On June 14 2008 04:36 Nightmarjoo wrote: Ok, we'll give the map to Idra to have eSTRO play on, they don't need to practice anyway, everyone knows they can't win the proleague
On June 14 2008 03:21 Mx.DeeP wrote: Out of all the comments here, only 2 are from people who made it reasonably far in TSL1, and both Nony and Artosis pretty much just shot the idea down. Until you can convince the people who will actually need to practice these maps if it comes up, it's not going to get anywhere. If you're not a top foreigner player, it might not seem like a big deal if you can't play Koreans, but it's a HUGE deal. The top guys play hundreds of games to practice and if you take away Koreans, the number of people you can practice with goes down dramatically, especially since there's the chance you'll face a given foreigner player in the tournament itself, making you less likely to practice with him.
Also, in terms of map testing, it takes time and effort on a level most people don't seem to realize. Getting a couple of C, or even B, level iccup players to play a few dozen games on it is not even close to enough. You would need A level players to play thousands of games, testing every possibility and running through macro builds, cheese builds, and every other build you can think of over and over. Does the foreigner community really have those resources? Even if you were to pay a top foreigner clan like MYM to do this, it still wouldn't be enough, none of us have all day to play starcraft like the Korean pros do.
In terms of mapmaking, I don't think even top foreigner players really know the ins and outs of exactly what makes a map balanced or imbalanced. Of course, the good players have a pretty solid idea, but going back and forth between mapmakers and top players alone would be hard enough, even if you don't count the testing. Why go through all this, when you already have maps that have passed the test? Of course, the Korean maps aren't perfect, but they have sort of a minimum quality assurance that you wouldn't get with foreigner maps.
What I dislike about what they're saying, is that it somehow applies only to foreign-made maps, and not brand new korean they don't know (Othello, Wuthering Heights). Sure, you can perhaps feel safer knowing koreans already mass-tested the map, but that doesn't ensure balance at all, because the maps are selected often to offset the previous season's imbalances (like python being made while savior was raping everyone and their mothers, or protoss sucking ass and then katrina and baekmoji being put in). Katrina is 73% p>t, Andromeda is 72% p>t, I somehow doubt the korean mappers are stupid enough to make a map that imbalanced on accident. Foreigners are atleast trying to make balanced maps, not to rig the proleague results based on what kespa wants. My point is, the korean maps are by no means balanced, despite having mass-testing, so why be afraid of imbalances in foreign maps if you accept their imbalances? You already are fine watching and playing games on imbalanced maps, but the fact that an imbalanced map might be made by a foreigner is just unacceptable? Mondragon, the zvp foreign master said, zvp on Wuthering Heights was ridiculously hard. Look at TSL, the RO8 had what, 6 protoss, 1 zerg and 1 terran, and of those 3 protoss and 1 terran advanced to the RO4? Wouldn't you expect there to be more terran players and zerg players on a balanced mappool? Or are you guys all protoss and don't care? I'm not blaming the results of TSL on the mappool, and I think the maps chosen were in fact that best, but I'm just saying you guys are putting down the idea of foreign maps due to practice time and imbalances, and the TSL1 players already had to work through that, with two new and not yet popular maps to have to learn, with a fairly statistically protoss favouring mappool, so we've already got down 2 of the problems involved. That just leaves, construction of the map itself. For 5k players WILL learn a new map, they did it this TSL, they'll do it again. I think the way construction would work, if it happened, is that you'd get a couple of mappers who'd make maps, they'd be looked at by other mappers, maybe we'd have a mapping team as op suggested, then we'd refine the best maps made and show TL. If the admins, players, members etc generally thought the map(s) was/were solid, then we could go work on testing. It's the summer, I'm sure some high up players can give the community a little bit of their time and help test the maps a little bit, express their concerns, have some of the things they were concerned with looked into and tested, have the map(s) edited, and do it again a couple times. Throw the map(s) into iccup and see what players think of the map. Make a money tournament with the maps in it, players won't just cheese through the maps I think if there's money involved. There's lots of ways to get testing done in the maps, even without a proteam. No maps are perfectly balanced, and even the most balanced can easily become imbalanced by a change in style or gameplay, so to ask for foreigners to make a perfectly balanced map is just absurd, and if you're not looking for a perfectly balanced map, then we can get you a great, solid map no problem. You act like the old foreign maps were any different from the current foreign maps. They had if anything, less testing and less gameplay/balance consideration than maps do now, but you keep glorifying the "old foreign maps", probably because you don't rememeber them or never really played them lol. We can make maps better now than we ever could in the past, so if you've ever liked our maps, you'll still like them now. Can we make TSL quality maps? imo yes, but I think only time and some motivation will tell.
