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Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
May 27 2013 14:15 GMT
#4
lol /in

already got a decent idea for how to play this
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-27 14:43:07
May 27 2013 14:42 GMT
#12
btw 2 protective roles + Town roleblocker could be really brutal for Scum to deal with. Outside of their KP the Rolecop role doesn't really help them here even with the early result reveal.

Maybe RNG every role right after the lynch, and allow Role Cop to send in his/her action during the day so they get result at the start of Night? Would still make it tough to deal with that Town setup but it's something.

random nature of 1 Scum being godfathered vs competent Alignment Cops is also tough

Either way I'm down for this just because it is interesting

On May 27 2013 23:36 kushm4sta wrote:
everyone will claim their role though because there's no reason for town not to


Same thing I was thinking.
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
May 27 2013 14:47 GMT
#14
Well after modding Carnival Cruise I'm sure you know why I don't trust people to send in Night Actions

Looks Town favored but I guess Scum will have to work a bit harder with claims and day play to avoid the random worst case scenario. Ah well lets get this show on the road!
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-27 15:11:00
May 27 2013 15:08 GMT
#19
On May 27 2013 23:56 prplhz wrote:
can't eduardo just claim something that one of his teammates got?


yes, but it isn't about 1 night of claims itself. Since the roles are always "live" the Town can collectively vote on someone to be investigated in the case of an Alignment Cop.

The Town will all claim the next day with result of their actions. Say a NK is missing - the doctor and Vet don't care about not being informed. They just speak up on what happened. In the Doc's case it most likely confirms a Town player (barring Scum taking a chance to shoot one of their own members). Since the roles get randomized again next night they don't need to fear dying and depriving the Town of a Power Role

Town does this at the start of every day. Even with Scum getting the power roles the Town isn't concerned with their claims. All they need is a decent pool of suspects before Scum KP takes out the thinkers and investigate down the list and take chances with the RNG due to higher numbers.

ETA: Just to be thorough that "live" means barring getting hit by Scum KP. There are other interesting scenarios that exist but I'd rather not get into all that theorycrafting. This is going to be fun either way.
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
May 27 2013 16:26 GMT
#31
this game has the potential for so much rage
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
May 27 2013 22:38 GMT
#55
On May 28 2013 05:16 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2013 01:14 Dandel Ion wrote:
If it's easier to understand, just think of the Nbobo as an instant Rolecop that only gets "power" or "no power" back, not the actual roles.
I thought that was apparant.


If you really want you could probably use it during the day too, i don't think I've explicitly forbidden it. It's just way useless because nobody has powers during the day.


And he's called what he's called because I'm terrible at making up names.

Why doesn't Nbobo get the actual role? That just makes the role rather useless. Scum probably doesn't want to shoot the roleblocker or the godfather. They DEFINITELY don't want to shoot the veteran. Having Nbobo reveal roles seems like a necessity for this to be useful.


this actually is part of the reason it is Town favored. Scum can't risk losing the roleblocker or miller/gf roles . But we'll see when the game starts.
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
May 28 2013 01:45 GMT
#62
Dandel I think lynching to remove roles from the pool would make it a bit more neutral. Scum can't counterclaim in this setup. The RNG has a lot of power in who wins and loses, and it's mostly in Town's favor.
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
May 28 2013 02:06 GMT
#64
If Scum can't counterclaim a role then how do they get rid of it without shooting? All claims can be taken at face value during the day since the setup is open. Add in 2 roles that Scum don't want to lose and they have less options to advance their win condition than Town.

Scum will rely on the RNG much more heavily than Town who can all keep claiming every day. If Scum KP drops to 1 Town collectively agree that every night the roleblocker and the Cop claim and they decide who to investigate.

How does Scum deal with this potential problem?
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-28 02:47:13
May 28 2013 02:39 GMT
#66
Yes that's the thing - there are no counter claims. Scum can't CC in the setup because the roles won't be taken from the pool. Scum lose a powerful option to stopping the Town here. Every claim is taken at face value now because the Town does not care if it is Scum making it - the role still lives on.

If roles can be lynched Scum at least have the option of counter claiming Cops or Doctors. The game can hit "follow the cop" scenario once Scum KP = 1. Without 5 or more Scum that isn't a far-fetched scenario.

ETA: Game breaking scenarios:

Once Scum KP hits 1 the Cop claims. Medic protects him. Roleblocker claims.

