EPT[N] Sicilian Mafia Style
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
| ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
/in | ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
| ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
| ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
| ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
| ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
| ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
| ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
Hey y'all! I know I've been waiting for this game for a long time and I'm sure you all have as well. This game is somewhat non-standard, so there are a few things I'd like to address before we get started. On May 29 2013 12:27 Ver wrote: This is a closed setup Because this setup is closed, we have to make sure we do not make any unnecessary assumptions that center around speculation about the roles. Speculation is largely a waste of time given the amount of information provided in the OP, so we should stick to the basics. Additionally, we definitely should not be directing blue roles that we aren't even sure exist. Big Plays: If you think of some mastermind play that you think will fool mafia and confuse them, please don't use it. As brilliant as your plan may be, a closed setup has too many variables to account for and your plan could potentially confuse the town more than the mafia. Lying: If you are town, DO NOT lie. If all of town follows this rule, we can separate town and mafia into two distinct categories, liars and non-liars, respectively. We can lynch liars without fear of them flipping town AS LONG AS every town member strictly adheres to this rule. The Traitor: On May 29 2013 12:27 Ver wrote: All the town knows is this: 5 Mafia 1 Traitor 5 mafia, 1 traitor. Anyone up for some math? 5/24=0.20833333333 (5+1)/24=0.25 The one traitor adds about 4% to the strength of the team. As the game progresses, the denominator gets lower. Assuming we don't get insanely lucky, the percentage of mafia will increase over time. The influence of the traitor will start to compound and he will become a greater threat. We obviously need to keep an eye out for the traitor, but specifically hunting for him in the early days will be a waste of resources, in my opinion. How to catch the traitor! The traitor might get antsy and try to drop a few hints for mafia to pick up (to try and join them). We need to stay vigilant to find these subtle hints and make sure we call them out as soon as we see them. PMs: I'm thinking that we should choose our best town reads as PM targets. I'm somewhat unfamiliar with this mechanic, so if a more experienced player can give his thoughts about it, that would be great. This goes without saying, but remember to choose your pm targets wisely! This means NOT wasting both of your choices on Day 1 based on weak reads. Post Count Limit: We have a moderately strict 20 post limit during day. This means absolutely NO one-liner posts. Try to make longer posts that include multiple quotes. Respond to multiple points simultaneously. If you want to give your reads, do it all in one post. We need people to also save posts to ensure they can respond to accusations should they be accused. Plan ahead. Most of this stuff should be obvious, so I'm not going to beat a dead horse. Alright, that's all I've got for now. Let's have a good, clean game. GL HF! | ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 16 2013 13:16 Oatsmaster wrote: In other news, Firmtofu pre typed that and its not alignment indicative. I didn't. I typed it up after the game started and I read my role. I don't think it makes any difference either way. It should not be considered alignment indicative regardless. On July 16 2013 13:17 Hapahauli wrote: 1) What are your views on PM usage? How and when should they be used? 2) Are there any policy lynches around the posting-limit we should consider? (i.e. if someone doesn't use all their posts, they get lynched, etc) 3) Who are players you feel you can read very well and reliably in this game? 1) As I mentioned in my last post, I am unfamiliar with this mechanic. I think you should use PMs on your strong town reads. You should give priority to town reads that you personally have that others may not necessarily have. If you fear they will be NK'd, then avoids masoning them IMO. 2) I think the lurker policy lynch is always a good one to consider. Although they may not necessarily be the best lynch, they do serve the purpose of setting up the lategame well. We don't want our endgame to suffer from inactivity and these types of lynches should prevent that. Perhaps we could also consider policy lynching people who repeatedly post one-liners. That sort of behavior is largely non-beneficial and we should send a message to everyone that we are not going to tolerate it. 3) I cannot read any of the players in this game well. I am against the use of meta in general, so even if I could read them based on past play, I would never make