You're retarded if you think that the top gamers wouldn't have to learn Othello and Wuthering anyway.
It always goes like this: First progamers start playing a map. Then top amatuers start playing it because it's Courage or because it's one of the more balanced and/or standard pro maps on the circuit. Top foreigners start playing the map with Korean friends. 2nd and 3rd tier foreigners start playing the maps since the top foreigners now are playing them. Finally, months later, your every day D ranker plays the map.
The top foreigners would learn Othello and Wuthering anyway. Why would they bother learning a foreign map that will never EVER be used by Koreans unless it's just that damn good. And don't say the maps are, because the admins are telling you right now: they tested the foreign maps and the maps just were not up to shape. They were at best no better than the Korean maps and probably worse.
Why are you so bent on shoving shit down the throats of the top foreigners? You're saying "let's use the money to force them to play our maps." But even if you do that, you won't be able to force them to get practice because the Koreans won't play them and everyone worth using as a practice partner is competing against you. And as Korean SC continues to produce absolute perfection, your plan forces isolationism. For anyone with WCG or progamer dreams, do you think they will like being forced into your plan? I can tell you which maps people will opt out of.
Before you come trying to force people to play foreign made maps, why don't you make something that people will simply WANT to play. If you aren't even there, then what's the point?
Either I way I support a different map pool, perhaps of maps from a few years ago, old enough so they arent stale any more. As someone said earlier in the thread [I think...] the tsl was like watching programmers but with worse mechanics. Anything to differentiate it from the current/last years OSL and MSL is a good thing, really.
On June 14 2008 04:36 Nightmarjoo wrote: Ok, we'll give the map to Idra to have eSTRO play on, they don't need to practice anyway, everyone knows they can't win the proleague
On June 14 2008 03:21 Mx.DeeP wrote: Out of all the comments here, only 2 are from people who made it reasonably far in TSL1, and both Nony and Artosis pretty much just shot the idea down. Until you can convince the people who will actually need to practice these maps if it comes up, it's not going to get anywhere. If you're not a top foreigner player, it might not seem like a big deal if you can't play Koreans, but it's a HUGE deal. The top guys play hundreds of games to practice and if you take away Koreans, the number of people you can practice with goes down dramatically, especially since there's the chance you'll face a given foreigner player in the tournament itself, making you less likely to practice with him.
Also, in terms of map testing, it takes time and effort on a level most people don't seem to realize. Getting a couple of C, or even B, level iccup players to play a few dozen games on it is not even close to enough. You would need A level players to play thousands of games, testing every possibility and running through macro builds, cheese builds, and every other build you can think of over and over. Does the foreigner community really have those resources? Even if you were to pay a top foreigner clan like MYM to do this, it still wouldn't be enough, none of us have all day to play starcraft like the Korean pros do.
In terms of mapmaking, I don't think even top foreigner players really know the ins and outs of exactly what makes a map balanced or imbalanced. Of course, the good players have a pretty solid idea, but going back and forth between mapmakers and top players alone would be hard enough, even if you don't count the testing. Why go through all this, when you already have maps that have passed the test? Of course, the Korean maps aren't perfect, but they have sort of a minimum quality assurance that you wouldn't get with foreigner maps.
