EPTSorry for my absence! Illness, work and general life stress took me very far out of the internet again and my annoying habit of disappearing without warning is hard to kick. Everything is fine now, enough for at least one or two mafia games
[N] Sicilian Mafia Style
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
Sorry for my absence! Illness, work and general life stress took me very far out of the internet again and my annoying habit of disappearing without warning is hard to kick. Everything is fine now, enough for at least one or two mafia games | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
What are we looking for? Odd player choices. PMs are our chance to put direct pressure on people we have suspicions of without going over our post limits. If someone is trying to influence your opinions/manipulate you via PM you need to call them out in thread. If someone uses PMs to buddy to you by telling you they have complete trust that you are town, that's a red alarm. I don't see why town needs to have a PM line with another townie like that. I think discussing the PM dynamics and any plans/thoughts regarding it is a good starting off point for this game. ALSO - Look out for those who waste their post limits on empty posts/spam then make an excuse later. For example - "I had some good points to make yesterday but I went over post limit before I wrote my case and....." | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
I disagree, at least I'm getting the ball rolling. The post limit and pm system are unique about this game, its a better way of digging at people's attitudes than random ads lurker votes. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
What do I have to gain by talking to a strong town read? If I need to make town sheep me, the best way to do that is by making constructive posts, right? The post limit makes it difficult for me to tunnel which is a huge part of how I scumhunt. Hapahauli's idea is good actually, for very meta familiar players. But what exactly is towns motivation to buddy? We should go out of our way to separate our play from scumtactics and buddying/clawing for towncred is an enormous part of scum behavior. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
But you bring up an excellent point. FirmTofu's post is seemingly designed to seem as helpful as possible (to the point that it looks pre-written) but I can't imagine town is very fixated on the traitor at all. FirmTofu, explain what you're thinking and was your post pre-written? Are you just a statistics/setup nerd that always looks at the game that way? I don't necessarily find it extra suspicious that you're describing the ideal play of the traitor, this is certainly something the traitor and everybody else probably knows, but it's the most substantial part of your initial post and it's an alarming fixation. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On July 16 2013 14:01 VayneAuthority wrote: Don't get me wrong, if for some strange fucking reason you want to mason me then go ahead and I will talk to you. I won't be using either of mine though. Could you direct me to a good town game of yours btw? never played with you so I want to see how you play Insane Mafia, TL Mafia LX, Salem Mafia. All games where I played well in the beginning but my play tends to taper out in a big way near the end of games. @FirmTofu, you ignored the important part of my question which means I'm voting for you. Why are you fixated on the traitor right now? We all know what the traitor/should shouldn't do. What the town should do is lynch anyone who plays like scum or plays like the traitor, this is obvious right? But the fact that you're already thinking about the traitor more than anything else is a decidedly non-town way to think. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
VayneAuthority - people are going to form mason circles in this game. Announcing your withdrawal to me only makes sense as a scum play. If you're town - you need to change your mind. If you are town and refuse to mason all you are doing is intentionally withholding information from yourself and potentially, the thread. This is bad. Regardless of whether or not you disagree/dislike mason as a MECHANIC, it is a primary mechanic in this game. Ideally, there are only two good reasons to avoid it: 1. You are a blue petrified of being fished/discovered. I find this very unlikely, blues tend to use PMs with townreads while laying low in the thread so they can push their night results or form town circles. Also, your play style seems aggressive and direct - you don't seem timid in thread as is typical of a blue role so I don't see this being the case. 2. You are a red who wants to avoid pressure/slips as much as possible, in the thread you have a lot more control. I don't necessarily like the idea of discussion happening that I'm not aware of but as a town player it doesn't scare me and I won't refuse to take advantage of it. Scum wants as much control and editing power over their thread presence as possible and to avoid pressure/direct contact as much as they can. You seem unusually confident in your pressure for Day 1 and you're already asking for meta reads, everything about that seems off to me. @FirmTofu - I think your defense seems very legitimate and natural, you're off my scumdar. However, it's not that you drew attention to the existence of the traitor, just the fact that it seemed to be at the top of your mind is off. Which is why I wanted you to clarify how you approach mafia in general, it makes perfect sense that the numerically/setup minded type of townies would be fixated on that from the beginning. An LSB/sandro type of player are the kinds of people who I wouldn't raise an eyebrow at for talking traitor, so thanks for that. @Oatsmaster - I see how that seems waffly, but I'm talking about two different things in bold. Actually three. Let me categorize them: Suspicious: 1. Posts that seem to be overly edited to seem really pro-town while doing nothing to find scum (this is way less suspicious int he first hour of Day 1 than any other time in the game. On Day 3 I might instantly vote someone for a post like that) 2. Early fixation on ideas that scum are more likely to be worried/thinking about than town. Not suspicious: 3. The idea that he is giving the traitor "advice". Any discussion about the traitor in thread (basically inevitable) is going to turn around to the ideal way to play the role, since arguments/discussions are usually framed around that idea. When people are accused of being scum cases revolve around our ideas of ideal town/scum play, as far as I am concerned this does not count in any way as passive advice and isn't really much of a point at all. and IDK hapa's meta. But I'm gonna cool it so I don't go over my post limit, I'll be more constructive later in the day with more information. For now: ##Vote: VayneAuthority I recommend masoning with me because it'll help me control my spam tendencies. If you're town we'll have a productive discussion. If you're not, I'll figure you out quickly. Win/Win. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On July 16 2013 14:27 VayneAuthority wrote: There is barely anything to go off of yet so I am pretty sure you just fell into an Oatsmaster trap. If you really do plan to pursue me then I would like to see some reasoning for future use. "Day 1 is a crapshoot so let's not talk about scumreads" you're acting very aggressively in this game so that seems like an odd thing to imply | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
I didn't read his post. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
slo0sh - don't use mason if you don't know what you're doing. I disagree but there have been terrible consequences for this (coagulation claiming medic to me day 1 of Salem Mafia, me outing every single blue to the godfather in the same game, etc.) slo0sh is in the SAME post talking about how PMs are invaluable for forming scumhunting circles which is a townie way of looking at it. A single sentence in a single post being a "concerted effort to discourage PMing" is really REALLY misrepresenting what sloOsh is saying in a completely obvious way. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On July 17 2013 06:00 layabout wrote: screw it I Shall go to the I am wondering why drh says we should share who we pm. Why does the thread need to know who you are talking to? I can only see how it helps mafia, for instance it lets them find and break any sort of town circle. If you typically live a long time in games it's worth holding onto a pm for later in the game. I think we all more or less know how to use pms but only share it with the thread if there is a clear benefit to do so- e.g. sharing a players unvoiced reads after they have died. This is not actually the case, right?It says everyone has 2 pms in the OP. I really want to kill vayne. Why sign up to a pm game if you are not going to use them? They benefit town the vast majority of the time. I made a mistake in not realizing he had said he would do that pre-game. As much as I hate it, it's not alignment indicative. The fact that you're regurgitating my old argument when the thread has moved wayyyyyyyyy past that is odd. I am wondering why drh says we should share who we pm. Why does the thread need to know who you are talking to? I can only see how it helps mafia, for instance it lets them find and break any sort of town circle. Personally, I want mafia PMing me, it only makes my job easier. The more interaction I have with scum the more likely I am to find them. @Koshi - Pardoner is a 100% anti-town role that should never ever be used. This is generally agreed to be the case. Typically, any time a pardoner uses his power for any reason he is lynched. @Hapa Why would he have any reason not to believe oats? I never came into the thread to tell him Oats was lying. After I backed off from FT I PM'd oatsmaster telling him I was almost completely certain that FT is scum but was biding my time for post limit reasons. Do you want him to waste a mason on me so he can just ask if I really called FT scum? The fact that Rayn is willing to post the logs like that seems very town to me or at least is evidence that he and oats aren't on the same team. It's ridiculous that you think that is suspicious, you're throwing out the weakest pressure I've ever seen but what is it even amounting to, do you want us to lynch Rayne? I'm about 90% sure he is town, my only other extremely strong townread is Gumshoe. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On July 17 2013 07:12 raynpelikoneet wrote: rofl, fu scum. I am now confirmed town. I am (was) in PM contact with Oats. gumshoe chose to mason me. Logs will be provided no later than N1. Both of gumshoe and Oats are town for sure, so is DrH. Possibly. I wouldn't rule out a mafia masonblocker cutting off someone they are in contact with if they plan to kill that person N1 or something like that. It's hard to say what it could mean in a closed setup, I don't want to make assumptions. I was very sure Oatsmaster is mafia up until now though. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
From his PM's with me, he's acting completely trusting of my alignment as town and even asking me for a lot of advice on his own reads/sheeping my opinions.Why would it then be suspicious for yamato77 to have the same read as him? But when he tells me he finds yamato suspicious he says this: So yamato's post. I dont like it. He starts off with the random shit about PMs for like no reason. I dunno why he used 1 paragraph when he couldve used 1 line. Then he says votes are important but analyses VE's post for content and meta rather than the vote. I dunno, he seems too sure that you are town. And yamato doesnt actually talk about the other shit like Vayne or FT, just hopping onto VE. It doesnt sit right with me. Thoughts? Sounds to me like he's looking for bait to make a case on yamato but his reasons are inconsistent between his conversations with me and his conversations with you. This reads to me not as a townie sharing his genuine opinions without fear, but attempts to buddy/gain cred. He has also been significantly more opinionated and confident in his PMs with me than he has in the thread. Oatsmaster can respond to this - if his explanation isn't adequate then I'll be posting a full case. If he ignores it I'm bandwagoning him. Right now I'm leaning: SNB Oatsmaster layabout baddie lurker 1 baddie lurker 2 ???? | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