a case on them based on it. On July 16 2013 13:22 Oatsmaster wrote: Firm Tofu, why are you even bringing up 'hunting' the traitor? Are there specific traitor tells? What??? No, nothing specific. I'm saying that if you see something suspicious, feel free to bring it up. I wanted to establish an open environment to allow town to speak freely. If anyone has any specific ways to find the traitor, please enlighten us! | ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 16 2013 13:43 VayneAuthority wrote: I'm not going to be masoning anyone just as a heads up. Don't like PMs, never have. only post I see as scummy so far is firmtofu's. Dude is like explicitly telling the traitor what not to do in his first post so he doesn't get caught or something. Fishy as hell You actually bring up a very good point. Although it was not my intention to direct the traitor's behavior, this is a potential indirect effect of my post. However, if the traitor avoids dropping clues about his alignment, then wouldn't this hurt mafia? Unless the mafia was more concerned about the traitor's life than one of their own, I think they would be willing to take the risk of having the traitor drop some clues for them to find. On July 16 2013 13:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote: If you don't respond to people who mason you I'm probably going to push your lynch. But you bring up an excellent point. FirmTofu's post is seemingly designed to seem as helpful as possible (to the point that it looks pre-written) but I can't imagine town is very fixated on the traitor at all. FirmTofu, explain what you're thinking and was your post pre-written? Are you just a statistics/setup nerd that always looks at the game that way? I don't necessarily find it extra suspicious that you're describing the ideal play of the traitor, this is certainly something the traitor and everybody else probably knows, but it's the most substantial part of your initial post and it's an alarming fixation. No, I mentioned in my previous post that it was not pre-written. [QUOTE]On July 16 2013 13:48 slOosh wrote: Hey guys. If people are unsure about how to mason, they should just avoid using it. Worst thing we can do is have all the discussion going on in PM land and nothing to go off of someone's alignment other than their mason's read on them. /QUOTE] While Vayne made a personal choice not to mason, you seem to be directing people to avoid using it. Do you have an inherent motivation to discourage people from masoning? A discussion in "PM land" doesn't prevent discussions from happening in thread. I can't see why you would recommend people not to mason at all. | ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 16 2013 13:54 DoctorHelvetica wrote: If you don't respond to people who mason you I'm probably going to push your lynch. But you bring up an excellent point. FirmTofu's post is seemingly designed to seem as helpful as possible (to the point that it looks pre-written) but I can't imagine town is very fixated on the traitor at all. FirmTofu, explain what you're thinking and was your post pre-written? Are you just a statistics/setup nerd that always looks at the game that way? I don't necessarily find it extra suspicious that you're describing the ideal play of the traitor, this is certainly something the traitor and everybody else probably knows, but it's the most substantial part of your initial post and it's an alarming fixation. I'm a bit of a statistics buff, so in a way, yes. I don't see why drawing attention to the role would make me mafia/traitor. If anything, scum would be trying to draw attention away from these types of roles. On July 16 2013 14:00 Hapahauli wrote: I think FT is the traitor from that first post. Usually Traitors try to "breadcrumb" their roles somehow in the thread so that they can either communicate with the mafia or be added to the mafia QT (through whatever mechanic). I'm not 100% on the read ofcourse (too early in the game to be certain about that stuff), but it's a remarkably constructed post and one that has a very alarming fixation on a specific role. Otherwise, no scum-reads. You make a valid point, but there is a flaw in this reasoning. As I mentioned in my response to DrH, scum would be trying to avoid drawing attention to their own roles. There is a guilt factor that many scum fall victim to. People who are uncomfortable with lying try to avoid any discussion that could potentially link them to their role. This is my why scum generally try to avoid talking to their teammates in thread and generally avoid talking about their roles. I'm hoping we can move away from this speculative discussion and pursue something more meaningful and concrete. | ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 16 2013 14:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote: @FirmTofu, you ignored the important part of my question which means I'm voting for you. Why are you fixated on the traitor right now? We all know what the traitor/should shouldn't do. What the town