What I dislike about what they're saying, is that it somehow applies only to foreign-made maps, and not brand new korean they don't know (Othello, Wuthering Heights). Sure, you can perhaps feel safer knowing koreans already mass-tested the map, but that doesn't ensure balance at all, because the maps are selected often to offset the previous season's imbalances (like python being made while savior was raping everyone and their mothers, or protoss sucking ass and then katrina and baekmoji being put in). Katrina is 73% p>t, Andromeda is 72% p>t, I somehow doubt the korean mappers are stupid enough to make a map that imbalanced on accident. Foreigners are atleast trying to make balanced maps, not to rig the proleague results based on what kespa wants. My point is, the korean maps are by no means balanced, despite having mass-testing, so why be afraid of imbalances in foreign maps if you accept their imbalances? You already are fine watching and playing games on imbalanced maps, but the fact that an imbalanced map might be made by a foreigner is just unacceptable? Mondragon, the zvp foreign master said, zvp on Wuthering Heights was ridiculously hard. Look at TSL, the RO8 had what, 6 protoss, 1 zerg and 1 terran, and of those 3 protoss and 1 terran advanced to the RO4? Wouldn't you expect there to be more terran players and zerg players on a balanced mappool? Or are you guys all protoss and don't care? I'm not blaming the results of TSL on the mappool, and I think the maps chosen were in fact that best, but I'm just saying you guys are putting down the idea of foreign maps due to practice time and imbalances, and the TSL1 players already had to work through that, with two new and not yet popular maps to have to learn, with a fairly statistically protoss favouring mappool, so we've already got down 2 of the problems involved. That just leaves, construction of the map itself. For 5k players WILL learn a new map, they did it this TSL, they'll do it again. I think the way construction would work, if it happened, is that you'd get a couple of mappers who'd make maps, they'd be looked at by other mappers, maybe we'd have a mapping team as op suggested, then we'd refine the best maps made and show TL. If the admins, players, members etc generally thought the map(s) was/were solid, then we could go work on testing. It's the summer, I'm sure some high up players can give the community a little bit of their time and help test the maps a little bit, express their concerns, have some of the things they were concerned with looked into and tested, have the map(s) edited, and do it again a couple times. Throw the map(s) into iccup and see what players think of the map. Make a money tournament with the maps in it, players won't just cheese through the maps I think if there's money involved. There's lots of ways to get testing done in the maps, even without a proteam. No maps are perfectly balanced, and even the most balanced can easily become imbalanced by a change in style or gameplay, so to ask for foreigners to make a perfectly balanced map is just absurd, and if you're not looking for a perfectly balanced map, then we can get you a great, solid map no problem. You act like the old foreign maps were any different from the current foreign maps. They had if anything, less testing and less gameplay/balance consideration than maps do now, but you keep glorifying the "old foreign maps", probably because you don't rememeber them or never really played them lol. We can make maps better now than we ever could in the past, so if you've ever liked our maps, you'll still like them now. Can we make TSL quality maps? imo yes, but I think only time and some motivation will tell.
You're retarded if you think that the top gamers wouldn't have to learn Othello and Wuthering anyway.
It always goes like this: First progamers start playing a map. Then top amatuers start playing it because it's Courage or because it's one of the more balanced and/or standard pro maps on the circuit. Top foreigners start playing the map with Korean friends. 2nd and 3rd tier foreigners start playing the maps since the top foreigners now are playing them. Finally, months later, your every day D ranker plays the map.
The top foreigners would learn Othello and Wuthering anyway. Why would they bother learning a foreign map that will never EVER be used by Koreans unless it's just that damn good. And don't say the maps are, because the admins are telling you right now: they tested the foreign maps and the maps just were not up to shape. They were at best no better than the Korean maps and probably worse.
Why are you so bent on shoving shit down the throats of the top foreigners? You're saying "let's use the money to force them to play our maps." But even if you do that, you won't be able to force them to get practice because the Koreans won't play them and everyone worth using as a practice partner is competing against you. And as Korean SC continues to produce absolute perfection, your plan forces isolationism. For anyone with WCG or progamer dreams, do you think they will like being forced into your plan? I can tell you which maps people will opt out of.
Before you come trying to force people to play foreign made maps, why don't you make something that people will simply WANT to play. If you aren't even there, then what's the point?
Why are you being so fucking hostile? Go fuck yourself wtf. The point of this thread is to explore the possibility of adding foreign maps to TSL, my posts are both in support of the idea, and explaining how I think we could make it possible. The fact that they would've learned Othello and Wuthering Heights eventually is irrelevant, the point is that they had to learn a map they didn't know for a prestegious event (TSL). If a foreign map actually made it to TSL, it would definitely atleast also go into iccup, possibly the wgt pool as well, so it's possible they'd want to or have to learn the map in the future anyway.
You really think adding one map to TSL is going ruin every top foreigner's life? Yes I can see that koreans won't play them on that one map (I can't see more than one map being added), but from the sounds of it a lot of the players dodged koreans during the ladder stage anyway, so I can't see that making such a big difference as you make it out to be. They can practice vs koreans on every other map in the pool, who cares?
