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David Kim's Thoughts on Balance Update #8

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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mythandier
Profile Joined January 2011
United States828 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-06 19:22:24
December 06 2012 19:05 GMT
#1
David Kim has posted his thoughts behind the latest and greatest balance update for HotS.

I think it's great to see his thought process on some of the changes - specifically the Terran changes.

The post is very long so I've broken it up by race.

Terran
+ Show Spoiler +
Medivac

When we looked at various strategies and metagames throughout Wings of Liberty history, we felt that multi-directional Medivac drops were both unique and fun to watch, especially in combination with main army vs. main army plays. We aren’t seeing as much in the way of multi-pronged Medivac harass anymore, and wanted to add something fun that might help bring these Medivac tactics back to the forefront.

For this reason, we chose to give the Medivac a new speed boost ability that has a short cooldown. We want this ability to feel powerful and have a direct impact on the outcome of an engagement when it’s used. If Medivac timing issues arise in the future, we’ll probably slow it down by implementing an upgrade requirement for the speed boost, rather than nerf the strength of the ability itself.

Furthermore, we feel Terran bio compositions face many new threats in Heart of the Swarm. Constant Locust volleys from Swarm Hosts, the revamped Ultralisk, and Time Warp, in combination with splash damage, all tear through Bio units. We felt it was necessary to buff Terran infantry in the late game to account for some of these threats. As a result, we decided to change the “Caduceus Reactor” upgrade to increase the healing rate of Medivac’s by two.


Reaper

We want to encourage the use of Reapers as an early game option against Protoss. We think that in order for Reapers to be good in the TvP early game, they need enough movement speed to outrun Stalkers.

We are also hearing your feedback on how tough it is to deal with Reapers in TvT, but we’d like to really push Reapers to see their full potential before dialing back on them slightly. If Reapers need to be weaker against Marines in the future, we can reduce their bonus damage against light units.


Widow Mine

The Widow Mine wasn’t getting much mid to late game usage against Protoss, and its ability to hit cloaked units felt like a rather strange rule to have on this unit. As a result, we decided to remove this component from the Widow Mine.

In order to help Widow Mines come back into play during the later stages of the game, we gave it an upgrade to reduce burrow time. This will allow Widow Mines to be used more easily on offense when combined with either mech or bio based armies.


Thor

With units like Tempests, Brood Lords, and the revamped Void Ray, we felt that Factory units could use a more standard anti air attack. As such, we’ve given the Thor a new weapon that can be swapped with its anti-light, AoE weapon when it may be more useful for a particular situation.

Due to the weapon change mentioned above, we expect players will mass Thors more often in Heart of the Swarm. As a result, we’ve given the Thor a few more size/radius changes in order to prevent too many units from hiding behind them.


Raven

After exploring a range of options for the Raven’s Seeker Missile ability, we settled on a high-damage, single target version that will be good against large units. Brood Lords are quite powerful, Thors received buffs with this patch, Ultralisks are stronger than ever, and Colossi have always been a threat. As a result, we feel there are enough suitable targets to justify this change to Seeker Missile. Please check out this ability in game and let us know how it’s working in combination with different Terran unit compositions in Heart of the Swarm.


Hellbat

We wanted to buff Hellbats against Zealots without affecting ranged units too much. We decided to keep the Hellbat’s splash range the same, but feel the improved attack radius against melee units is a solid choice.


Armory upgrades

We wanted to encourage Terran mech play with this patch, and feel that we’re giving mech armies a huge buff by combining the Armory’s air and ground upgrades. As a side effect, these changes will also greatly benefit Terran air compositions. Initially, we want to try this change to see how it affects the game. We think it will be fun seeing Banshees and Battlecruisers become viable in the late game for Terran players.


Protoss
+ Show Spoiler +
Mothership

Vortex has received a massive nerf with this patch. We don’t really like seeing Motherships in every PvZ game because the results are always all or nothing. You Vortex perfectly and win, or Vortex fails and you lose. We feel that it’s not a good thing for a single ability to have such a huge impact on the game.

We want other units, such as the Tempest, to take the place of the Mothership when combating Brood Lord and Infestor compositions. If necessary, Tempests can be buffed against Massive units to make this possible.


Oracle

We heard your feedback that players want to harass workers with the Oracle. We also felt that Oracle’s structure attack overlapped too much with our new direction for the Void Ray. For these reasons, we decided to go with an activated attack that is good against workers, but drains the Oracle’s energy. We feel this energy-based attack will help differentiate the Oracle from other air units that are effective against worker lines. With enough energy available, it will be possible to deal a lot of damage very quickly to an unprepared opponent.


Phoenix

We decided to increase the base attack range of the Phoenix to five in order to help Protoss players deal with the Mutalisk buffs in this patch. The Anion Pulse-Crystals upgrade still increases Phoenix range by two.


Dark Shrine cost reduction

We wanted the Dark Shrine to feel like a more desirable tech option for players. By reducing the cost of the Dark Shrine, Dark Templar can be utilized in more late game scenarios.


Tempest

We felt Tempests were countering too many late game tech options, and wanted to point Tempests more toward units like Colossi and Brood Lords. These Tempest weapon changes give us the freedom to increase damage as necessary to make sure those units are dealt with appropriately in Heart of the Swarm.


Void Ray

We felt that giving players control over the Void Ray’s charge up ability will make this unit a more appealing tech choice, and incentivize opponents to back away until the charge wears off. We’ve also aimed for damage numbers that will help Void Rays beat most armored units for cost.