should do is lynch anyone who plays like scum or plays like the traitor, this is obvious right? But the fact that you're already thinking about the traitor more than anything else is a decidedly non-town way to think. My fixation isn't a fixation. We know 1 thing. There are 6 mafia and 1 traitor. I was drawing attention to the only concrete information that the OP gave us. Would you rather have me talk about easy town cred bullshit that is in all of the guides all over TL? I was offering my perspective into a topic that is specifically relevant to the game at hand instead of reciting standard procedure that town should follow. The fact that I'm thinking about the traitor is far from non-town. Let's address what I actually said shall we? On July 16 2013 13:05 FirmTofu wrote: We obviously need to keep an eye out for the traitor, but specifically hunting for him in the early days will be a waste of resources, in my opinion. I said let's NOT focus our attention on the traitor on the early days of the game because the discussion would be largely unhelpful. This means that I'm not thinking about the traitor more than anything else, in fact, I'm trying to do the exact opposite. I find it rather troublesome that you insist on continuing a discussion on such a speculative topic and would go as far as to place a vote on me for such trivial things. Are you looking for a reason to vote or are you looking for scum? I'll be watching you closely. On July 16 2013 14:17 Oatsmaster wrote: Tofu, have you played with a traitor mechanic before? If so, what did you gain from that? If not, why are you focusing on the traitor? Hapa is playing incredibly oddly. Incredibly. Do you wish for us to lynch the traitor Hapa? Like why would Firmtofu as the traitor talk all about the traitor? Seems a bit obvious. A bit. Also how do you not have at least 1 guy leaning scum. Gut read hapa. GUT. Or do you not have a guy? Everyone, name 1 scumread. OR DIE! No, I have not played with the traitor mechanic on this site before. I have played with it on another site, but it was considerably different. I don't think I can draw parallels between my experience in those games. I'm focusing the traitor for reasons I mentioned in my above responses^. My best scumread is slOosh. He still has not answered my question. Obviously a weak read right now, so take it with a grain of salt. | ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
I am confused as to why you pursue Vayne, who made a personal choice not to utilize PMs, but you fail to pursue slOosh, who is making a concerted effort to discourage people from utilizing PMs. This disconnect is indicative between a possible scum team between you two. | ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 16 2013 14:50 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Hey teambuddy slo0sh, why don't you do this thing and then I'll attack somebody else for doing the same thing then we'll win for sure! I didn't read his post. I would prefer if you wouldn't waste posts to be sarcastic. I would like to draw a bit of attention onto these two scumbags as well. On July 16 2013 12:49 kholly wrote: I think this is trap. Therefore, my day 1 lynch recommendation will be DoctorHelvetica. On July 16 2013 12:35 kushm4sta wrote: sup They pop in, say hi, and promptly leave. I'm left asking, "Why...?" There are still plenty of people who haven't started talking yet, so I'm not going to speculate on their roles. Let's make sure we give everyone some consideration, especially the lurkers. | ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 16 2013 14:55 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Oh I found his post, yeah he's not saying no one should mason nor is he saying he is refusing to mason which is a really dumb thing to do. Now you're defending Vayne by using misdirection/misinterpretation! Interesting! slo0sh - don't use mason if you don't know what you're doing. I disagree but there have been terrible consequences for this (coagulation claiming medic to me day 1 of Salem Mafia, me outing every single blue to the godfather in the same game, etc.) slo0sh is in the SAME post talking about how PMs are invaluable for forming scumhunting circles which is a townie way of looking at it. A single sentence in a single post being a "concerted effort to discourage PMing" is really REALLY misrepresenting what sloOsh is saying in a completely obvious way. I have so many problems with this post. It is a completely disproportionate reaction to my prod. Let's address the points first. You say I'm defending Vayne. This is not true. I was pointing out the inconsistencies in your behavior. You accuse Vayne, but you aren't addressing a similar scum-tell in another player. This indicates that you are picking and choosing your targets, instead of actually scumhunting. My point had nothing to do with the topic of PM's, I was addressing your behavior specifically and how you are specifically ignoring the slOosh while pursuing Vayne for reasons that should implicate both of