EPTMaps for TSL2 (and the foreigner map-making scene) - Page 13
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NastyMarine
United States1252 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
On July 15 2008 10:05 Plexa wrote: "gaia meets hwarangdo" first impression  yea for sure o.o | ||
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ForAdun
Germany986 Posts
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G5
United States2853 Posts
On June 08 2008 00:14 Spenguin wrote: Wow just wow. Still think it's a good idea so Faoi Agogogogo  Faoi = the shit Faoi ftw!~ | ||
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Februarys
Korea (South)259 Posts
It seems to me that his accent seems a little middle-eastern / Indian | ||
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
but seriosuly the map looks pretty cool even though its so gaia vs hwarangdo | ||
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
and visually, Flavors looks pretty bad imho, if you look at the massive sqaurey tiled copy and pasty rectangulation on that terran... ew. | ||
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll98/Tinithor_photo/OSLMap1.jpg) I would never ever suggest a map such as this to be used. So much for korean mapmakers being so great. Ugh. | ||
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1903 Posts
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djdolber
Sweden85 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3359 Posts
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LazarusSpeaks
100 Posts
Artosis raises two strong points: (1) You can't practice on them because pro koreans won't play you on them, only other TSL players. Therefore, if we are to include foreign maps we need to find an acceptable solution to this problem, providing non-TSL players of enough skill and confidence to provide confidential practice partners. It's hard to find koreans who care? Well then, throw some money at this problem. There are plenty of sub-pro koreans who we could attract in some kind of activity to remedy this issue. Have some kind of anonymous practice ladder with the foreign maps, and offer some moderate prize money that would attract a fuckton of koreans. Make sure to have korean translations of everything and hype on all their sites. Maybe call it TSL Challrenge Leagueu. (2) Only good players can point out all the imbalances with a map, not map makers. Therefore we need an extensive review and revision process, we cannot simply choose existing foreigner maps. But I would say likewise, we should not ignorantly choose pro maps either. We should review every map we use, equally. It's not like pro leagues never use bad maps. Superiorwolf is right when he says that korean pro maps aren't necessarily balanced and catered to the foreign scene. There could be maps that are good for a pro league but that our zergs simply can't compete on, for instance. We shouldn't use maps that are imbalanced for all the players involved, simply because they are balanced for top koreans. Think of this: if the 1000 best korean zerg players all died tommorow night by some miracle, the ideal map pool would change dramatically. For whatever reason, non-korean skill levels by race does not match up with pro korean skill levels by race. The way they stack up is different, and we should not ignore this. Basically even if pro koreans proved their maps were balanced, they might not be balanced for our league anyways. So we need to have independent balance review of all maps. Mortality is right in also pointing out Artosis's point: If you're going to include a foreign map you have to make sure everyone is able to practice it meaningfully. This has to be in a ladder or a series of tournaments, for a long enough time for people to play quality games on the map. Using an existing pro map that fills the need described here has an added advantage, so using a truly foreign map must be truly unique--something that no existing pro map does. Otherwise why bother? Second, Mortality reminds us of the core role of Courage. Courage maps have to be present and unchanged for this reason. However, in response we might point out that the $5000 prize may very well motivate people to play in a world seperate from the chance to play Rekrul. If one of the courage maps is blatantly imbalanced for the TSL player pool, if it leads to shitty games, should we still include it? Or are we free to make the TSL as good as possible? The money involved should provide all the incentive necessary for people to take your maps seriously. So if they are good, people will find out, and it will be cool. Why foreign maps? There are pro maps we are tired of watching games on and tired of playing games on. Let's admit this and take those out as much as we can while keeping the tournament reputable and serious. We should operate under the philosophy that having the best possible games should generate the best possible outcome. There are a number of reasons why having an original map pool may be necessary to do that. Having different maps than other leagues has a number of benefits. First, we get the possibility of new things to happen, which means more excitement for spectators and players. Conversely, less chance of stale re-plays of games we already watch all the time with just "worse mechanics." Every starleague has made a name for themself and their own character by their way of choosing maps--they keep the best, but they try to mix it up to keep the league fresh. TSL should follow this example ultimately. The main reason, though, why we need different maps is that the player pool is different. Maps that play well and are balanced for top korean pros might be boring or too difficult for some matchups for our player pool. This isn't a down side, but an opportunity. We can play maps that they can't. A map that is bad for them might be good for us. We can even have attractive, fresh, new games and types of maps that are unthinkable for them. So all we need to do is figure this out. I suggest we take what appear to be the best maps but then have them edited to meet the demands of an entire panel of good players and other official critics. Don't just wait for the foreign map community to make something good. Pick something yourselves, and demand that they do what is necessary for it. This is the most direct way to meet