A.) The Scum team can't hit the cop so they are left with looking for the doctor. Since the roles are random every night they have to get lucky and hope they get doctor themselves. There are no good power role hunting heuristics available since who gets the doctor role switches all the time. Scum clearly don't want to kill the roleblocker with only 1 KP as they lose the potential to stop a claimed Cop. They are at the mercy of the RNG heavily.

Every day the Town tells the Doctor to claim. If the Doctor does not claim they know one of the people not claiming was Scum. This is the only option they have to deal with the Cop - pure RNG of getting the role. Otherwise the cop is unstoppable.

B.) With the roleblocker claiming they can choose to RB anyone but the Cop. A roleblocked Cop = roleblocker is Scum. So that option is out of play for them. Scum would need to get roleblocker, hit the medic and shoot the cop most likely through random investigation with their RoleCop. Once again they are at the mercy of the RNG.

No matter what path it takes the Town can ignore the RNG and have everyone claim as it is the most ProTown thing to do. The Scum team's options are limited. Without help from the RNG its a game of numbers.
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
June 04 2013 01:48 GMT
#151
Dandel said he changed Scum KP so the plan is a bit harder to cheese with but the beginning stages are still doable. We should still claim after night is over and report results.
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
June 04 2013 02:02 GMT
#160
On June 04 2013 10:56 Oatsmaster wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2013 10:55 Stutters695 wrote:
Well it's obviously a secondary strategy behind just catching scum but I don't see any reason not to report after each night.


How does it help town.


read the OP? The powers get returned to the pool the next day.
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
June 04 2013 02:11 GMT
#167
On June 04 2013 11:04 Oatsmaster wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2013 11:02 Ace wrote:
On June 04 2013 10:56 Oatsmaster wrote:
On June 04 2013 10:55 Stutters695 wrote:
Well it's obviously a secondary strategy behind just catching scum but I don't see any reason not to report after each night.


How does it help town.


read the OP? The powers get returned to the pool the next day.


Why doesnt the cop just claim???
Why all the roles????
Why are you not answering my question


If Night KP is stopped we'd want the medic claim yo nearly confirm the person as Town. Likewise with a roleblocker. The original plan was based on Scum with 1 KP but with it easier for them to maintain 2 it's a bit harder. Either way there is no downside to claiming the role and who we targeted in the night.
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
June 04 2013 02:16 GMT
#169
On June 04 2013 11:09 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 28 2013 11:39 Ace wrote:
Yes that's the thing - there are no counter claims. Scum can't CC in the setup because the roles won't be taken from the pool. Scum lose a powerful option to stopping the Town here. Every claim is taken at face value now because the Town does not care if it is Scum making it - the role still lives on.

If roles can be lynched Scum at least have the option of counter claiming Cops or Doctors. The game can hit "follow the cop" scenario once Scum KP = 1. Without 5 or more Scum that isn't a far-fetched scenario.

ETA: Game breaking scenarios:

Once Scum KP hits 1 the Cop claims. Medic protects him. Roleblocker claims.

A.) The Scum team can't hit the cop so they are left with looking for the doctor. Since the roles are random every night they have to get lucky and hope they get doctor themselves. There are no good power role hunting heuristics available since who gets the doctor role switches all the time. Scum clearly don't want to kill the roleblocker with only 1 KP as they lose the potential to stop a claimed Cop. They are at the mercy of the RNG heavily.

Every day the Town tells the Doctor to claim. If the Doctor does not claim they know one of the people not claiming was Scum. This is the only option they have to deal with the Cop - pure RNG of getting the role. Otherwise the cop is unstoppable.

B.) With the roleblocker claiming they can choose to RB anyone but the Cop. A roleblocked Cop = roleblocker is Scum. So that option is out of play for them. Scum would need to get roleblocker, hit the medic and shoot the cop most likely through random investigation with their RoleCop. Once again they are at the mercy of the RNG.

No matter what path it takes the Town can ignore the RNG and have everyone claim as it is the most ProTown thing to do. The Scum team's options are limited. Without help from the RNG its a game of numbers.


So what happens in scenario A when the doctor doesn't claim? If everyone plays innocent we have a dead cop and still hidden mafia. Same in B, if mafia RB'd the cop.

I.E. we know there's a scum holding the role but we don't know who is holding it and is therefore scum, hence it doesn't break the game.



It wouldn't kill us outright but it would be an anti-town move not to do so. Especially if a hit is stopped. If no one claims we'll just take the actual claimers as more likely Town than not. But once again it would be really stupid of us not to claim.

