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On June 26 2008 19:46 anotak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2008 17:15 kyjori wrote:
the new map that was just posted... the spinel valley, took a look at it, actually played one game on it. boy does that map love terran and hates the other races... its fucking impossible to snag the third gas -.- and siege tanks really fuck me up on it. but that isnt the biggest problem, it is those goddamn tiny ramps that you must get through for every single goddamn part of the map. and you expect this map to be in tsl? lol hey let's take 1 map by 1 mapmaker, that's only been out for barely 19 days, is still being tested... and let's judge the entire foreigner mapmaking community based on that one map.
when did i judge all mapmakers out there? i judged this map alone; learn to fucking read so you can understand what "you expect this map to be in tsl? lol" does not mean "no foreign maps should be in tsl" fucking dumbass
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On July 01 2008 07:50 kyjori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2008 19:46 anotak wrote:On June 26 2008 17:15 kyjori wrote:
the new map that was just posted... the spinel valley, took a look at it, actually played one game on it. boy does that map love terran and hates the other races... its fucking impossible to snag the third gas -.- and siege tanks really fuck me up on it. but that isnt the biggest problem, it is those goddamn tiny ramps that you must get through for every single goddamn part of the map. and you expect this map to be in tsl? lol hey let's take 1 map by 1 mapmaker, that's only been out for barely 19 days, is still being tested... and let's judge the entire foreigner mapmaking community based on that one map. when did i judge all mapmakers out there? i judged this map alone; learn to fucking read so you can understand what "you expect this map to be in tsl? lol" does not mean "no foreign maps should be in tsl" fucking dumbass
k
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On July 01 2008 07:50 kyjori wrote:
when did i judge all mapmakers out there? i judged this map alone; learn to fucking read so you can understand what "you expect this map to be in tsl? lol" does not mean "no foreign maps should be in tsl" fucking dumbass
Calm down.
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Better than OSL/MSL??? lets not suck each other's dicks, TSL was good, but not THAT good. However, the idea of foreign map is very good, gives more validity to the TSL. but.. how many ppl have experience making maps, and how are you gonna know if its balanced? A symmetrical map does not mean a balanced map. Rmber, maps are what moves starcraft towards different builds and different directions. So i guess the question is, should the foreigns follow and try to catch up to the koreans, or do u want branch off on your own with new maps??
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On June 26 2008 17:15 kyjori wrote:
the new map that was just posted... the spinel valley, took a look at it, actually played one game on it. boy does that map love terran and hates the other races... its fucking impossible to snag the third gas -.- and siege tanks really fuck me up on it. but that isnt the biggest problem, it is those goddamn tiny ramps that you must get through for every single goddamn part of the map. and you expect this map to be in tsl? lol
there have been edits to spinel valley. check it out
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I think it would be fun if the TSL used a mixture of maps for more variation in the games but obviously only the best maps should be used. If the best maps are korean then they should be used, if a foreign map is good enough it should be used. The only thing I don't want is for TSL to be a testing place for new maps, it's up to the mappers if they want their maps included in the TSL to convince good players to test it for balance. If you have a good map and have support from good players that it's balanced and you present it to the TSL staff I'm sure they would look it over and consider it as they would any korean map.
TSL is a competition and not a testing place for new maps
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No one suggested using TSL as a testing place for new maps rofl -_-
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jeez i feel like this thread needs to be over, like the last however many posts have all been people who didn't seem to read the thread... ugh. don't want my thread to devolve into this.
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Well, I've mobilized some map making specifically with tsl2 in mind. And, as soon as we get those four maps in the thread on bwm ready I'll announce the weekly mapping tournaments. So we're in a passive mode: everything needed be said has been said, up to the mappers now to make stuff and get them tested.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
thats great to hear, keep us posted
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United States44385 Posts
I think the example of Faoi showed that it's possible to be completely gimmickless without making a unoriginal map. The central high ground dominating the map, too big to prevent mobility around the edges and flanking, but absolutely central to map control makes games on it interesting. Likewise the comparitive weakness of the 3rd to being cliffed forces players to take a gamble. By taking it they improve their position but should they ever lose control of the game they're fucked. I like that kind of thing. It forces players to make long term strategic decisions.