them. This post of yours is digging you into a deeper hole. You made a sarcastic post saying you never even read slOosh's post, but you come back and vehemently say he is a town read for you. If you never actually read slOosh's post, why do have such an aggressive, belligerent response to my question? As someone who had never read slOosh's post, you sure sound like you formed a very strong position on him. I find this all too convenient. I think you lied about not having read his post. Am I correct? | ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 16 2013 15:36 VisceraEyes wrote: ##Vote: DocHelvetica Every post he makes (and he's made a full 12 of his allotted 20 posts at the time of writing) makes me vomit inside my mouth a little bit. I don't like anything he's doing. He's not pressuring anyone, he's wasting posts throwing shit at Vayne. I don't even know yet what I think about Vayne, but if the remaining 40% of his posts don't blow me out of the water, I want to kill Doc H today. As much as I dislike DrH, this post has absolutely no substance or reasoning. VE needs to explain his reads or he is as scummy as DrH, if not more scummy. On July 16 2013 17:16 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: I'm on my phone so I can't copy paste but a couple posts up this page FirmTofu reponds the correct way to DrH and VE responds to wrong way. Also yamato's last post was absolutely horrible. I will probably use both my masons D1 on people who I feel are town. I'm going to bed now. This is ridiculous. Why is yamato's last post horrible? I thought it was well reasoned and particularly useful in forming a read on DrH. Explain yourself. On July 16 2013 17:23 Oatsmaster wrote: FT's post is totally bullshit. FT says he isnt defending Vayne but slams DrH for the exact same thing he himself is doing.??? He seems overly concerned about people lying. Scumtell because no one intentionally lies and its easier to attack town on a supposed lie and not actual content. Also, he is saying that vayne and sloosh are saying similar things. They arent by far. Sloosh is saying dont use it if you dont know how to. Vayne is saying he WONT use it. Nope, totally different. One is intentionally playing badly(vayne), One is possibly bad advice but with limited masoning, Im inclined to agree with sloosh. I don't think you understood the purpose of my post. I wasn't defending Vanye. I wasn't "slamming" DrH. You are exaggerating my actions and making it sound as if I have DrH pegged as a confirmed scum read and am tunneling him at the time of writing that post. Please explain what it is that I am doing that DrH is also doing. I am pointing out inconsistencies in his behavior and he is defending slOosh and attacking Vayne. Our actions are not even remotely similar. Vayne and slOosh are saying very similar things but there is a subtle difference between their statements. Vayne is making a personal decision not to use PMs and slOosh is directing inexperienced players not to use PMs. While you may think Vayne's play is inferior, you cannot say he is intentionally playing badly. He could just as easily be town and think that PMs will screw up town more than help. That is a perfectly valid opinion for a town member to have. You may agree with slOosh and disagree with Vayne, but your agreement/disagreement tells you absolutely nothing about their alignment. Analyzing opinions is meaningless and that is exactly what you are doing. On July 16 2013 17:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: I think there is something you should all know. I am a pardoner. I tried to think how i could use my power in combination with PM's to it's full benefit and came into conclusion there is no way not to claim will help town. The pardoning can be done vai PM's to the hosts, i don't need to announce it in thread. There is nothing good coming out from me using it, only confusion and distraction, so i will not use my power ever. This makes me think scum have one too. rayn, can you please elaborate on what a pardoner is? I have no idea because I have never played with that role before. On July 16 2013 17:33 Malongo wrote: I cant believe I am the newbie here. ##Vote: Meapak_Ziphh I dont care if you go to bed, and your post was just too polarized for no reason. Another person who just pops in, votes with little to no justification, and leaves. This is getting tiresome. On July 16 2013 21:16 Oatsmaster wrote: wtf is this bullshit. Total fucking retardness. Malongo, Koshi and kholly, start playing the game. Kholly, why is DrH scum? Also there is a voting thread. Malongo, why is MZ being polarizing a scumtell? Koshi, why waste 5% of your limit on a useless post? Absolutely USELESS. Ok so scumteam is probably, VE, sloosh, FT and other dudes. Everyone else that has posted I think is town. Anyone that has strong disagreements for any of my reads, please explain why. You have not explained why anyone you listed is scum for you. You mentioned that, "FT's post is total bullshit", but that's about it. You