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On June 08 2008 07:16 alffla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2008 06:00 fight_or_flight wrote:
Maybe in the 3rd TSL they could try to experiment, for example, allowing a new foreign map to be used in the ladder. If its imbalanced then people simply wouldn't play it. Then maybe if its successful enough it could be included in the elimination rounds by mutual agreement of the players.
I don't have a problem with korean maps, and don't think are a rehash. First of all, none of those games are in english. And you don't want to use untested maps in a tournament anyways. lol whats that bout english?? didnt get that point anyway the thing that anotak has repeatedly said is to test the maps through a strict procedure anyway so if that's successful there'll be no problems! :D yayy i'm all for the foreigner maps!
I think he meant that pro-gaming is in korean, therefore, the matches that we would see in the TSL are still interesting even on these often used maps as the commentary is in English.
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I support the proposal for a single foreigner map added into the pool.
It characterizes the TSL as a foreigner's tournament, and wouldn't have an overwhelming affect on it, just a substantial one.
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Well here's a thread where I can be useful, I think.
TSL has several things to consider here. I'll say now, that Faoi ALMOST got into THIS tsl. It was at the last minute rejected, because there was no way to prove it was "balanced". TSL also removed Troy from the mappool, making the mappool in general solid and it showed a big legitimate and more importantly credible effort to ensure a mappool both comfortable and familiar for the players, and that was the most free from weirdness. On one hand, this may have created less "interesting" games, but also allowed players to better adapt to the mapppol. Having the progamers to look after, this allowed our gamers to prepare builds fairly easily, allowed the gamers to be well prepared, well practiced. It allowed the gamers to be most like the progamers in quality. Then to ensure more interesting stuff, they added Wuthering Heights and Othello. On these maps the players were less comfortable, but it added more randomness to the competition. They had less to work with from progamers at the time, but the maps were still heavily tested by the koreans and were fairly ensured to be solid/balanced maps. Who cares if the mapppol was not completely racially balanced, it was close enough.
Faoi I assume didn't make it into the pool not because it was a bad map, or because someone didn't like it, but because there was a lot more risk and chance involved in throwing a map with MUCH less testing. Sure the map is in iccup, but the quality of iccup games can vary so much, and many iccup games are just "cheese" or rushing games, because the players aren't familiar with it. Having a map the players are afraid of for not knowing it or being used to it, resulting in a bunch of rushing games, would destroy the credibility and quality of TSL. Testing a map is a very robotic activity, testing all aspects, rush distance, mineral timing, which builds and openings are strong or weak, how to layout your base, for standard play: who will be ahead, will the game be massive turtling, etc.
For a future TSL, I think including foreign maps is very possible, if the top gamers are willing to help test the maps. I think if our gamers learned Wuthering Heights and Othello they can learn a foreign map no problem. Psychotemplar said some bullshit earlier about foreign mappers making lots of stupid maps not caring about balance, but that's not true. In mapping in general, korean or foreign, there's both efforts at making brand new concepts, "weird" and experimental maps, and standard maps with a different layout or something.
"Foreigners don't have the ability to properly test their maps" absolute bullshit.
"Foreigner maps would be cool for retarded unprestigious tournaments, where viewers just want to see some silly games, but this is quite simply a bad idea for TSL" The first part is complete bullshit, foreigner maps have been in tournaments and ladders forever, pgt, wgt, avaton, showmatches, blizzcon, and other things. The second part, about foreign maps being a bad idea for TSL is possibly valid though. It depends solely on what direction TSL wants to go, if it wants to copy and mimic the korean leagues to try and get that same or similar quality and success, or if it wants to truely make its own league with its own maps. TSL could create unique games, by using more experimental maps like Waiting To Panic, seen in this forum, or go for more standard games, using more standard maps, like Memory Cell, The Artist, Nazca, Nightlight, etc.
The thing that holds foreign mapping back, the thing that seperates korean maps from foreign maps, is the level of testing they can get. Go to intothemap.com or mapdori.net. Most maps there are complete shit. They have gems too, but even their really great maps don't go on to the big leagues. The famous mappers or mappers with good connections are the ones who get their maps into the leagues, the ones who get their maps tested. With massive testing by good players, any mapper can modify their map into the great maps you see in OSL and MSL. The mapping process can easily take a month or longer, after your own "final" version is done. Mappers themselves will look at a map, do some basic testing, bounce ideas off fellow mappers, and work on the map until they have a "final" version. But that map isn't proleague quality, but it CAN be Avaton quality. That "final" map won't be TSL quality, but give the mappers players to bounce ideas off of, to try and get a map which has certain gameplay different from some other map, but still comfortable and/or somewhat familiar to the players, is not at all hard.