the needs described above; TSL will be better for it. And of course we will find that many of the top korean maps have a place in the league. And of course maybe the "new maps" we want to use might also be from korea but not currently in use or not ever in use. We could even demand that our own editors edit an existing map specifically for the league. The way we used Wuthering Heights and Othello is an excellent sample of this line of thought--we can be unique simply by how we choose to use existing maps--we can also fix problems that we find with them, regardless of whether pro leagues have the same problem or interest in such maps. We don't need whole new maps, we could make a TSL version of any map with small twists or improvements. Or use former pro maps that have been revised as needed. TSL is in position to legitimize versions of maps. By TSL using a new edit of (whatever--Lost Temple for instance), it will become the de facto standard. We don't need to include even every good pro map in TSL. You are your own league now, you can do what you want. Listen to what is legitimate for the top players, and if they agree, you can't go wrong. If they want to play on TSL Plains To Hill 2008, then what do you have to lose? Why not commit to a process like this of putting together a foreign map pool, holding test tournaments on these maps yourselves, and then, if any work out, work them into TSL? If you want to make the best possible TSL these steps should be ones you jump on, not wait for others to make. Obviously existing maps are going to have too many problems when you show them to top players--you need to pick maps that have potential, subject them to intense scrutiny and make the necessary changes. Give several map makers the chance to meet your demands--you have to make your demands first. Tell them what needs to be done to their map, and if any of them have something good in time, then you can use it. So when a map doesn't make the cut, don't stop there--tell them why it doesn't make the cut, give them a chance to improve. Ask yourself if it's a map worth improving--if you wish it would make the cut, or if you don't care. There should be foriegn maps out there that we are wishing for. Get out there and demand that they be improved. This "it's not our job to test your map" misses the point. If you agree it would be nice to have a foreign map, you can meet them half way by picking the ones with the most potential and telling the authors (or anyone else) what changes need to be made. Other leagues have a big hand in their map process. Maps are made for them, and changes are made for them. TSL should do no less. This whole "do something yourself" and "make your own maps" attitude is very disappointing. When a map shows merit it shouldn't be about dismissing it or keeping it, but about opening a dialogue and seeing if they can make the map as good as possible, to improve the map to meet the demands of the most critical eyes of better players. Having an internal debate doesn't do that. Maps mentioned in this thread: Spinel Valley Faoi Waiting To Panic Memory Cell The Artist Nazca Nightlight korhal pride Suggest more! Pro maps people might want excluded (from this thread): bluestorm katrina troy demon's forest dmz Suggest more! | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
1.5/5 -> thats a very small mark seeing as 1 is the lowest hence there is no support from the competitive community for such a measure | ||
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LazarusSpeaks
100 Posts
They could be saying that they don't like existing foreign maps. That doesn't mean there is no support from them to take a second and criticize / make demands on map canidates selected by TL staff. This thread is too large and broad though. I support closing it as long as you don't use this as grounds to close similar topics in the future. Ask them all "would you be willing to review a couple of maps selected by TSL staff and tell us what needs to change with them?" If you get enough "yes" then there is indeed support for this. Another better question would be "would a good, solid, foreign map be an improvement for TSL, if we were to get one made?" Besides you only need 3-4 people with sufficient interest to participate. You don't need even 10% of the 48 and they don't have to like it per se, just care enough to throw a few minutes at it at the request of their beloved TSL. Far from impossible. | ||
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NastyMarine
United States1252 Posts
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NastyMarine
United States1252 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3359 Posts
I didn't want to post any kind of list with the assumption that we had more time to work on these maps (all are under construction), but it appears we're up against the wall, so here goes nothing: ![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(4)Dread%20Core%20(p).JPG) Dread Core by MorroW[MB] ![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/voices%20iv.jpg) Voices IV by Testbug, Concept by Tktkvroom aka Chopper]i[, and older versions of this map by Nb.Crackling ![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/moon%20tear%20II.jpg) Moon Tear II by Testbug ![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(2)Sound%20Barrier%201.2.jpg) Sound Barrier 1.2 by Flothefreak, modified by Nightmarjoo, original concept by RaDiX ![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(4)korhal%20pride1.2(n).jpg) Korhal Pride 1.2 by NastyMarine ![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/valley%20iii.jpg) Spinel Valley III by Testbug, concept by Spinesheath, older versions by NastyMarine And possibly others. Feel free to go to Broodwarmaps.net, find a map you think is worth working on, and we'll what we can do. | ||
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RaDiX
Finland67 Posts
. Moon Tear looks great, but I'm a bit worried about zerg surviving in it. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
dread core, voices seems fairly enough balanced. moon tear and sound barrier are very interesting looking but it is very hard to judge its balancing. from the looks of moon tear i think it would favour terran. | ||
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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