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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 13 2008 06:29 Chill wrote: QFTI think the players will play the maps if they are worthy of high-level, competitive play. I haven't seen a map like this in a long time, at least on TL. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32277 Posts
On June 13 2008 09:17 Ryot wrote: I say give the TSL a few seasons, see how things go, and if the top players were to support it, then start testing some foreign maps. I don't see the need to jump into something potentially risky to the tournament's credibility so soon. Even though a lot of testing can be done, it's just not as reliable as the Korean standard (and as the OP noted, even they can turn out poor quality maps sometimes). But at the very least, I would like to see a better variety of tile sets for maps. IMO, Having every map blue/twilight (or whatever it's called) is a bit annoying from a spectator's point of view. We had: Blue storm, Othello, Wuthering Heights, and just Zodiac as the sole non-twilight map. I think having a space map, a twilight map, a desert map, and a forest map would be a good mix. Good, balanced maps of all tile sets are definitely available, and the variety should make the spectator happy. For example, my current favorite mix of maps to see would be Colosseum, Andromeda, Othello, and one more. Just my two cents on the maps. Overall I was quite pleased to see new maps from PL instead of older maps. Good post, i agree. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On June 08 2008 01:02 Artosis wrote: theres a lot of problems with foreigner made maps. 1) you cant practice them: - koreans wont play you on them - if you are in TSL and need to practice them then you are too good to practice vs foreigners who are not in the TSL also The thread should have stopped here. Nice idea, but wouldn't work in practice. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
I'm sure TL.net staff has enough competent people to judge maps on rather they're balanced or not. Just as competent as Kespa's. All submitted maps could go through review by specific TL staff to get a "TL approved map" label to it. Before they even get a chance to get played officially. I have enough trust in TL staff that any maps they approve would be Kespa+ quality. No bad maps would pass and get to be played in the TSL. If the community can't make any maps that would get approved by TL staff, then I'm sure map-makers would just adapt to TL's standards after a couple of thumbs downs. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
Make a TL.net 4fun tournament. No money prize, nothing serious. Just for laughs. But use foreign maps only. We go through a series of testing. We set some very solid rules on how maps are judged and approved. Then we pick a couple and make a TSL-like 4fun tournament on those maps. If the end result is some ridiculously imbalanced match-ups, joke cheese builds and weirdo non-standard gameplay, then we forget about it. But if after the tournament, players are like "yea wasn't that bad". Then we consider it more seriously  What do you think? | ||
Chill
Calgary25989 Posts
On June 13 2008 18:14 VIB wrote: If it's the people who chooses which korean maps to use in TSL, are the same people who choose which foreign maps to use in TSL2. Then the maps will be about as balanced. Just use the same criteria, judge the foreign maps and test them like you would with korean maps. I'm pretty sure "it's korean" was not the only criteria to choose TSL1 maps. They thought they were balanced for some reason and TSL2 maps will be balanced for the same reason regardless who created them. If all foreign maps looks imba, then don't use them. But I vote give them a try. We did that in TSL1. None of them made the cut. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25989 Posts
On June 13 2008 18:23 VIB wrote: Hey, even better idea. Why don't you give this idea a chance even before TSL2? Make a TL.net 4fun tournament. No money prize, nothing serious. Just for laughs. But use foreign maps only. We go through a series of testing. We set some very solid rules on how maps are judged and approved. Then we pick a couple and make a TSL-like 4fun tournament on those maps. If the end result is some ridiculously imbalanced match-ups, joke cheese builds and weirdo non-standard gameplay, then we forget about it. But if after the tournament, players are like "yea wasn't that bad". Then we consider it more seriously What do you think? The thing you're not realizing is there are levels of balance. The same map can be balanced at the D- level, slightly imbalanced for one race at the A- level, and completely imbalanced for another race at the progamer level. So getting some D-/D TL players to play in a foreigner tournament proves nothing. In the end, you can try hard to determine balance by studying a map, but it will never be 100%. There will always be some dominant strategies that slip by, which is what we have to be very worried about. With Korean maps, you already have a safety net, a team of professional gamers have already assured you there is no dominant strategy. | ||