Mappers at broodwarmaps.net work together all the time to put together a good map. These maps have been in all sorts of foreign ladders and tournaments, so it's bullshit to say that foreigners are incapable of making quality maps. We just need testers. It's just so hard to get even low level gamers to test maps, let alone top gamers.
Making unique but not experimental maps is not a problem. Making experimental but playable maps with unique concepts and unique gameplays, is not a problem either. Making standard but unique maps is not hard, making maps both balanced and unique is not hard. Anyone can do it. Take any bwm mapper and you can get a unique, great map. Get a bunch of mappers together to work on that map, and you can make it pretty, you can adjust locations, sizes, distances, amounts, etc. Throw those mappers alone on the map itself, and you can learn tons about the map and edit it even more. But after that point we, the foreign mapping community needs essentially massgaming on the maps to uncover every nook and cranny about the map.
I learned a lot about editing maps from working on Faoi and getting it into iccup. The first version of the map I churned out really sucked. Then, my friend and fellow mapper Testbug took the map and worked on it himself, and created a much better structured, but fundamentally the same, map. After that, I showed the map to iccup admin Yello-Ant, who happened to like the map. At this point though, time became an issue, we were like a couple days before the start of the new iccup season. He got a Lyra team member to come quickly play the map, and grabbed Strelok for a moment too. We (me, yello-ant, and strelok) looked over the map, didn't play it, just looked over it and played with units, and looked at things which should be looked into, changed, removed, etc. When we were done I went and worked on the map more until yello-ant was satisfied, and the map went into iccup. Through the season I found things I disliked about the map, and began working on an edit. Then Plexa contacted me about interest in the map for TSL, and I began working with him on the map. Together, without any solid gamers, we created by bouncing ideas off eachother the current version of the map, which now replaces the old version in iccup, with many things corrected.
The point of this anecdote, is all of that was done without massive testing, without koreans, and without a lot of time. With time, with solid gamers and massgaming, a real GOOD and playable, and unique map, can be created without doubt.
Specifically on op's post, making a competent mapping team isn't a problem, but I don't see how TL can do a good job assembling it. I think those kind of logistics are better in the hands of broodwarmaps.net itself. It comes down to though, what kind of map TSL wants.
Also, would you rather our top gamers kept copying the progamers? Or tried doing these kind of things on their own, making their own builds for the map? It'll be hard for our gamers for sure, they don't have the kind of practice time or availability of players to do as good a job as the progamers, possibly reducing the quality of the games in TSL. However, this I think would add more credibility to foreign gaming in general. Our best gamers are just mimicking the progamers, TSL itself is just a copy of a korean league. It's ours, but at the same time it's not really unique or special. I don't mean to downplay how fucking awesome TSL is though.
I spose it comes to what direction TSL wants to go, and what direction the foreign starcraft scene in general wants to go. I can say now, that for sure bwm mappers would be willing to cooperate with TL and TSL to create such a map. I guarantee we could come up with a cooperative and skilled mapping team. I can show you the great maps we've made without the community's help, or even support, so I can guarantee solid maps for TSL if TL gives us support and help.
Adding foreign maps though, even with time, testing, cooperation, and a good team of TL members/admins and bwm members/admins/mappers, is still a big gamble on TL/TSL's part though.
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I like the idea of more map variety. I hope this isn't a stupid idea, but perhaps a different way of addressing the balance issue: what about using a couple of throwback maps? After enough time has passed, an old map would be almost as good as a new one. (I don't know about everyone else, but to me, it would be kind of cool to see a modern game on Lost Temple.)
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Jesus, Nightmarjoo. This is a forum, write more concisely lol.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
We actually had quite an extensive discussion about whether to include foreign maps or not. As nightmarjoo said Faoi was almost included in the TSL. Obviously, after a heated debate, we decided it was best not to. The majority of the arguments presented here were discussed in depth, and i'd like to talk about them a bit.
First of all this idea of balance. There is no reason amateur maps are inherently imbalanced. Koreans have made some pretty crap maps too, like PA for WCG. The maps are of comparable quality to the amateur korean scene (yes there is such a thing, check out mapdori). There are excellent maps at both levels, the difference is, the mapper who continually makes good maps gets hired by OGN/MBC to map maps such as earthattack. I guess you could say starparty would be the foreign equivalent. So this whole notion of debatable balance really fails. No matter which set of maps you're going to pick you'll always end up with imbalances.
Secondly, and really importantly, is this idea of testing the map. This is much more difficult than you would expect. The idealistic solution is to stick it on a Ladder with MoTW or something. Sadly in reality that solution just doesn't work. It will get maybe a 100 charity games if you are lucky- when idealistically you want 1000+. Testing can only be done with high level gamers, and unlike OGN/MBC we can't pay top clans to play test the maps for us. It's just not an option. So this was another area where it was better not to do foreign maps.