I thought the point of TSL was to give foreigners a chance to play at a similar competetive level as the koreans, to give foreigners their own experience, not to just copy the Korean stuff. That's why the idea of bringing a foreign map came up, because it's a foreign league. I think that in the last several years, that there's only been two foreigners who actually went to korea to join a team shows that the foreign starcraft community is already quite in isolation, so I fail to see how adding one map to one league is going make a difference there. Nor do I see how just copying the korean maps is going to fix that either, we've been playing on the korean maps for years with very few people actually making it to korea.
Bare in mind, TSL is an event not just for the players, but for the foreign spectators who can someone they can possibly better relate to to cheer for, not the enigmatic korean progamers. A foreign map would give the spectators a different experience than they can get from just watching the korean leagues. I don't know if it ultimately would be a better or worse experience, but it would be different. I'd say that in general TSL is a worse experience for foreigners because the players aren't as good as the koreans, and ergo can't pull off as spectacular and exciting games. The fact that it's foreign players, from our own countries, helps counter this a lot, it really is OUR experience, not the korean experience that we're just watching. Adding a foreign map would add legitimacy to the league as being OUR league, because it would have OUR map.
Some korean dude should help you get contacts with the pro-mappers. I remember that someone told me RoV was taken from some foreigner guy and made into a pro-map right?
In theory adding a foreign map to TSL would be good for separating our league from the koreans. A definitely should be considered for any future TSL. However the chances of a map of sufficient quality emerging from our foreign mapping scene is just under miracle.
This isn't TSL's issue, this is an issue with the foreign map scene and how much the foreign community cares about them. For consideration of a map pool, it's much easier to refer to the korean professional scene for maps as their maps will have guaranteed support / statistics / data. From the foreign scene, all we have is low level theorycraft.
The point of TSL was to create an environment for foreign players to play quality games in front of an audience. A single bad map can ruin an entire tournament, there is a gigantic risk in using a unfamiliar map. In the event of an oversight in the evaluation of a foreign map (or any map), it would ruin TSL and any future opportunities for TSL.
Agreed, pachi. Personally I think it's a risk worth taking, coming from the mapping point of view but I definitely see what you're saying. I think though, that such a miracle map can't occur with TSL giving mappers the go, without TSL saying "yes, there is a CHANCE we will use your map". I think with that kind of motivation such a miracle map is possible, but impossible as long as TL and TSL says no, fuck foreign maps in such a high level, important event. If TL is willing to consider the idea, we can make the best maps we can, and see if any impress you. Just because we make a map doesn't mean TL has to comit, but we'd need TL to tell us it's possible first =/
New maps sound like a great idea. How about intoducing EXPERIMENTAL games to try out these maps? Let me explain: Lets say the TSL will stream two players playing. Well before these two players start to play, let's have 2 other players, who were eliminated earlier, play on an experimental/new/fun/goofy/random map. This would provide the audience with some entertainment before the actual match begins and would also help decide whether the experimental map should be included as an official map in TSL THREEEE!!!
Also maybe TL could take a poll on which players they want to see play on the experimental map. Your favorite player gets eliminated? No problem, have them come back
I personally don't like really experimental maps though. They're impossible to theory-craft balance, and really hard to balance with testing. It depends on the level of experimentation though.
On June 14 2008 12:49 ._. wrote: Some korean dude should help you get contacts with the pro-mappers. I remember that someone told me RoV was taken from some foreigner guy and made into a pro-map right?
If all you were bout it then we wouldnt be having this discussion. But 90% could prolly give a shit :o If anyone likes the idea then start testing maps and show them off if they end up being solid. Its not that hard. You gotta take step one and two if you want to make it to step 3. So fuck just talking about maps when we're not even sure which maps would be added anyway. Assemble a real team to test out the maps then this would be a discussion.
Really? I think Requiem would be sick to see again. Progamers from the 2005 era are comparable to the foreigners now and time tested strategies of all sorts were exhibited on it.
And whatever small imbalances there were, map makers now could just modify it for the tournament.