And yet the map is pretty standard. All the bases are the same, there are no spells or neutral buildings or blocks anywhere. The average player can adapt to play on Faoi instantly and while he may not immediately grasp the subtlety that better players will start to use he will be relatively comfortable on it.
Luna-esque, basic and yet somehow different. It's a tough order but it'd be awesome if we made the next python.
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That made me really happy.
It's hard to tell from just a few games, but I think it's possible that the middle in Faoi provides too much positive feedback. The guy who's ahead controls the middle, and whoever controls the middle is ahead. Basically, if you control the middle you win. The islands are supposed to help balance this, but I dunno if they do a good enough job or not. The map mostly is structured so that the average player can adapt, but the average player usually isn't very responsive to island play, and that's a big part of Faoi I think. The expo layout was intended to be python-esque in that players would have to choose very carefully where they expo'd, they wouldn't be given a set expo order, but I haven't noticed that players caught much onto that.
Again, the lack of adequete testing makes actual conclusions impossible though, and for something like TSL it's better to be safe than sorry.
One thing I thought about doing was inverting the map, making the mains low, the nats and min onlys high, and the middle low, almost katrina-esque. Overall the map would play the same, except that the middle wouldn't be as powerful a feature since they not only would not have the highground advantage, they would have a lowground disadvantage. I never got enough motivation to finish the map though, I figured everyone would auto-hate it anyway since it was still Faoi lol.
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i only played like 3 2v2's on it, but wasnt faoi basically 4 player longinus?
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Kind of. Low min only area with highground middle with two ramps leading from the min only areas to the middle. Except the middle is bigger and less awkwardly shaped here than Longinus, the min only areas are much smaller, your min only is cliffable from the middle, and there are two islands instead of a double gas expo per player.
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All in all I don't think it's a good idea to not go with the flow (which is using only korean maps) because it would split the international competitive scene even more. There are many people who might lose interest in leagues if they don't have the feeling they can learn from progamers. Progamers practice on certain maps and this is reason enough for us to play on them, too.
This is one reason why I never played Faoi, the other one being that - even though it might sound like I'm just biased - I think the map is too easy to learn and also uninteresting as a whole. I have the feeling that Faoi is the compressed version of Namja Iyagi or w/e it was called.
When it comes to balancing issues I would never say that Korean maps are better than foreign maps though. We've seen horribly imbalanced maps in the past korean leagues - some being removed almost instantly after being released and played in important matches, quite a shame for the progaming scene, seriously - and I'm very surprised about that, after all they've got teams to test the maps beforehand which us foreigners haven't.
I share the opinion that foreign maps should not be played in important leagues like the TSL because most of us play in their free time which usually isn't much. We should not be forced to split our attention more than neccessary and we shouldn't have to pay extra time to learn new maps. I'm not speaking for myself now, if I don't have enough free time I steal it because I love SC and the competition. I have enough time to practice so many maps which means that I'd have a clear advantage over those who don't yet I don't want that to happen.
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On July 13 2008 15:28 ForAdun wrote:
All in all I don't think it's a good idea to not go with the flow (which is using only korean maps) because it would split the international competitive scene even more. There are many people who might lose interest in leagues if they don't have the feeling they can learn from progamers. Progamers practice on certain maps and this is reason enough for us to play on them, too.
This is one reason why I never played Faoi, the other one being that - even though it might sound like I'm just biased - I think the map is too easy to learn and also uninteresting as a whole. I have the feeling that Faoi is the compressed version of Namja Iyagi or w/e it was called.