The last issue is whether the maps will actually get used, and i think just quoting nony sums up what we thought. On June 08 2008 03:41 NonY[rC] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2008 23:34 Vasoline73 wrote:On June 07 2008 21:55 BlackStar wrote:On June 07 2008 21:07 anotak wrote:
Players learning new maps was the exact reason I suggested it. Do you want to see players play the same maps over and over again?
They played on new maps. Many foreigners are casual players. They don't have time to learn 12 new maps every 3 months. If your playing to win 5000 dollars then you should be playing more than casually I agree with BlackStar here. Asking foreigners to learn more maps would be stretching us pretty thin. Right now, most foreigners will be practicing WCG maps amongst themselves and will, as usual, be practicing Courage maps with Koreans. That's enough maps for an amateur player. Ideally, an unexpected chance at $5000 would raise practicing rates, but there are priorities for amateur players that do not budge. The organizers did such an excellent and professional job that the participants and spectators get their heads in the clouds thinking this is a professional event, but there are still hard amateur limits that cannot be overcome. ... ... On a sidenote, I do thing amateur mapmakers are capable of making worthy maps. It's a shame the amateur competitive scene isn't equipped to make use of them.
We haven't ruled out the possibility of including foreign maps if there are more TSLs. But given the number of events happening soon, don't hold your breath.
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On June 08 2008 22:26 Plexa wrote:We actually had quite an extensive discussion about whether to include foreign maps or not. As nightmarjoo said Faoi was almost included in the TSL. Obviously, after a heated debate, we decided it was best not to. The majority of the arguments presented here were discussed in depth, and i'd like to talk about them a bit. First of all this idea of balance. There is no reason amateur maps are inherently imbalanced. Koreans have made some pretty crap maps too, like PA for WCG. The maps are of comparable quality to the amateur korean scene (yes there is such a thing, check out mapdori). There are excellent maps at both levels, the difference is, the mapper who continually makes good maps gets hired by OGN/MBC to map maps such as earthattack. I guess you could say starparty would be the foreign equivalent. So this whole notion of debatable balance really fails. No matter which set of maps you're going to pick you'll always end up with imbalances. Secondly, and really importantly, is this idea of testing the map. This is much more difficult than you would expect. The idealistic solution is to stick it on a Ladder with MoTW or something. Sadly in reality that solution just doesn't work. It will get maybe a 100 charity games if you are lucky- when idealistically you want 1000+. Testing can only be done with high level gamers, and unlike OGN/MBC we can't pay top clans to play test the maps for us. It's just not an option. So this was another area where it was better not to do foreign maps. The last issue is whether the maps will actually get used, and i think just quoting nony sums up what we thought. Show nested quote +On June 08 2008 03:41 NonY[rC] wrote:On June 07 2008 23:34 Vasoline73 wrote:On June 07 2008 21:55 BlackStar wrote:On June 07 2008 21:07 anotak wrote:
Players learning new maps was the exact reason I suggested it. Do you want to see players play the same maps over and over again?
They played on new maps. Many foreigners are casual players. They don't have time to learn 12 new maps every 3 months. If your playing to win 5000 dollars then you should be playing more than casually I agree with BlackStar here. Asking foreigners to learn more maps would be stretching us pretty thin. Right now, most foreigners will be practicing WCG maps amongst themselves and will, as usual, be practicing Courage maps with Koreans. That's enough maps for an amateur player. Ideally, an unexpected chance at $5000 would raise practicing rates, but there are priorities for amateur players that do not budge. The organizers did such an excellent and professional job that the participants and spectators get their heads in the clouds thinking this is a professional event, but there are still hard amateur limits that cannot be overcome. ... ... On a sidenote, I do thing amateur mapmakers are capable of making worthy maps. It's a shame the amateur competitive scene isn't equipped to make use of them. We haven't ruled out the possibility of including foreign maps if there are more TSLs. But given the number of events happening soon, don't hold your breath.
Thanks for considering it, I'm glad this got a response from y'all. 
This one might a bit much to ask: but if/when TSL gets further sponsors (beyond TSL2) due to success, and you're capable of asking for more money than previously, hopefully paying a high level team will be possible?
I think the biggest reason TSL had relatively low views though was simply a lack of promotion. I suspect that it was mainly people who already view TL.net + gosugamers and then maybe a few of the other bw sites.
Again, Thanks for considering it. You've made an excellent event.
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Also as a spectator, i prefer maps that i know very well, too and play on my own.
I don't play much right now, so i stick to the maps that are used in the big leagues and tournaments, and not even every of those maps.
Even if a map like faoi is included as motw on iccup, i will more likely choose another motw that is used in other leagues and events.