On June 14 2008 04:36 Nightmarjoo wrote: Ok, we'll give the map to Idra to have eSTRO play on, they don't need to practice anyway, everyone knows they can't win the proleague
On June 14 2008 03:21 Mx.DeeP wrote: Out of all the comments here, only 2 are from people who made it reasonably far in TSL1, and both Nony and Artosis pretty much just shot the idea down. Until you can convince the people who will actually need to practice these maps if it comes up, it's not going to get anywhere. If you're not a top foreigner player, it might not seem like a big deal if you can't play Koreans, but it's a HUGE deal. The top guys play hundreds of games to practice and if you take away Koreans, the number of people you can practice with goes down dramatically, especially since there's the chance you'll face a given foreigner player in the tournament itself, making you less likely to practice with him.
Also, in terms of map testing, it takes time and effort on a level most people don't seem to realize. Getting a couple of C, or even B, level iccup players to play a few dozen games on it is not even close to enough. You would need A level players to play thousands of games, testing every possibility and running through macro builds, cheese builds, and every other build you can think of over and over. Does the foreigner community really have those resources? Even if you were to pay a top foreigner clan like MYM to do this, it still wouldn't be enough, none of us have all day to play starcraft like the Korean pros do.
In terms of mapmaking, I don't think even top foreigner players really know the ins and outs of exactly what makes a map balanced or imbalanced. Of course, the good players have a pretty solid idea, but going back and forth between mapmakers and top players alone would be hard enough, even if you don't count the testing. Why go through all this, when you already have maps that have passed the test? Of course, the Korean maps aren't perfect, but they have sort of a minimum quality assurance that you wouldn't get with foreigner maps.
What I dislike about what they're saying, is that it somehow applies only to foreign-made maps, and not brand new korean they don't know (Othello, Wuthering Heights). Sure, you can perhaps feel safer knowing koreans already mass-tested the map, but that doesn't ensure balance at all, because the maps are selected often to offset the previous season's imbalances (like python being made while savior was raping everyone and their mothers, or protoss sucking ass and then katrina and baekmoji being put in). Katrina is 73% p>t, Andromeda is 72% p>t, I somehow doubt the korean mappers are stupid enough to make a map that imbalanced on accident. Foreigners are atleast trying to make balanced maps, not to rig the proleague results based on what kespa wants. My point is, the korean maps are by no means balanced, despite having mass-testing, so why be afraid of imbalances in foreign maps if you accept their imbalances? You already are fine watching and playing games on imbalanced maps, but the fact that an imbalanced map might be made by a foreigner is just unacceptable? Mondragon, the zvp foreign master said, zvp on Wuthering Heights was ridiculously hard. Look at TSL, the RO8 had what, 6 protoss, 1 zerg and 1 terran, and of those 3 protoss and 1 terran advanced to the RO4? Wouldn't you expect there to be more terran players and zerg players on a balanced mappool? Or are you guys all protoss and don't care? I'm not blaming the results of TSL on the mappool, and I think the maps chosen were in fact that best, but I'm just saying you guys are putting down the idea of foreign maps due to practice time and imbalances, and the TSL1 players already had to work through that, with two new and not yet popular maps to have to learn, with a fairly statistically protoss favouring mappool, so we've already got down 2 of the problems involved. That just leaves, construction of the map itself. For 5k players WILL learn a new map, they did it this TSL, they'll do it again. I think the way construction would work, if it happened, is that you'd get a couple of mappers who'd make maps, they'd be looked at by other mappers, maybe we'd have a mapping team as op suggested, then we'd refine the best maps made and show TL. If the admins, players, members etc generally thought the map(s) was/were solid, then we could go work on testing. It's the summer, I'm sure some high up players can give the community a little bit of their time and help test the maps a little bit, express their concerns, have some of the things they were concerned with looked into and tested, have the map(s) edited, and do it again a couple times. Throw the map(s) into iccup and see what players think of the map. Make a money tournament with the maps in it, players won't just cheese through the maps I think if there's money involved. There's lots of ways to get testing done in the maps, even without a proteam. No maps are perfectly balanced, and even the most balanced can easily become imbalanced by a change in style or gameplay, so to ask for foreigners to make a perfectly balanced map is just absurd, and if you're not looking for a perfectly balanced map, then we can get you a great, solid map no problem. You act like the old foreign maps were any different from the current foreign maps. They had if anything, less testing and less gameplay/balance consideration than maps do now, but you keep glorifying the "old foreign maps", probably because you don't rememeber them or never really played them lol. We can make maps better now than we ever could in the past, so if you've ever liked our maps, you'll still like them now. Can we make TSL quality maps? imo yes, but I think only time and some motivation will tell.
