unfamiliar.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
None of them are bad maps per say, but until we able able to get a more concrete idea of how the next map pool will shape up feedback given can only really be generalizations. If you follow what i mean.
I'm im a difficult position due to the divide on the staff about this issue and the fact that we haven't discussed maps at all yet.
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Yeah I understand. Hey Plexa, I wouldn't mind if you let me have a more useful and direct position and stance in the TSL map commity thing. Last time I was just on the side-lines rooting, but I think I could be helpful if you gave me the chance, if nothing else than to write long and hopefully convincing paragraphs; I'd like though to have more of a position where I can be directly involved, if that's possible. Even if just means being a messenger boy, or a herald or surveyer etc, if there's a chance I could be directly involved and be helpful, just let me know.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Im sure we'll be talking to a lot more people this time around because this time we're not keeping it secretive 
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=76865
They're long, but I reccomend you read the two interviews in this thread. The first one can be found in the "after first tourney" spoiler and the second one after "after third tourney". Both are long, but should be easy reads despite that. They give player impressions of the maps, the first one includes feedback from the winner, mTw.AMD-Infernal, formerly ToT)Infernal(.
The map used in the tournament that we didn't talk about above, Morrow's (4)Dread Core 1.1, I played several times today. It's pretty simple/basic, but it feels like its own map when you play it, not a clone of anything, and all-over it's really comfortable. It's a very basic/standard map, but it plays very well. It's less weird than Voices IV and less macro-whorish than Korhal. There are some decent replays of it at broodwarmaps.net in its thread. I haven't noticed any issues in this current version.
Edit: Why was LazarusSpeaks banned? 
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On August 23 2008 13:33 Nightmarjoo wrote:Edit: Why was LazarusSpeaks banned?
He was not helping our case at all, we're much better off without him.
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lol he made some good points some of which I agree with but would never say out loud 
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Anyway, i think this thread has run its course and it's time to kill it...
If you're happy with it, nightmarjoo, that is
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lol I'm done I guess, only been responding to what other people been saying, and they stopped saying stuff. You can close it if you want, though I don't see a need to close it when you could just leave it here lol.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
ok ill leave it open, but if anyone from the map making community want to talk about something i strongly suggest you pm me rather than use the thread.
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i dont like new maps. old maps dont make the game boring as far as im concerned.
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Python era was greatest. When Wuthering Heights, Othello, Andromeda came this was not that bad (but still I did not liked some cliffs, gay neutral buildings etc.) but with Plasma etc. I want to play oldschool again!!!1
Still - I think that foreigners doing map for TSL2 is really good thing but these maps must be tested and not be so gay like for example Plasma.
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On October 14 2008 02:23 NergalSC wrote:Python era was greatest. When Wuthering Heights, Othello, Andromeda came this was not that bad (but still I did not liked some cliffs, gay neutral buildings etc.) but with Plasma etc. I want to play oldschool again!!!1 Still - I think that foreigners doing map for TSL2 is really good thing but these maps must be tested and not be so gay like for example Plasma.
'
agreed, alot of the new maps are so crazy. But well. Just pick maps as in TSL 1. decent maps
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On October 14 2008 02:23 NergalSC wrote:Python era was greatest. When Wuthering Heights, Othello, Andromeda came this was not that bad (but still I did not liked some cliffs, gay neutral buildings etc.) but with Plasma etc. I want to play oldschool again!!!1 Still - I think that foreigners doing map for TSL2 is really good thing but these maps must be tested and not be so gay like for example Plasma.
python is oldschool? right...
I like those new maps much more than python because on python, strategy itself was practically not existent, all you could do is macro micro and do variations of few BOs
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EPT
