EPTMaps for TSL2 (and the foreigner map-making scene) - Page 2
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
1) you cant practice them: - koreans wont play you on them - if you are in TSL and need to practice them then you are too good to practice vs foreigners who are not in the TSL also 2) they wont be balanced. there are tons of tiny things that balance or unbalance a map in HUGE ways. very few top foreigner players even understand this and i doubt any map makers do. for instance, as a map maker why dont you open up the map WCG Gaia. it is an incredibly imbalanced map. how many things can you point out that make it so bad? i bet not all of them. and without that knowledge, any map made could include tons of tiny things that are imbalanced. | ||
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Wizard
Poland5055 Posts
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flag
United States228 Posts
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
On June 08 2008 02:09 Wizard wrote: I disagree. I think by using korean maps there the entire event is more professional. Maybe but lots of the maps weren't entirely balanced and caterable to the foreign scene. | ||
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Wizard
Poland5055 Posts
On June 08 2008 02:44 Superiorwolf wrote: Maybe but lots of the maps weren't entirely balanced and caterable to the foreign scene. true, what i really meant to say is that if foreign maps that are balanced are use, I'm all for it. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On June 07 2008 23:34 Vasoline73 wrote: If your playing to win 5000 dollars then you should be playing more than casually I agree with BlackStar here. Asking foreigners to learn more maps would be stretching us pretty thin. Right now, most foreigners will be practicing WCG maps amongst themselves and will, as usual, be practicing Courage maps with Koreans. That's enough maps for an amateur player. Ideally, an unexpected chance at $5000 would raise practicing rates, but there are priorities for amateur players that do not budge. The organizers did such an excellent and professional job that the participants and spectators get their heads in the clouds thinking this is a professional event, but there are still hard amateur limits that cannot be overcome. I hate to introduce a negative perspective, but people should think of TSL and OSL/MSL in terms of sports that they watch. If you were to follow the biggest soccer/basketball/football/hockey league and also follow a local amateur league consisting entirely of volunteers, then you'd be level-headed enough to assign the appropriate expectations on the amateur league. Great as they are, the organizers cannot offer the participants incentive enough to give anything more than an amateur effort. On a sidenote, I do thing amateur mapmakers are capable of making worthy maps. It's a shame the amateur competitive scene isn't equipped to make use of them. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32278 Posts
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
On June 08 2008 01:02 Artosis wrote: theres a lot of problems with foreigner made maps. 1) you cant practice them: - koreans wont play you on them - if you are in TSL and need to practice them then you are too good to practice vs foreigners who are not in the TSL also 2) they wont be balanced. there are tons of tiny things that balance or unbalance a map in HUGE ways. very few top foreigner players even understand this and i doubt any map makers do. for instance, as a map maker why dont you open up the map WCG Gaia. it is an incredibly imbalanced map. how many things can you point out that make it so bad? i bet not all of them. and without that knowledge, any map made could include tons of tiny things that are imbalanced. 1) Well, I can't say much to that, but in all the TSL interviews the players mentioned playing practice games with many foreigners rather than Koreans. 2) That's why I suggested massive testing and consulting with the TSL players. You'd also have the long ladder stage that would most likely reveal statistically any imbalances as well. Again, I really doubt it'd be the next Katrina TvP. The few first maps should be pretty basic macro map just to get in the feel of mapmaking, no weird ideas. On June 08 2008 03:41 NonY[rC] wrote: I agree with BlackStar here. Asking foreigners to learn more maps would be stretching us pretty thin. Right now, most foreigners will be practicing WCG maps amongst themselves and will, as usual, be practicing Courage maps with Koreans. That's enough maps for an amateur player. Ideally, an unexpected chance at $5000 would raise practicing rates, but there are priorities for amateur players that do not budge. The organizers did such an excellent and professional job that the participants and spectators get their heads in the clouds thinking this is a professional event, but there are still hard amateur limits that cannot be overcome. I hate to introduce a negative perspective, but people should think of TSL and OSL/MSL in terms of sports that they watch. If you were to follow the biggest soccer/basketball/football/hockey league and also follow a local amateur league consisting entirely of volunteers, then you'd be level-headed enough to assign the appropriate expectations on the amateur league. Great as they are, the organizers cannot offer the participants incentive enough to give anything more than an amateur effort. On a sidenote, I do thing amateur mapmakers are capable of making worthy maps. It's a shame the amateur competitive scene isn't equipped to make use of them. Would 1 new map hurt you that much? All your opponents would be under the same problem of having to learn new maps too... And, well, I don't expect more than an amateur effort, considering that the people playing in TSL are amateurs. They're damn good amateurs though and I really enjoy watching you guys play, I just would rather see something different and hopefully better. Part of the skill of Starcraft is learning and adapting to new maps. And 12 new maps every three months was a horrible exaggeration, I was never suggesting anything of the sort. On June 07 2008 23:20 thunk wrote: Everyone though Demon's forest would be badass, Katrina would be T weighted, and the rush distances too longs for DMZ. I think that if the foreign community stuck to making macro maps instead of strategic maps (like Monty Hall or Persona for instance) before moving on, it foreign intrusion on the map pool could be interesting. DMZ is pretty obviously stupid just with the dwebs, they should've been shot for thinking that up. Same for Demon's Forest. It's quite obvious that they did not test either map anywhere NEAR as much as they should've. | ||
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Byo
Canada210 Posts