If Scum RB cop same thing - we just have a narrower pool of suspects to look at. We'll take that small win in a random bad scenario happening every time.



Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
June 04 2013 02:17 GMT
#170
On June 04 2013 11:13 Oatsmaster wrote:
Ok sounds good.

Ace whose scum?


Don't know yet
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
June 04 2013 02:29 GMT
#172
we could randomly start voting people off and see who goes apeshit
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
June 04 2013 02:42 GMT
#175
On June 04 2013 11:30 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2013 11:16 Ace wrote:
On June 04 2013 11:09 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
On May 28 2013 11:39 Ace wrote:
Yes that's the thing - there are no counter claims. Scum can't CC in the setup because the roles won't be taken from the pool. Scum lose a powerful option to stopping the Town here. Every claim is taken at face value now because the Town does not care if it is Scum making it - the role still lives on.

If roles can be lynched Scum at least have the option of counter claiming Cops or Doctors. The game can hit "follow the cop" scenario once Scum KP = 1. Without 5 or more Scum that isn't a far-fetched scenario.

ETA: Game breaking scenarios:

Once Scum KP hits 1 the Cop claims. Medic protects him. Roleblocker claims.

A.) The Scum team can't hit the cop so they are left with looking for the doctor. Since the roles are random every night they have to get lucky and hope they get doctor themselves. There are no good power role hunting heuristics available since who gets the doctor role switches all the time. Scum clearly don't want to kill the roleblocker with only 1 KP as they lose the potential to stop a claimed Cop. They are at the mercy of the RNG heavily.

Every day the Town tells the Doctor to claim. If the Doctor does not claim they know one of the people not claiming was Scum. This is the only option they have to deal with the Cop - pure RNG of getting the role. Otherwise the cop is unstoppable.

B.) With the roleblocker claiming they can choose to RB anyone but the Cop. A roleblocked Cop = roleblocker is Scum. So that option is out of play for them. Scum would need to get roleblocker, hit the medic and shoot the cop most likely through random investigation with their RoleCop. Once again they are at the mercy of the RNG.

No matter what path it takes the Town can ignore the RNG and have everyone claim as it is the most ProTown thing to do. The Scum team's options are limited. Without help from the RNG its a game of numbers.


So what happens in scenario A when the doctor doesn't claim? If everyone plays innocent we have a dead cop and still hidden mafia. Same in B, if mafia RB'd the cop.

I.E. we know there's a scum holding the role but we don't know who is holding it and is therefore scum, hence it doesn't break the game.



It wouldn't kill us outright but it would be an anti-town move not to do so. Especially if a hit is stopped. If no one claims we'll just take the actual claimers as more likely Town than not. But once again it would be really stupid of us not to claim.

If Scum RB cop same thing - we just have a narrower pool of suspects to look at. We'll take that small win in a random bad scenario happening every time.



But it wouldn't be gamebreaking like you said it would be. Hypothetically if I'm scum and me or my other scum (since 2 scum = 1 KP) roll the Doctor, we can shoot the Cop, and if we play as townily as possible we can claim either of the other roles later on and play along with town plan. Assuming we can survive the day we shoot the cop, we simply blend in afterwards and win by pure attrition.

I agree that claiming does help town, but scum can still pull the situation to their advantage and win so it helps them a bit too.

Guess it all comes down to the RNG after all. Greater probability of townies getting X role, so I guess it does benefit town after all.


Once Scum KP dropped to 1 = Cop can claim at night, roleblocker claims at night. If RB doesn't claim we know he is Scum. Match that up with previous innocent investigations = Scum have limited moves. They can't counterclaim anything either. So it becomes a game of numbers which the Town will win.

IF the Scum roll the doctor it isn't as bad as you think. We'd still know where they are. That's why I said for the Scum to succeed it would take the RNG to make them lucky whereas the Town can safely ignore it. That's how it was game breaking.

Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
June 04 2013 15:15 GMT
#207
##vote WaveofShadow
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
June 04 2013 15:28 GMT
#210
not yet. Game seems so blase' right now
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
June 04 2013 16:51 GMT
#218
Every claim is going to be taken at face value anyway so there won't be anything to base off reactions.
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
June 04 2013 16:56 GMT
#220
oh, well of course

I was thinking someone would be like "that claim is bullshit!" then we have to force people to read the OP. Again.
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
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