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ChaoSbringer
Australia1382 Posts
On June 13 2008 09:17 Ryot wrote:But at the very least, I would like to see a better variety of tile sets for maps. IMO, Having every map blue/twilight (or whatever it's called) is a bit annoying from a spectator's point of view. Not all tilesets are created equally, Twilight is the tileset that has the most decoration and function (ramps, low, mid, high ground etc). You know how Blue Storm has that double sloaping effect? Thats because it has the assets which other maps don't have.It's also why there are very few ice and ash world maps. With the only 2 notable ones being Tau Cross and Reqium respectively. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 13 2008 22:52 ChaoSbringer wrote: Generally speaking, yes although Jungle has the same capacity for decoration.. However it seems that Proleague has boycotted cool jungle maps and thus we were forced to pick the two maps which seemed the most balanced from the lot - wuthering and othelloNot all tilesets are created equally, Twilight is the tileset that has the most decoration and function (ramps, low, mid, high ground etc). You know how Blue Storm has that double sloaping effect? Thats because it has the assets which other maps don't have. It's also why there are very few ice and ash world maps. With the only 2 notable ones being Tau Cross and Reqium respectively. | ||
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GunsofthePatriots
South Africa991 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/map_thumbnails/(2)whoosh(n).jpg) This map is beautiful | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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Mx.DeeP
China25 Posts
Also, in terms of map testing, it takes time and effort on a level most people don't seem to realize. Getting a couple of C, or even B, level iccup players to play a few dozen games on it is not even close to enough. You would need A level players to play thousands of games, testing every possibility and running through macro builds, cheese builds, and every other build you can think of over and over. Does the foreigner community really have those resources? Even if you were to pay a top foreigner clan like MYM to do this, it still wouldn't be enough, none of us have all day to play starcraft like the Korean pros do. In terms of mapmaking, I don't think even top foreigner players really know the ins and outs of exactly what makes a map balanced or imbalanced. Of course, the good players have a pretty solid idea, but going back and forth between mapmakers and top players alone would be hard enough, even if you don't count the testing. Why go through all this, when you already have maps that have passed the test? Of course, the Korean maps aren't perfect, but they have sort of a minimum quality assurance that you wouldn't get with foreigner maps. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On June 14 2008 03:21 Mx.DeeP wrote: Out of all the comments here, only 2 are from people who made it reasonably far in TSL1, and both Nony and Artosis pretty much just shot the idea down. Until you can convince the people who will actually need to practice these maps if it comes up, it's not going to get anywhere. If you're not a top foreigner player, it might not seem like a big deal if you can't play Koreans, but it's a HUGE deal. The top guys play hundreds of games to practice and if you take away Koreans, the number of people you can practice with goes down dramatically, especially since there's the chance you'll face a given foreigner player in the tournament itself, making you less likely to practice with him. Also, in terms of map testing, it takes time and effort on a level most people don't seem to realize. Getting a couple of C, or even B, level iccup players to play a few dozen games on it is not even close to enough. You would need A level players to play thousands of games, testing every possibility and running through macro builds, cheese builds, and every other build you can think of over and over. Does the foreigner community really have those resources? Even if you were to pay a top foreigner clan like MYM to do this, it still wouldn't be enough, none of us have all day to play starcraft like the Korean pros do. In terms of mapmaking, I don't think even top foreigner players really know the ins and outs of exactly what makes a map balanced or imbalanced. Of course, the good players have a pretty solid idea, but going back and forth between mapmakers and top players alone would be hard enough, even if you don't count the testing. Why go through all this, when you already have maps that have passed the test? Of course, the Korean maps aren't perfect, but they have sort of a minimum quality assurance that you wouldn't get with foreigner maps. What I dislike about what they're saying, is that it somehow applies only to foreign-made maps, and not brand new korean they don't know (Othello, Wuthering Heights). Sure, you can perhaps feel safer knowing koreans already mass-tested the map, but that doesn't ensure balance at all, because the maps are selected often to offset