even said that you agreed with slOosh's point about pms. How can you justify that scumteam considering I've had a row with slOosh already? It looks like you are just trying to accuse random people to establish some town cred. Some of your questions are hypocritical. You haven't really started playing the game and you waste plenty of posts being useless as well. On July 17 2013 00:54 slOosh wrote: I don't think they shouldn't form around one player, it's too easily countered and dangerous if they are scum. I was thinking wheels of, say three players, and then linking the wheels slowly. Still don't understand how you can build circles by masoning only scum reads though. What? I said if people are unsure, they should avoid it because it can cause more problems than be of benefit. How am I making a "concerted effort to discourage people from using PMs"? Show me where I said no one should mason. slOosh responded well to my question and I no longer wish to pursue him. He seems to speaking from opinion and his statements are not alignment indicative. On July 17 2013 03:27 gumshoe wrote: Drh pressured tofu, tofu responded, dry backed off tofu when he was satisfied with his answer. Regardless of what tofu did after these are the facts of drh's actions, drh could have easily left his accusation hanging in order not to look flip floppy. Instead he closed the matter for the moment. Doing so hurts his individual position but it is a boon for town because we're able to scratch off a pointless(from dh,s perspective) argument. This reads townie to me, does it mean he is 100 percent mega town? No of course not, but dropping the accusation seems silly for scum who want as many plot threads as possible And want to come off as strong. I actually see DrH's backing off as more of a scum move than a town one. Scum would be trying not to cause too much waves. They push people to appear townie, then back off if the pressure mounts to a considerable degree and they know they have no chance of winning a lynch on their target. I think this is exactly how DrH is playing the game right now. After having a bit of an argument with me, he decided that it would be difficult to get town to lynch me, so he backed off. Remember, in his pms to Oats he said "FirmTofu is confirmed scum". It sounds like he still wants me dead, but he is lying about how he feels about me so that I will stop pressuring him. I smell fear. I smell lies. I want blood. I want DrH to respond to all of my points against him now. He has been avoiding me for too long and my suspicion is starting to mount. | ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 17 2013 08:32 DoctorHelvetica wrote: DESPITE THIS - I think it's interesting that you chose to attack me after I defended you and the way you did is making me lean that you are town and this is just a bad misunderstanding, actually. Or I did. But your phrasing is odd in your latest post. It makes it seem like the fact that I backed off AT ALL is scummy to you. Why? Should you always tunnel the first person you vote for 100% of the time? Should you ignore a persons defense under every circumstance? If FT Is town, he knows he is town and he perceives his posts likely to be very townie. If FT defends himself from Player X who then says "ah, the way you defended yourself indicates you're town" why would FT then turn around to say "How suspicious that you think I'm town, you must be scum". If FT truly was town, wouldn't he accept that argument? If Player X (Me in this case) decides his defense is town-indicative (assuming FT is town) then player x is CORRECT and FT should feel as though his argument/defense was a success. Implying that it is scummy to defend you implies INHERENT GUILT. If FT is town then I was CORRECT to back off of him considering he put in the effort to defend himself, there can't possibly be anything scummy about that INHERENTLY but in his latest post he's not even referencing the context of my change of heart he's calling it scummy IN and OF itself. ^ a more succinct way of putting it. I'll wait for FT's explanation of this, because there is another aspect to his attack on me that differs from what Promethelax did although it's getting closer and closer to Prom's confirmed scum arguments so I'll just have to wait. I wasn't accusing you because you were "defending" me. I was accusing you because I found you scummy. I'm sure you would expect me to back off because you backed off, but I didn't because I still had quite a few problems with your posts. This has absolutely nothing to do with inherent guilt. If you still think that, just read my reasons for WHY I'm accusing you and see if they make any sense from a town perspective. Ask yourself whether a townie who believed those points would simply back off just because the person he was accusing stopped accusing him. You still haven't addressed any of the posts where I ask you if you lied. You ignore a great number of my posts indicating you are uncomfortable with talking about them. I suspect that you DID