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I was thinking, in the early-midgame marines are the mainly needed to dps against zealots right? well here is my thinking, replace those marines with hellbats and dps against the lots faster.
my current TvP strat
10 depot
12 rax 2 marines before reactor
13 start a depot (to finish wall off) pull that scv and use it as a scout
15 gas
16 OC
expand
20-ish bunker at natural
at 100 gas factory - 2 widow mines - tech lab
after factory starport - 1 medivac - tech lab
attack with a bunch of marines 2 widow mines and a medivac
while this attack is happening get 2 more rax and an e bay get weapons +1 and tech switch the 2 rax to the 2 fresh made tech labs and get stim/combat shields
from here its MMM after adding a reactor to the starport
however what i propose is to tech switch the reactor on the barracks for the factory and make another tech lab on the rax and make 3 marauders and 2 hellbats/widow mines at a time.
it seems to me that this composition would be quite powerful in the midgame where drop play is so crucial and small pack style attacks are so powerful. then you can transition by adding more reactored barracks and getting lategame MMM with hellbats still because zealots become more prevalent then.
what are your thoughts on this?
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On April 14 2013 02:57 Ozlo wrote:
I was thinking, in the early-midgame marines are the mainly needed to dps against zealots right? well here is my thinking, replace those marines with hellbats and dps against the lots faster.
my current TvP strat
10 depot
12 rax 2 marines before reactor
13 start a depot (to finish wall off) pull that scv and use it as a scout
15 gas
16 OC
expand
20-ish bunker at natural
at 100 gas factory - 2 widow mines - tech lab
after factory starport - 1 medivac - tech lab
attack with a bunch of marines 2 widow mines and a medivac
while this attack is happening get 2 more rax and an e bay get weapons +1 and tech switch the 2 rax to the 2 fresh made tech labs and get stim/combat shields
from here its MMM after adding a reactor to the starport
however what i propose is to tech switch the reactor on the barracks for the factory and make another tech lab on the rax and make 3 marauders and 2 hellbats/widow mines at a time.
it seems to me that this composition would be quite powerful in the midgame where drop play is so crucial and small pack style attacks are so powerful. then you can transition by adding more reactored barracks and getting lategame MMM with hellbats still because zealots become more prevalent then.
what are your thoughts on this?
I think it was Last? Who did this against huk. Went into a 3 base timing of hell bat marauder viking with some medivacs to close the game. Worked really well.
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I've been testing this in a unit tester. and it seems that this composition punches above its weight class without micro.though i dont know what forcefields will enter into the equation
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There is a Hellbat-drop build order which includes 2 gases (13, 19), armory and production of 4 hellbats after 4 hellions or mines. This build also includes reactored starport for fast 2 medivacs to drop the 4 hellbats.
I think you can transition well from this into marauder hellbat viking. That is if you don't kill him immediately.
(basically add CC while dropping and add more rax with techlabs)
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about an hour ago, ForGG did this to Grubby. While Grubby had somewhat of an advantage of coming out ahead of early skirmishes and harassment with MSC recall he could storm all he wanted, the power of a lot of medivacs healing marauders and hellbats was too much for him. ForGG just took the storms, healed through, and still won the engagement to cancel Grubbys third. Then about two minutes later he was back and facetanked about 7+ storms without much micro yet still won easily with pretty much only hellbats + marauders + medivacs. Yes, he was pretty far ahead at that point, but with so many storms hitting really good I would have expected the fight to be at least close. Turns out hellbats destroy Zealots, and without the meatshield everything else melts to marauders.
it is a truly fearsome combination (although it is worth mentioning that he did not go pure marauders + hellbats, got quite some marines early on and still mixed in a few later, of which none survived the massive storms)
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Tried it now (master). It worked quite well. I have had some issues with TvP recently so I gonna use it now. It seems very strong.
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On April 14 2013 07:01 AyaaLa wrote:
Tried it now (master). It worked quite well. I have had some issues with TvP recently so I gonna use it now. It seems very strong.
Exactly what did you try? My plan or the playstyle in general?
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i had ok success with hellbat-marine in the hots beta.
i don't think you need marauders unless he goes like pure stalker collusi.
ghost and vikings are obviously needed... if you are gonna go marauder hellbat medivac ONLY then he can just make 6 collusi.
