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On August 09 2008 11:10 MorroW[MB] wrote:
i dont think khoral pride or spinel valley are balanced enough.
dread core, voices seems fairly enough balanced.
moon tear and sound barrier are very interesting looking but it is very hard to judge its balancing. from the looks of moon tear i think it would favour terran.
Yeah basically. I personally think Sound Barrier will turn out alright in the end. Moon Tear is just... too hard to say. I like Spinel Valley 3.0, but tvp dangerously needs competent testing. Mine and Crackling's tvp/pvt is not quite good enough to say anything reasonable about the map 
I like Dread Core, but I wish you'd spice it up more 
Korhal I like because of the weird main/nat/min-only setup thing, but the 3rd gas might be too close, so there's just too many expos so close, with a wasteland of a middle.
On August 09 2008 13:24 Kennigit wrote:
Nightmarjoo i have to say im pleasantly surprised and already heard some positive reviews from ppl i trust. Particularly voices seemed to get the most positive feed back. We will try get some input from top foreigners to see their input and see if we can develop this fully.
Thank you, really.
Voices and Dread Core are probably the most stable maps, but also the least interesting. Atleast, I think they need the least amount of testing. Spinel3 needs tvp testing badly. Broodwarmaps.net has no decent protosses. Sound Barrier is very interesting, there's so much there strategically that I don't even know what lots of testing can show. Korhal lacks a lot of testing overall, but at the worst should play "ok" I'd think. MoonTear2 I think is unfinishable, as Testbug is leaving for 6 months on the 11th, and I don't think I can work on the map, I don't have the patience the map needs, the tile editing alone is just ridiculous.
For testing, I don't have a lot of connections but I can try to pull as many strings as possible and mobilize as many players as possible.
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Nightmarjoo, get the testing tourneys started ASAP, seriously, just a few games on these maps would help a lot getting the ideas of what's going on
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On August 09 2008 13:59 Nightmarjoo wrote:
For testing, I don't have a lot of connections but I can try to pull as many strings as possible and mobilize as many players as possible.
Yeah don't worry about that part :p
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On August 09 2008 17:42 anotak wrote:
get the testing tourneys started ASAP
maps are just "not ready" even for testing.
and i can only wrok until 11th. after that i'll leave
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Anotok, we're perfectionists, there's lots of stupid little things which would annoy the mappers in the maps that we're focusing on atm.
On August 09 2008 23:15 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2008 13:59 Nightmarjoo wrote:
For testing, I don't have a lot of connections but I can try to pull as many strings as possible and mobilize as many players as possible. Yeah don't worry about that part :p
Cool
On August 09 2008 23:05 MorroW[MB] wrote:this is another map from me i like  + Show Spoiler +
I think the middle is too tight in this one. You could move the mains and nats towards the edge a bit more, move 12/6 towards the edge more, creating a little more room, but even then I think it's just too small. Maybe move 3/9 towards the edges too? =/
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 09 2008 03:44 NastyMarine wrote:
Nothing new is being discussed because we havent heard from the people who matter the most feedback wise. I dont truly believe you gave the players the right impression. 1.5/5 rating for what exactly? A general idea of using foriegn maps? A list of specific maps? Probably not. The question was posed as "Would you support the inclusion of a foreign map in the TSL?" The majority of reasons cited had nothing to do with balance rather the difficult in practice and the question of "why do i want to practice this map which isn't going to be used elsewhere?" kind of mentality. On the whole selfish reasons for each player, which is understandable. Keep in mind that these players tended to vote against a more WCG oriented map pool as well for other selfish reasons.
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Plexa plenty new is being discussed here, particularly your claim that your data is conclusive in this matter.
When you ask people to mark a number from 1 to 5 in response to "Would you support the inclusion of a foreign map in the TSL?" you are gaining ambiguous information from each respondent and then averaging together those ambiguous answers to tell us "the average was 1.5."
Assumption: 48 players responded (if not, our simulations where we assume this yield relevant talking points anyways--also assumed).
The 1.5 average could mean that 24 players marked 2, and 24 marked 1. You are then assuming that when they mark 1, they mean they are absolutely as opposed as possible to there being foreign maps in TSL. They may actually mean this. They could mean any number of things, for instance, that they simply don't care about supporting anything. Or that they don't support any foreign maps that they can imagine, or know about (but maybe they've never seen the best foreign maps or the best possible foreign maps). Maybe they think you mean taking a map because it's foreign, as opposed to excluding one because it's foreign. You are making similar, and even less plausible assumptions about what all those people who marked 2 instead of 1. Surely in this hypothetical at least some of the people who chose to mark 1 higher than the lowest meant something relatively positive by it, and there's 24 of them, so that means some of them might actually be more willing than you are letting on. You can't exactly say there's no support for foreign maps. And in any other case there are (gasp) people who marked 3, 4, or even 5.
I could elaborate for pedagogical effect but I only am concerned with leaving my mark.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Dude trust me....every foreigner i talked to about this (at least 20) said "OMG NO DONT FUCKING DO IT DONT INCLUDE FORIEGN MAPS". The survey's also had comment sections beside the 1-5 rating and i would say that 90% of the feedback oppossed the inclusion. There weren't any 5s.