lie, but I remain unsure as to whether you lied as scum or lied as town. I'm running out of posts, so I don't want to waste too many on a back-and-forth between DrH and myself. DrH, did you or did you not lie? If you did lie, explain why. If you didn't lie, explain why you took this long to respond about the lies. Someone who was innocent would not have avoided the question for this long. What is your view on the lying meta as town? Do you think we should policy lynch liars as town? Your answers to this post will determine whether or not my vote stays on you. | ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 17 2013 08:56 FirmTofu wrote: DrH, did you or did you not lie? If you did lie, explain why. If you didn't lie, explain why you took this long to respond about the lies. Someone who was innocent would not have avoided the question for this long. What is your view on the lying meta as town? Do you think we should policy lynch liars as town? Your answers to this post will determine whether or not my vote stays on you. On July 17 2013 08:59 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I backed off of you because the only reason I was suspicious of you to begin with was because of your post about the traitor. That is when I backed off. I became suspicious of you later because of your posts regarding sloOsh/other things (this was AFTER I had said your defense about the traitor talk was adequately town) but didn't talk about it in thread because I had already used half my posts. That's not lying. Alright. I think any rational townsperson can see how inadequate DrH's answer is. He didn't answer the majority of the questions. He uses vague terminology like, "other things" to describe why he is suspicious of me. He hasn't even addressed the actual lie(s) that I was talking about. If he wants a chance at redemption, he is going to answer these SPECIFIC questions. Stop avoiding them. 1) Why did you tell Oats, "FirmTofu is confirmed scum." when you backed off of me? We know that you had this conversation after you backed off, but before you started flinging shit at me. I want to know why. 2) Why did you pretend as if you didn't see slOosh's post and then backtrack and defend him as if he was 100% confirmed town? A townie in this position would not be so quick to deduce slOosh's alignment based on one post, so why did you feel the need to defend him so vehemently? On July 17 2013 09:11 raynpelikoneet wrote: Hey FirmTofu, i see a difference in your posting behaviour before and after i posted my logs. Did you or did you not read them before posting after that? If you did not, why? I did not read the logs yet. I am running under a few time constraints so I am trying to choose the posts I read wisely. If I were to read your logs, I would not be able to address DrH's. The logs were rather long, so I figured I would read them later. I am unsure as to what "difference in posting behavior" you speak of, please elaborate. On July 17 2013 09:15 DoctorHelvetica wrote: 100% meta argument citing differences in FirmTofu's townish behaviors in NWM as opposed to this game. I'm not even sure how to respond to this. A good bit of it is just bullshit. I'm not defending myself more than accusing others. That is absolutely false. Just take a leap through my filter to see how many posts focus on accusations and how many focus on defending myself. Even if I were defending myself more than accusing others, I don't see this as particularly alignment indicative. Then he says 70% of a post isn't even about DrH, so it somehow makes me scummy. I fail to see how that's even remotely true. I like to talk about EVERYONE in the game. It isn't scummy to address multiple people in the same post. If anyone takes this meta argument seriously, I will be forced to look into you. This is actually absolutely ridiculous. I will not respond to any additional arguments that center around meta because I am fundamentally against using it to divine alignments. Any good player should know that meta is subject to WIFOM and is nearly always meaningless. | ||
|
FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 17 2013 15:41 yamato77 wrote: If you're all just going to ignore VE, I'd be absolutely fine lynching the useless filter of Meapak as well. He's certainly exceptional in how little he's actually playing the game of mafia. This is as close as he comes to actually posting reads. Given the already difficult nature of forming a consensus in a game like this and his rather lackadaisical approach to the game so far, I'm willing to believe he's mafia trying to hide among the other low-content players in the game. Plus, I always love lynching people who call my posts "horrible". I am willing to lynch VE, but I see DrH as the most optimal choice. Can you perhaps look into our conversations with one another and consider it? DrH has still not responded to my questions even though I have explicitly stated what I wanted him to answer. That, in itself, should be reason enough to warrant his lynch. | ||
| ||