The pro of this I think would be if a map is obviously imbalanced race wise then the contestant could veto it, there'd be some hype to draw attention, and theres more "adaptability" factor. Of course there's many cons to this such as having 3 new maps rather than one. That a CONTEST of all things would create creative AND balanced map which I personally doubt as well. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
If you wanna have a tournament for 10 grand, it's nice to know that there aren't maps in the tourney completely giving away games in certain match ups. Foreigners don't have the ability to properly test their maps, and as Artosis said, it's hard to find Koreans who'll care. Foreigner maps would be cool for retarded unprestigious tournaments, where viewers just want to see some silly games, but this is quite simply a bad idea for TSL. I'm afraid the days of Blade Storm and Jungle Story are long gone, and the idea of foreign map makers being able to compete with Koreans is a lost cause. | ||
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uNiGNoRe
Germany1115 Posts
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
On June 08 2008 05:34 PsycHOTemplar wrote: I'll be the first to admit that foreign map makers in general don't care that much about balance, like to use retarded ideas, and generally can't even judge balance objectively in their own maps. If you wanna have a tournament for 10 grand, it's nice to know that there aren't maps in the tourney completely giving away games in certain match ups. Foreigners don't have the ability to properly test their maps, and as Artosis said, it's hard to find Koreans who'll care. Foreigner maps would be cool for retarded unprestigious tournaments, where viewers just want to see some silly games, but this is quite simply a bad idea for TSL. This is because there is no team working hard on balanced maps and nobody tests foreign maps. Again, with a process like the one I suggested, why is it so difficult to imagine a decently balanced map coming out of it? Korean mapmakers make pretty bullshit maps that they obviously haven't tested anywhere near enough. I found the vulture mine-laying bug on Demon's Forest the FIRST TIME I played on it. Why are people defending korean mapmaking "skills"? Sure, they've made some genius things like Othello, but even that has some balance issues. The only thing stopping foreigners from testing their maps is time and effort. First season and probably for many seasons after that, maps should follow a pretty strict no-gimmicks rule. Standard mineral placement, few neutral buildings, no neutral darktemplar blocking paths, none of that stuff. With this and a very strict testing system like the one I mentioned... things could go pretty well. | ||
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
I don't have a problem with korean maps, and don't think are a rehash. First of all, none of those games are in english. And you don't want to use untested maps in a tournament anyways. | ||
JWD
United States12607 Posts
Also, if you introduced these maps in the ladder stage, all the players would be quite familiar with them by the time elimination stages began. If we want TSL to play like a major Korean tournament, we have to include new, foreigner-made maps - the new strategies and game styles that result from new maps are half the reason I look forward to new Starleagues! | ||
alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
On June 08 2008 06:00 fight_or_flight wrote: Maybe in the 3rd TSL they could try to experiment, for example, allowing a new foreign map to be used in the ladder. If its imbalanced then people simply wouldn't play it. Then maybe if its successful enough it could be included in the elimination rounds by mutual agreement of the players. I don't have a problem with korean maps, and don't think are a rehash. First of all, none of those games are in english. And you don't want to use untested maps in a tournament anyways. lol whats that bout english?? didnt get that point anyway the thing that anotak has repeatedly said is to test the maps through a strict procedure anyway so if that's successful there'll be no problems! :D yayy i'm all for the foreigner maps! | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
but that's impossible. even in the hevaily tested kor maps. | ||
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
On June 08 2008 08:32 thedeadhaji wrote: if balance can be ensured. but that's impossible. even in the hevaily tested kor maps. Balance isn't even close to ensured on the Korean maps, exactly.. But to be honest I don't think the koreans tested their maps very thoroughly at all, Demon's Forest for example was blatantly bad from the start. I don't know why everyone is regarding their testing procedures so highly. | ||
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ScarFace
United States1175 Posts
Edit: Remember everyone, the op only suggested one, maybe two new additions every season. Who knows what the intervals between seasons will even be? Three months? Six? A year? It all depends on timing and funding. Its not like you have to practice shittons new maps, strong Foreign players can volunteer their time to practice the maps, slowly they will be weeded down to one or two, and the most balanced will be picked. They don't have to be complex maps, they can follow the same general pattern of simplistic [but successful] maps of the past. The difference of course, is that they will be our maps. It will add some uniqueness and pride to the community. Besides, gaming on a professional level is not possible outside of Korea-now- but the process of taking yourselves seriously has to start somewhere, if that is to ever happen. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
The only thing stopping foreigners from testing their maps is time and effort. And money, and excellent players to test our maps extensively for us. Yes, exactly. There's not exactly a real solution to that. First season and probably for many seasons after that, maps should follow a pretty strict no-gimmicks rule. Standard mineral placement, few neutral buildings, no neutral darktemplar blocking paths, none of that stuff. With this and a very strict testing system like the one I mentioned... things could go pretty well. That's retarded =/ You want to play maps like Faoi? If we're not going to make unique maps, why make our own maps at all? Demon's Forest for example was blatantly bad from the start. Not true. Obviously they knew about the bugging of units in the middle of the map, but they wanted players to overcome that like they overcame maps with bad pathing. It was a risk that ended up being received badly. Also, when we saying testing, we're including the games played in leagues too. All the maps in TSL 1 were proven to give entertaining and interesting games, even if they did sometimes slightly favour one race over another in certain matchups. That said, we should try something like this with a league less prestigious, maybe a charity league. I'd rather see an idea like this prove it won't crash and burn there than in something as valuable as TSL. | ||
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