You're retarded if you think that the top gamers wouldn't have to learn Othello and Wuthering anyway.
It always goes like this: First progamers start playing a map. Then top amatuers start playing it because it's Courage or because it's one of the more balanced and/or standard pro maps on the circuit. Top foreigners start playing the map with Korean friends. 2nd and 3rd tier foreigners start playing the maps since the top foreigners now are playing them. Finally, months later, your every day D ranker plays the map.
The top foreigners would learn Othello and Wuthering anyway. Why would they bother learning a foreign map that will never EVER be used by Koreans unless it's just that damn good. And don't say the maps are, because the admins are telling you right now: they tested the foreign maps and the maps just were not up to shape. They were at best no better than the Korean maps and probably worse.
Why are you so bent on shoving shit down the throats of the top foreigners? You're saying "let's use the money to force them to play our maps." But even if you do that, you won't be able to force them to get practice because the Koreans won't play them and everyone worth using as a practice partner is competing against you. And as Korean SC continues to produce absolute perfection, your plan forces isolationism. For anyone with WCG or progamer dreams, do you think they will like being forced into your plan? I can tell you which maps people will opt out of.
Before you come trying to force people to play foreign made maps, why don't you make something that people will simply WANT to play. If you aren't even there, then what's the point?
Why are you being so fucking hostile? Go fuck yourself wtf. The point of this thread is to explore the possibility of adding foreign maps to TSL, my posts are both in support of the idea, and explaining how I think we could make it possible. The fact that they would've learned Othello and Wuthering Heights eventually is irrelevant, the point is that they had to learn a map they didn't know for a prestegious event (TSL). If a foreign map actually made it to TSL, it would definitely atleast also go into iccup, possibly the wgt pool as well, so it's possible they'd want to or have to learn the map in the future anyway.
You really think adding one map to TSL is going ruin every top foreigner's life? Yes I can see that koreans won't play them on that one map (I can't see more than one map being added), but from the sounds of it a lot of the players dodged koreans during the ladder stage anyway, so I can't see that making such a big difference as you make it out to be. They can practice vs koreans on every other map in the pool, who cares?
I thought the point of TSL was to give foreigners a chance to play at a similar competetive level as the koreans, to give foreigners their own experience, not to just copy the Korean stuff. That's why the idea of bringing a foreign map came up, because it's a foreign league. I think that in the last several years, that there's only been two foreigners who actually went to korea to join a team shows that the foreign starcraft community is already quite in isolation, so I fail to see how adding one map to one league is going make a difference there. Nor do I see how just copying the korean maps is going to fix that either, we've been playing on the korean maps for years with very few people actually making it to korea.
Bare in mind, TSL is an event not just for the players, but for the foreign spectators who can someone they can possibly better relate to to cheer for, not the enigmatic korean progamers. A foreign map would give the spectators a different experience than they can get from just watching the korean leagues. I don't know if it ultimately would be a better or worse experience, but it would be different. I'd say that in general TSL is a worse experience for foreigners because the players aren't as good as the koreans, and ergo can't pull off as spectacular and exciting games. The fact that it's foreign players, from our own countries, helps counter this a lot, it really is OUR experience, not the korean experience that we're just watching. Adding a foreign map would add legitimacy to the league as being OUR league, because it would have OUR map.
What point is there in trying to define a foreign scene? The only reason we exclude Koreans from our tournaments is so that we have a chance. You seem to think that we should have a foreign map just because there are only foreign players. That's not a valid justification.
Certainly very few players go to Korea. It's a difficult transition, having to rise to the top in a FAR more competitive environment while dealing with language and cultural barriers. All the while, you won't get paid terribly much. This is clearly not a life for everyone.
However, even if we want to distinguish ourselves with our own tournaments, to maximize competitive play, the top foreigners MUST practice with Koreans and MUST borrow strategies thought of by Koreans. It is simply unavoidable.
On June 14 2008 04:36 Nightmarjoo wrote: Ok, we'll give the map to Idra to have eSTRO play on, they don't need to practice anyway, everyone knows they can't win the proleague
On June 14 2008 03:21 Mx.DeeP wrote: Out of all the comments here, only 2 are from people who made it reasonably far in TSL1, and both Nony and Artosis pretty much just shot the idea down. Until you can convince the people who will actually need to practice these maps if it comes up, it's not going to get anywhere. If you're not a top foreigner player, it might not seem like a big deal if you can't play Koreans, but it's a HUGE deal. The top guys play hundreds of games to practice and if you take away Koreans, the number of people you can practice with goes down dramatically, especially since there's the chance you'll face a given foreigner player in the tournament itself, making you less likely to practice with him.