Chain of events: I pressure FirmTofu originally for his traitor talk and his defense/explanation was adequately town. I announce this to the town. After announcing it, FirmTofu attacks me for pressuring Vayne without also pressuring sloOsh. I explain why I didn't feel what sloOsh did was particularly scummy (I use the language "it's more townie than what you've been doing") he then claims that I have a strong town read on sloOsh. At this point I dropped the argument. People are going pretty far back in my conversations with FT, I'm scared of hitting post limit so it's kind of hard to keep the thread informed of my train of thought. My mind moves quickly but I can't really show that in the thread. Yamato/Oatsmaster (my current masonbuddies) would have to vouch for what I'm thinking since they have more immediate access. If I'm going to become a central part of the lynch discussion, people should at least mason me more. Ah, can someone please give me 5 posts? This is going to be really hard for me. It was your post against sloOsh I think (?) that ultimately made me flip back into thinking you were scum. I talked to Oatsmaster about this: DrH: FirmTofu is in a position where he has a direct argument opportunity with me but wants to misdirect attention onto lurkers instead that's bad if he doesn't respond to what I said about sloOsh because somehow kushm4sta is more interesting then I'm absolutely voting for him. You DID respond to what I said about sloOsh, actually quite shortly after I told Oatsmaster how I feel (and he probed me to figure out what I meant first). Oatsmaster says: Explain the Direct argument opportunity, im not seeing that. DrH says: I called him out for misrepresenting sloOsh as a means to attack me AND defend Vayne and in the next post he ignores that and instead talks about lurkers. I think a townies reaction to my post would be defensive or at least expository but he doesn't argue with me OR explain what he was thinking, he just changes the subject. Oatsmaster says: Ok i agree about the firm tofu thing. like posting for the sake of posting and as scum, its hard to have a conversation with someone. DrH says: read his defense he said i have a STRONG townread on sloosh which is not what i said, i was only pointing out how he misrepresented what sloosh was saying. saying that something is non-scummy from a player is not laying out a strong townread. he's panicking. secondly, the fact that he misrepresented sloosh so brashly, it wasn't a misunderstanding he said that sloosh was making a strong effort to stop people from PMing which is ridiculous because in sloOsh's post he's actually encouraging people to PM, just encouraging people to do it in the way he feels is constructive Oatsmaster says: I do think that FT might be scum for the lying bit, no one in mafia intentionally lies and its a good way to get pressure on a townie that is a bit careless. Its a really agressive post by FT that is blatantly incorrect. Is it townie incorrect or scum being bad. I dunno man. I also wanted to call attention to a similar bit of exaggeration by FirmTofu which was calling sloOsh's advice a "consolidated effort" to STOP pming. That's a huge stretch. Ultimately people are going to do what they want to do, but I feel like sloOsh is saying "don't just waste your mason power if you don't know what you're doing". PMs can be a bit risky, so I can actually see where he is coming from even if I disagree in theory? It's hardly a consolidated effort and I hardly ever said I have a strong townread on him either. In fact, I don't have any read on sloOsh cause I haven't been focused on him this game. He hasn't jumped out and grabbed my attention. I actually see DrH's backing off as more of a scum move than a town one. Scum would be trying not to cause too much waves. They push people to appear townie, then back off if the pressure mounts to a considerable degree and they know they have no chance of winning a lynch on their target. What pressure? I got Oats to agree with me in like five seconds. Here's what happened: I think this guy is probably scum but I'm going to back away from the thread to avoid hitting post limit, see what happens the rest of the day and if he continues to be the scummiest in the thread then I'll push him. Because I was just avoiding post limit, I was sharing my thoughts with Oats who then shared them with Rayne who then posted them in the thread which then led people to think that I'm somehow a liar/wishy washy when in reality this is just a game where I can't afford to pop in and talk literally every time a thought crosses my brain. 20 posts a day. DESPITE THIS - I think it's interesting that you chose to attack me after I defended you and the way you did is making me lean that you are town and this is just a bad misunderstanding, actually. Or I did. But your phrasing is odd in your latest post. It makes it seem like the fact that I backed off AT ALL is scummy to you. Why? Should you always tunnel the first person you vote for 100% of the time? Should you ignore a persons defense under every circumstance? If FT Is town, he knows he is town and he perceives his posts likely to be very townie. If FT defends himself from Player X who then says "ah, the way you defended yourself indicates you're town" why would FT then turn around to say "How suspicious that you think I'm town, you must be scum". If FT truly was town, wouldn't he accept that argument? If Player X (Me in this case) decides his defense is town-indicative (assuming FT is town) then player x is CORRECT and FT should feel as though his argument/defense was a success. Implying that it is scummy to defend you implies INHERENT GUILT. Let me reference my argument against Promethelax in LX which was almost proof that he was scum: Attacking his defender is basically impossible logic for town. If prom was town then jj would have been correct, there would be nothing to criticize. If FT is town then I was CORRECT to back off of him considering he put in the effort to defend himself, there can't possibly be anything scummy about that INHERENTLY but in his latest post he's not even referencing the context of my change of heart he's calling it scummy IN and OF itself. ^ a more succinct way of putting it. I'll wait for FT's explanation of this, because there is another aspect to his attack on me that differs from what Promethelax did although it's getting closer and closer to Prom's confirmed scum arguments so I'll just have to wait. | ||
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