That being said, we hold the final call and the looks of the maps nightmarefaoijoo posted definitely are alot of points towards to map making community - i would like to see it successful and included.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Like kennigit said, there were only two respondents that indicated that the would support foreign map inclusion (and those respondents aren't surprising at all ) both indicated 4. One of those specified that as long as the maps were balanced that he had no issues. However they were vastly outnumbered by the rest of the respondents.
As the staff know, I'm one of the biggest proponents for the foreign map scene in the TSL but part of creating a successful tournament is create a successful atmosphere which keeps the players happy while maintaining a competitive atmosphere. Including foreign maps is something that the vast majority do not want. There are workarounds to make foreign maps more a part of the community but that requires co-operation across every BW league. Sadly, at this stage we don't have a glory map to propose with nor the contacts yet. The latter we can solve ourselves really easily, the former is something you guys must do.
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I don't think you'll have a glory map unless you run a process yourselves like other leagues. They have been making little maps at their little site, like, forever.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On August 13 2008 00:20 LazarusSpeaks wrote:
I don't think you'll have a glory map unless you run a process yourselves like other leagues. They have been making little maps at their little site, like, forever.
??? What site?
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
i mean wcg maps ... there were like what 3 wcg only maps for the last 2-3 years? PA, Gaia, and that shit map that looked like Arcadia II. Players practiced these maps extensively on ladders and they were basically only going to be used for WCG (and if, IFFFF other events chose to use them). So maps that were "one event only", were being practiced on by a slew of players despite the koreans not wanting to play on them (which was alreayd being heard at the time so).
idk when the need arises, all else goes out the window.
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AZALEA IS NOT A SHIT MAP T_T
I have never lost a zvp on it in my entire life, it used to be my insurance map for any bo3 lol.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 13 2008 00:20 LazarusSpeaks wrote:
I don't think you'll have a glory map unless you run a process yourselves like other leagues. They have been making little maps at their little site, like, forever. When we discuss TSL2 at detail we will go to nightmarjoo and say "impress us". We'll get some maps and debate them around, as we did last season, and we will pick the best 4 maps for the league.
On August 13 2008 06:15 thedeadhaji wrote:
i mean wcg maps ... there were like what 3 wcg only maps for the last 2-3 years? PA, Gaia, and that shit map that looked like Arcadia II. Players practiced these maps extensively on ladders and they were basically only going to be used for WCG (and if, IFFFF other events chose to use them). So maps that were "one event only", were being practiced on by a slew of players despite the koreans not wanting to play on them (which was alreayd being heard at the time so).
idk when the need arises, all else goes out the window. That being said, haji, the maps were made by mapdori.com . The only way a map would get played that extensively is if the qualification round was much longer (thinking TSL qualifiers stage not ladder) or if we kept the same map across 3+ seasons
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I don't really care which 4 maps you guys use. I just think it will be great for you to continue to make your tournament unique by mixing in maps that are perfect and interesting for the unique player pool, whether they are particular current pro maps, past maps, or new ones by koreans or foreigners.
But I reiterate that you should do more than go to the foreigner leader and say "impress us." You should pick the maps yourselves and say "this map needs X Y Z to even have a shot. Show us you can do that." That would be more like other star leagues IMO. You can demand they improve any map that you are tempted to use but wish it had X Y Z, whether it's of foreign origin or not.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
you do realize that OGN go to mapdori (99% sure they still use mapdori) and get them to show them their top 5~ maps and from there they decide on which of those they want to use in their upcoming league right? Likewise, MBC goto intothemap and get maps from them!
uhjoo: Of course ^^ The next questions are related to pro gaming in general. Of all the maps you design, what percent are actually used in the pro leagues?
Rose.of.Dream: About half and half. I don�t make many maps. Before the start of each league, all the related parties have a meeting and in this meeting they select from among the samples I put out in front of them.
uhjoo: Ah, I see.
Rose.of.Dream: But there aren�t that many sample maps to begin with. In the last meeting, 5 maps were considered. Among these, 2 were used, 1 was chosen for team play, and 2 aren�t being used currently.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=21037
With that being said the next map pool will contain maps which encourage a diverse set of playstyles while (hopefully) retaining balance and creativity. It's a tall order, but I think there are enough current maps to chose from to get this.
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You saying the leagues don't ask them to fix certain problems they see on a map? I think leagues used to do this. Maybe it was better when they did.
At any rate, TSL does not have all of the advantages of an established korean pro league. It may have to go above and beyond the call of duty to get the job done. One nice goal to shoot for, we all agree, is to have its best map be an original one. This would not only ensure fresh and better games for the spectators and players, but provide prestige to the TSL brand and potentially introduce itself as a source of new maps that may go on to be used at a future WCG or korean league. Now, if TSL has to step in to give this a better chance of it happening, why wouldn't they?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
We asked Nightmarjoo to change things on Faoi prior to TSLS1 (thats why it went from V1 -> V3) so in fact we've already done your suggestion
And now we're back into a circular argument which has been spewed over the last few pages. There are pros and cons to adding foreign maps - but anything outside using this map as an integral component of every single foreign league isn't going to get it popular. When we start considering maps we'll judge each map on its merits...
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/Morphling.JPG)