the previous season's imbalances (like python being made while savior was raping everyone and their mothers, or protoss sucking ass and then katrina and baekmoji being put in). Katrina is 73% p>t, Andromeda is 72% p>t, I somehow doubt the korean mappers are stupid enough to make a map that imbalanced on accident. Foreigners are atleast trying to make balanced maps, not to rig the proleague results based on what kespa wants. My point is, the korean maps are by no means balanced, despite having mass-testing, so why be afraid of imbalances in foreign maps if you accept their imbalances? You already are fine watching and playing games on imbalanced maps, but the fact that an imbalanced map might be made by a foreigner is just unacceptable? Mondragon, the zvp foreign master said, zvp on Wuthering Heights was ridiculously hard. Look at TSL, the RO8 had what, 6 protoss, 1 zerg and 1 terran, and of those 3 protoss and 1 terran advanced to the RO4? Wouldn't you expect there to be more terran players and zerg players on a balanced mappool? Or are you guys all protoss and don't care? I'm not blaming the results of TSL on the mappool, and I think the maps chosen were in fact that best, but I'm just saying you guys are putting down the idea of foreign maps due to practice time and imbalances, and the TSL1 players already had to work through that, with two new and not yet popular maps to have to learn, with a fairly statistically protoss favouring mappool, so we've already got down 2 of the problems involved. That just leaves, construction of the map itself. For 5k players WILL learn a new map, they did it this TSL, they'll do it again. I think the way construction would work, if it happened, is that you'd get a couple of mappers who'd make maps, they'd be looked at by other mappers, maybe we'd have a mapping team as op suggested, then we'd refine the best maps made and show TL. If the admins, players, members etc generally thought the map(s) was/were solid, then we could go work on testing. It's the summer, I'm sure some high up players can give the community a little bit of their time and help test the maps a little bit, express their concerns, have some of the things they were concerned with looked into and tested, have the map(s) edited, and do it again a couple times. Throw the map(s) into iccup and see what players think of the map. Make a money tournament with the maps in it, players won't just cheese through the maps I think if there's money involved. There's lots of ways to get testing done in the maps, even without a proteam. No maps are perfectly balanced, and even the most balanced can easily become imbalanced by a change in style or gameplay, so to ask for foreigners to make a perfectly balanced map is just absurd, and if you're not looking for a perfectly balanced map, then we can get you a great, solid map no problem. You act like the old foreign maps were any different from the current foreign maps. They had if anything, less testing and less gameplay/balance consideration than maps do now, but you keep glorifying the "old foreign maps", probably because you don't rememeber them or never really played them lol. We can make maps better now than we ever could in the past, so if you've ever liked our maps, you'll still like them now. Can we make TSL quality maps? imo yes, but I think only time and some motivation will tell. | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On June 13 2008 18:23 VIB wrote: Hey, even better idea. Why don't you give this idea a chance even before TSL2? Make a TL.net 4fun tournament. No money prize, nothing serious. Just for laughs. But use foreign maps only. We go through a series of testing. We set some very solid rules on how maps are judged and approved. Then we pick a couple and make a TSL-like 4fun tournament on those maps. If the end result is some ridiculously imbalanced match-ups, joke cheese builds and weirdo non-standard gameplay, then we forget about it. But if after the tournament, players are like "yea wasn't that bad". Then we consider it more seriously What do you think? Clan Art is taking leaps and bounds to encourage mapmaking! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=69799 We also have cookies, porn, and advance copies of the next Batman movie! Sign up now! | ||
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ScarFace
United States1175 Posts
ICCUP can always help with the testing process... | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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G5
United States2919 Posts
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
On June 14 2008 06:02 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote: Clan Art is taking leaps and bounds to encourage mapmaking! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=69799 We also have cookies, porn, and advance copies of the next Batman movie! Sign up now! no offense but the maps in that are some of the worst i've seen in the entire foreign mapmaking scene and i think that's one reason why people have been dropping out of that | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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