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I like this Idea, and think it is definitely worth further investigation at the least.
I might favor a series of map making contests where the primary focus is the balance of the maps, just because it is possible to get something innovative, and balanced at the same time, and the odds of that happening with the number of people involved.
At the same time though an internal team of map developers and testers could work just as well assuming the talent is there.
The point is that by having fresh maps that haven't already been tested by hundreds of Korean pro-gamers, in every possible scenario, the possibility for the more creative player to be rewarded exists in the TSL
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
To be fair Motiva, we explored Wuthering Heights in the TSL which proved to be a very entertaining map (i for one enjoyed all the games on it, as did Chill) and we also used Othello which had similar success. Although there is no set date for the next TSL if it were to be held before WCG there would be no way we would include foreign maps as there is already number of maps that foreigners need to practice for this - and to further subdivide their time is not fair.
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I guess Mani wasn't kidding when he said most of the time was spent arguing about maps.
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On June 09 2008 13:41 thunk wrote:
I guess Mani wasn't kidding when he said most of the time was spent arguing about maps.
lol
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using our own set of maps would just widen the gap between the foreign community and the korean community.
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Calgary25955 Posts
What benefit does a spectator get?
And yes, there's like 20 pages arguing about maps and another 20 arguing about format.
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On June 10 2008 04:36 Chill wrote:
What benefit does a spectator get?
And yes, there's like 20 pages arguing about maps and another 20 arguing about format.
Spectator gets to see something they can't get from the korean leagues? Just something different. The games in TSL could easily have occured (presumably in better quality/with higher skill) in the korean leagues, just different names playing.
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Melbourne5338 Posts
Adding a subpar map to a tournament can only weaken it. At most it'd be somewhat of a PR stunt to appeal to masses that we have already covered. Only speaking from my point of view and from the my thoughts about foreign maps in the first TSL as by the time TSL2 starts the world could be upside down.
When maps were chosen for TSL, there was no foreign maps available with the data and support backing it to be able to support fair and high quality games. Additionally there was no clear expert to be able to approach for considering foreign maps, because at the time, the only ambassador was Nightmarjoo who was creating the worst possible image for the foreign map scene with his highly annoying and unprofessional promotion of Faoi in both the TeamLiquid broadcasts and forums.
If a new map was needed to challenge the stale game play of old, we already had a completely new set of Korean maps that would be more popular with the masses to play on. If we had introduced a foreign map to TSL, assuming that it was balanced in game play and races, it still lacked the support of the community.
The Ladder stage is not favorable to new maps as it's easier to just learn one map and mass that map, leading to a lack of opportunity and motivation to play the new map. The qualifier and bracket stages are not favorable to new maps as the players would have no one to practice with.
As a premier tournament, I don't think TSL with its aim being quality is the avenue to revive the popularity of foreign maps. Maybe a ladder with only foreign maps, or a tournament series. For example, Australian Rules Football (a sport popular in only a tiny corner of Australia) trials its rules changes in the preseason as not risk damage to their premier / normal season.
edit: map discussion thread was retarded. it was a bigger issue than mbs
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
To be fair pachi, even Korean maps don't receive significant playtime on a ladder unless they are Luna, Rush Hour, Tau Cross, Longinus, or most recently Python. Only a standard macro map backed by the support of Courage will ever get significant playtime.
And on the count of Nightmarjoo he really let himself go after we decided Faoi would not be in the TSL; he just went about promoting his map like crazy to get some testing on it to show that it was a valid map. Sadly he did go overboard and hurt his own image - but i think people have forgiven him for it now.
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Calgary25955 Posts
On June 11 2008 16:19 Nightmarjoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2008 04:36 Chill wrote:
What benefit does a spectator get?
And yes, there's like 20 pages arguing about maps and another 20 arguing about format. Spectator gets to see something they can't get from the korean leagues? Just something different. The games in TSL could easily have occured (presumably in better quality/with higher skill) in the korean leagues, just different names playing.
This isn't an issue for a lot of the viewers, who are casual StarCraft fans. Watching subpar games with a single dominant strategy is a huge issue, however.
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On June 11 2008 21:29 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2008 16:19 Nightmarjoo wrote:On June 10 2008 04:36 Chill wrote:
What benefit does a spectator get?
And yes, there's like 20 pages arguing about maps and another 20 arguing about format. Spectator gets to see something they can't get from the korean leagues? Just something different. The games in TSL could easily have occured (presumably in better quality/with higher skill) in the korean leagues, just different names playing. This isn't an issue for a lot of the viewers, who are casual StarCraft fans. Watching subpar games with a single dominant strategy is a huge issue, however.
to add onto nightmarjoo's point, they would get a sense that the TSL isn't just the little leagues of the korean tournaments but is truly a competition of its own.
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EPT