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Would it be better to get vehicle plating if you're incorporating hellbats into your TvP? I don't really know any of the stats but it seems that you might get more utility out of vehicle plating when you have three units that benefit from it.
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Would it be advisable to just switch all the reactor rax into tech lab rax and built facts/starpots on them? Seems like it's worth a shot.
The only problem I can see with this is if Protoss transitions into skytoss, but that is really hard for toss to do so I don't think it's worth fretting over
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even if they do, you can make vikings and mines. not to mention that tech lab barracks can make marines too.
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Dragon has done this alot with succes (armycomp that is)
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This sounds awesome in theory. Anyone got a pro BO for it?
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what i posted is the TvP build flash used in the winter championships. though the hellbat marauder was my own adaptation 
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Ive been thinking about this and while it sounds like it might be stronger in a straight up fight you have a serious upgrade problem. Especially if you want to get ship famage also. To be constantly upping every relevant thing you also need 3 armories! Which is 450/300 you cant spend on units even without considering upgrade costs.
Im still gonna try this when i get home tomorrow though.
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I was looking to try and make something like this work. Will have a play around with the Build order and see what happens. Thanks for the post.
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On April 15 2013 03:00 Deepflow wrote:
Ive been thinking about this and while it sounds like it might be stronger in a straight up fight you have a serious upgrade problem. Especially if you want to get ship famage also. To be constantly upping every relevant thing you also need 3 armories! Which is 450/300 you cant spend on units even without considering upgrade costs.
Im still gonna try this when i get home tomorrow though.
hellbats are so good you dont really have to upgrade them. and they are beefy as fuck so they make good meatshields
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On April 14 2013 08:43 BoggieMan wrote:
i had ok success with hellbat-marine in the hots beta.
i don't think you need marauders unless he goes like pure stalker collusi.
ghost and vikings are obviously needed... if you are gonna go marauder hellbat medivac ONLY then he can just make 6 collusi.
A reason for hellbats replacing marines in late game is that they don't get gibbed by colossus and storm splash, while still being able to tank and kill zealots very effectively. One of the reasons why marines are used despite how quickly they drop to splash is because you needed them for zealots, which otherwise just chop up marauders. Hellbats can take over that role. Different upgrade paths is a pretty big deal though.
And like marines, hellbats only cost minerals so it won't affect viking / ghost production (besides gas spent on factories etc.)
Not sure why OP would go from hellbat marauder medivac midgame into MMM though, I would think it would be the other way around, starting MMM and slowly mixing hellbats in to replace marines.
Hellbats are super good and I see them getting nerfed once they start being used more (like old blue flame).
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On April 15 2013 04:47 Genome852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2013 08:43 BoggieMan wrote:
i had ok success with hellbat-marine in the hots beta.
i don't think you need marauders unless he goes like pure stalker collusi.
ghost and vikings are obviously needed... if you are gonna go marauder hellbat medivac ONLY then he can just make 6 collusi. A reason for hellbats replacing marines in late game is that they don't get gibbed by colossus and storm splash, while still being able to tank and kill zealots very effectively. One of the reasons why marines are used despite how quickly they drop to splash is because you needed them for zealots, which otherwise just chop up marauders. Hellbats can take over that role. Different upgrade paths is a pretty big deal though. And like marines, hellbats only cost minerals so it won't affect viking / ghost production (besides gas spent on factories etc.) Not sure why OP would go from hellbat marauder medivac midgame into MMM though, I would think it would be the other way around, starting MMM and slowly mixing hellbats in to replace marines. Hellbats are super good and I see them getting nerfed once they start being used more (like old blue flame).
I really hope not. Hellbats are actually ridiculously slow compared to the general "flow" of the terran style. Yes, they are very strong, but they just feel so awkward to use. Having something new to play with in TvP late game is obviously a good change, otherwise we'll be stuck with mmmvg while protoss gets all the new units to play with :/
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I am a mid master terran and I have been incorporating Hellbats in my mid- und lategameplay to great success! I haven't used a specific BO, I just replace all my rax at reactors with factories sometime after my 3rd is secured and have been going with that. I will try a different approach tomorrow with a new BO so I am getting Hellbats earlier and I will report in this thread how sucessful I was :D
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