When it comes to balancing issues I would never say that Korean maps are better than foreign maps though. We've seen horribly imbalanced maps in the past korean leagues - some being removed almost instantly after being released and played in important matches, quite a shame for the progaming scene, seriously - and I'm very surprised about that, after all they've got teams to test the maps beforehand which us foreigners haven't.
I share the opinion that foreign maps should not be played in important leagues like the TSL because most of us play in their free time which usually isn't much. We should not be forced to split our attention more than neccessary and we shouldn't have to pay extra time to learn new maps. I'm not speaking for myself now, if I don't have enough free time I steal it because I love SC and the competition. I have enough time to practice so many maps which means that I'd have a clear advantage over those who don't yet I don't want that to happen.
Faoi is nothing like Namja Iyagi lol.
Why bother even playing maps other than lt then? I mean come on, why bother splitting your attention and paying extra time to learn new maps, omg! What's with all these crazy koreans, making us learn funny maps like Katrina, Colosseum, Bluestorm, let's just play Lost Temple!
I made this point earlier, but the TSL players still had to learn Othello and Wuthering Heights. These two maps are still not very popular, so they'd have had to go out of their way and make time to learn the new maps. Two whole maps! If balance and testing is put aside, and that just leaves whether or not the players can handle learning presumably a single map, we already put them up to the challenge of learning maps koreans play on. It's a different challenge of course to make them learn a map they can't play vs koreans on, ie on maps where they'd have to figure out on their own the best openings for the map and whatnot. Are our gamers so incompetent that they are unable to theorycraft and test their theories to figure out how to play the maps? Draco literally said he learned the maps by opening them up in the map editor and just looking at them, and thinking. Draco is very skilled at starcraft, but surely any gamer can do the same? Also, if the map in question is announced before/during the ladder stage, they'll have every other TSL hopeful to practice with on the map. It wouldn't be too big a deal to throw that map into the iccup pack and make it motw for the 3 weeks the ladder was open for, further encouraging the TSL hopefuls to play on it.
You're such a martyr, keeping others from having to learn new maps because you'd get an unfair advantage. I'm being rude, but come on lol. Legionnaire, Nazgul, Eriador, and other old-school gamers who gave a shot at TSL, had to learn all of the maps involved or so, right? They're inactive, no? And they all did pretty fucking well all things considered, Legionnaire even got into the top 48 on a bunch of maps he didn't know, while not having played the game in who knows how long. For 5k, it seemed like every player involved was pretty dedicated to the event, as you said, if they didn't have time for SC, they stole it and made sure they had time. If they aren't incompetent, and are dedicated, and the map is already tested and TL-approved, thrown into iccup as motw, I don't see what would stop the gamers from learning a single map. Three weeks is a lot of time, not to mention they'd know ahead of time what maps their matches were on, right? And if someone seriously can't dedicate enough time to the game to learn a single map in 3+ weeks, then why let them in? They might as well all be Testies then.
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You're right with most of that, the thing is that neither of us can speak for everyone. I'm saying a great amount of gamers would side with me while many more would side with you and all the rest has a different opinion. So I'm saying there's no ultimate solution, there will always be unhappy people. What I'm saying is that the first TSL was pretty good, people got interested in the maps, they started practicing them (they even played Troy a little bit as long as it was in the map pool). It would work exactly the same way with foreign maps, but you will annoy many gamers that way. It's inevitable either way so I'm saying keep it as it is instead of changing it because it worked well last time, stick to progamer maps.
btw if you only want 1 foreign map to be introduced to the next TSL then I might fully agree to you. I'm still unsure if I'd be very happy with that but at least I'd not say "no" to TSL because of that. So this sounds like a possible solution, the question is just what map should be used and all that.
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Yeah. Unfortunately I think far more people would be made unhappy than would be made happy by adding a map. I think the majority of people are indifferent, but that the gamers probably mostly would rather play on korean maps.
I wouldn't push to have more than one foreign map for sure. It'd be awesome enough just to have one foreign map be in such a prestegious tournament.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
"gaia meets hwarangdo"
first impression 
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