Also, in terms of map testing, it takes time and effort on a level most people don't seem to realize. Getting a couple of C, or even B, level iccup players to play a few dozen games on it is not even close to enough. You would need A level players to play thousands of games, testing every possibility and running through macro builds, cheese builds, and every other build you can think of over and over. Does the foreigner community really have those resources? Even if you were to pay a top foreigner clan like MYM to do this, it still wouldn't be enough, none of us have all day to play starcraft like the Korean pros do.
In terms of mapmaking, I don't think even top foreigner players really know the ins and outs of exactly what makes a map balanced or imbalanced. Of course, the good players have a pretty solid idea, but going back and forth between mapmakers and top players alone would be hard enough, even if you don't count the testing. Why go through all this, when you already have maps that have passed the test? Of course, the Korean maps aren't perfect, but they have sort of a minimum quality assurance that you wouldn't get with foreigner maps.
What I dislike about what they're saying, is that it somehow applies only to foreign-made maps, and not brand new korean they don't know (Othello, Wuthering Heights). Sure, you can perhaps feel safer knowing koreans already mass-tested the map, but that doesn't ensure balance at all, because the maps are selected often to offset the previous season's imbalances (like python being made while savior was raping everyone and their mothers, or protoss sucking ass and then katrina and baekmoji being put in). Katrina is 73% p>t, Andromeda is 72% p>t, I somehow doubt the korean mappers are stupid enough to make a map that imbalanced on accident. Foreigners are atleast trying to make balanced maps, not to rig the proleague results based on what kespa wants. My point is, the korean maps are by no means balanced, despite having mass-testing, so why be afraid of imbalances in foreign maps if you accept their imbalances? You already are fine watching and playing games on imbalanced maps, but the fact that an imbalanced map might be made by a foreigner is just unacceptable? Mondragon, the zvp foreign master said, zvp on Wuthering Heights was ridiculously hard. Look at TSL, the RO8 had what, 6 protoss, 1 zerg and 1 terran, and of those 3 protoss and 1 terran advanced to the RO4? Wouldn't you expect there to be more terran players and zerg players on a balanced mappool? Or are you guys all protoss and don't care? I'm not blaming the results of TSL on the mappool, and I think the maps chosen were in fact that best, but I'm just saying you guys are putting down the idea of foreign maps due to practice time and imbalances, and the TSL1 players already had to work through that, with two new and not yet popular maps to have to learn, with a fairly statistically protoss favouring mappool, so we've already got down 2 of the problems involved. That just leaves, construction of the map itself. For 5k players WILL learn a new map, they did it this TSL, they'll do it again. I think the way construction would work, if it happened, is that you'd get a couple of mappers who'd make maps, they'd be looked at by other mappers, maybe we'd have a mapping team as op suggested, then we'd refine the best maps made and show TL. If the admins, players, members etc generally thought the map(s) was/were solid, then we could go work on testing. It's the summer, I'm sure some high up players can give the community a little bit of their time and help test the maps a little bit, express their concerns, have some of the things they were concerned with looked into and tested, have the map(s) edited, and do it again a couple times. Throw the map(s) into iccup and see what players think of the map. Make a money tournament with the maps in it, players won't just cheese through the maps I think if there's money involved. There's lots of ways to get testing done in the maps, even without a proteam. No maps are perfectly balanced, and even the most balanced can easily become imbalanced by a change in style or gameplay, so to ask for foreigners to make a perfectly balanced map is just absurd, and if you're not looking for a perfectly balanced map, then we can get you a great, solid map no problem. You act like the old foreign maps were any different from the current foreign maps. They had if anything, less testing and less gameplay/balance consideration than maps do now, but you keep glorifying the "old foreign maps", probably because you don't rememeber them or never really played them lol. We can make maps better now than we ever could in the past, so if you've ever liked our maps, you'll still like them now. Can we make TSL quality maps? imo yes, but I think only time and some motivation will tell.
You're retarded if you think that the top gamers wouldn't have to learn Othello and Wuthering anyway.
It always goes like this: First progamers start playing a map. Then top amatuers start playing it because it's Courage or because it's one of the more balanced and/or standard pro maps on the circuit. Top foreigners start playing the map with Korean friends. 2nd and 3rd tier foreigners start playing the maps since the top foreigners now are playing them. Finally, months later, your every day D ranker plays the map.
The top foreigners would learn Othello and Wuthering anyway. Why would they bother learning a foreign map that will never EVER be used by Koreans unless it's just that damn good. And don't say the maps are, because the admins are telling you right now: they tested the foreign maps and the maps just were not up to shape. They were at best no better than the Korean maps and probably worse.
Why are you so bent on shoving shit down the throats of the top foreigners? You're saying "let's use the money to force them to play our maps." But even if you do that, you won't be able to force them to get practice because the Koreans won't play them and everyone worth using as a practice partner is competing against you. And as Korean SC continues to produce absolute perfection, your plan forces isolationism. For anyone with WCG or progamer dreams, do you think they will like being forced into your plan? I can tell you which maps people will opt out of.
Before you come trying to force people to play foreign made maps, why don't you make something that people will simply WANT to play. If you aren't even there, then what's the point?
Why are you being so fucking hostile? Go fuck yourself wtf. The point of this thread is to explore the possibility of adding foreign maps to TSL, my posts are both in support of the idea, and explaining how I think we could make it possible. The fact that they would've learned Othello and Wuthering Heights eventually is irrelevant, the point is that they had to learn a map they didn't know for a prestegious event (TSL). If a foreign map actually made it to TSL, it would definitely atleast also go into iccup, possibly the wgt pool as well, so it's possible they'd want to or have to learn the map in the future anyway.
You really think adding one map to TSL is going ruin every top foreigner's life? Yes I can see that koreans won't play them on that one map (I can't see more than one map being added), but from the sounds of it a lot of the players dodged koreans during the ladder stage anyway, so I can't see that making such a big difference as you make it out to be. They can practice vs koreans on every other map in the pool, who cares?
I thought the point of TSL was to give foreigners a chance to play at a similar competetive level as the koreans, to give foreigners their own experience, not to just copy the Korean stuff. That's why the idea of bringing a foreign map came up, because it's a foreign league. I think that in the last several years, that there's only been two foreigners who actually went to korea to join a team shows that the foreign starcraft community is already quite in isolation, so I fail to see how adding one map to one league is going make a difference there. Nor do I see how just copying the korean maps is going to fix that either, we've been playing on the korean maps for years with very few people actually making it to korea.
Bare in mind, TSL is an event not just for the players, but for the foreign spectators who can someone they can possibly better relate to to cheer for, not the enigmatic korean progamers. A foreign map would give the spectators a different experience than they can get from just watching the korean leagues. I don't know if it ultimately would be a better or worse experience, but it would be different. I'd say that in general TSL is a worse experience for foreigners because the players aren't as good as the koreans, and ergo can't pull off as spectacular and exciting games. The fact that it's foreign players, from our own countries, helps counter this a lot, it really is OUR experience, not the korean experience that we're just watching. Adding a foreign map would add legitimacy to the league as being OUR league, because it would have OUR map.
What point is there in trying to define a foreign scene? The only reason we exclude Koreans from our tournaments is so that we have a chance. You seem to think that we should have a foreign map just because there are only foreign players. That's not a valid justification.
Certainly very few players go to Korea. It's a difficult transition, having to rise to the top in a FAR more competitive environment while dealing with language and cultural barriers. All the while, you won't get paid terribly much. This is clearly not a life for everyone.
However, even if we want to distinguish ourselves with our own tournaments, to maximize competitive play, the top foreigners MUST practice with Koreans and MUST borrow strategies thought of by Koreans. It is simply unavoidable.
Just because you have to train with koreans and use similar build styles doesnt mean the tsl just has to be a carbon copy of the osl and or msl with lower quality games. Why should we NOT define the foreign scene? If Starcraft wants to grow outside of Korea, we are going have to do it OURSELVES. If we want to grow the Foreign scene, not only in popularity amongst everyone, but get better as a whole population, to get more sponsors and coverage, to move esports forward outside of korea WE HAVE TO DEFINE OURSELVES. EVERYTHING RESTS ON THIS.
EPT