Zerg
+ Show Spoiler +
Hydralisk

We felt that moving the Hydralisk speed upgrade to Lair tech would help Zerg players deal with new more effectively, especially when buffs to Protoss air units, heavy Infestor nerfs, and the need for an earlier six range counter to Widow Mines are taken into consideration.


Mutalisk

We felt some of the most fun plays for Zerg came in the form of Mutalisk-based board control, and wanted to encourage more of these tactics. We’ll continue exploring other options, because we’re not completely sure the speed buff in this patch is enough.


Swarm host

We felt a buff to the Swarm Host was necessary now that both Protoss and Terran air compositions are a lot stronger. The reason we went with a health buff is to allow easier repositioning of Swarm Hosts between Locust spawns. We think this type of positional play is one of the most fun ways to use Swarm Hosts, and wanted to promote more of it.


Infestor

For Heart of the Swarm, we want to push players to mass units like Hydralisks, Mutalisks, Swarm Hosts, or Ultralisks, rather than the Infestor. As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army.


Ultralisk

We wanted to make the Ultralisk much more deadly against ground units in Heart of the Swarm, and feel the damage buff in this patch accomplishes that goal. However, if this change isn’t enough to make Ultralisks awesome in the late game, we are prepared to make additional changes.

Burrow charge was cut because we believe it’s better for the Ultralisk to be an all-around powerful ground threat, than a teleporting anti armored unit.
Viper

We made a minor tweak to Viper health in order to give it more survivability. Our next step with this caster unit is to evaluate its abilities to make sure they are powerful enough, if they aren’t already.


Source:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7320452623
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
December 06 2012 19:15 GMT
#2
Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.

The change I'm most excited about is nerfing the infestor into submission in favor of more interesting, exciting units like the mutalisk and ultralisk. Lategame ZvP is completely reinvented from WOL to HOTS, and that's a very good thing. Look at this combination of HOTS changes:

-Infestor massively nerfed. No longer counters fast air units, much worse against blink stalkers and forcefields. IT's deal low damage to anything with armor upgrades and are killed by a single storm before they hatch.

-Tempest added. Counters broodlords but is slow and weak for cost against everything else.

-Ultralisk gainst +15 damage against zealots.

Zerg can't win with infestors and broodlords anymore. They can't play passively, mass spines and spores, and win. Broodlords are now a tactical siege unit rather than the primary late-game damage-dealer. Instead, ultras are the primary late-game unit since they're no longer countered by a wall of zealots tanking while immortals and archons DPS the ultras down. But you need to be active with the ultras because Protoss can mass immortals and archons and eventually out-class your army.

Blizz is definitely on the right track with making Zerg a more active, fun race. I'm pumped.
MilesTeg
Profile Joined September 2010
France1271 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-06 19:25:30
December 06 2012 19:23 GMT
#3
Interesting. Mutas might be buffed again apparently. I think the widow mine obviously is the biggest problem with them currently.

Remember the old Viper spell that gave detection to a unit? How about they bring that back but give it to the overseer? It would make the whole detection mechanic easier, and make Muta harassment a bit more viable in ZvT.

The other obvious solution is to make mines affect only ground. In any case I wouldn't expect anyone to use Mutas in ZvT as the matchup currently is. Any strategy that risks instantly losing 1k gas is a crap strategy.
Virid
Profile Joined November 2010
United States130 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-06 19:26:12
December 06 2012 19:25 GMT
#4
Why did Blizzard do something like "Let's add a huge number of new threats for players to produce, and add their counters as well" for both Protoss and Terran, but not Zerg?

In other words, they used a very heavy hand with Terran and Protoss, but nearly every explanation for changes to Zerg ends with "we're not sure this is enough, let's wait and see."

It's going to be a rough couple of weeks for Zerg players in the beta.
WeaponX.7
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada52 Posts
December 06 2012 19:25 GMT
#5
Its like blizzard doesnt understand what people like about terran mech. They like fucking tanks. Jesus christ people like the positional play of tanks with mech, nobody wants to go mass thor. Its probably the ugliest unit in the game. So what do they do? Make mass thor "viable" and combine air with mech upgrades. So every mech game will be mass thor into bc late game. Who the fuck wants to watch that. BC's and thors are both boring a-move units, but dont worry blizz thinks it will be "fun". Everytime I see an update for HotS I like it less.
Grrr... = first bonjwa
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10366 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-06 19:29:02
December 06 2012 19:26 GMT
#6
He mentioned air compositions... this means HEAVY air compositions right? otherwise it wouldn't be significant enough to be a "composition"

This is great, it shows (if I interpret it right) they want to make air compositions work out (but only for lategame...?), not make air and mech the same. I just still don't quite like mech and air upgrades being the same though. Maybe it's cus I'm too used to mech and air not being that fucking good haha. Hellion/banshee is hilarious to use as a composition.

I talked to him before and when i asked if they're trying to make air compositions viable, he didn't answer that one... that was like a year ago

On December 07 2012 04:25 WeaponX.7 wrote:
Its like blizzard doesnt understand what people like about terran mech. They like fucking tanks. Jesus christ people like the positional play of tanks with mech, nobody wants to go mass thor. Its probably the ugliest unit in the game. So what do they do? Make mass thor "viable" and combine air with mech upgrades. So every mech game will be mass thor into bc late game. Who the fuck wants to watch that. BC's and thors are both boring a-move units, but dont worry blizz thinks it will be "fun". Everytime I see an update for HotS I like it less.



hey hey, remember all those goliaths in BW? It's similar. You say it doesn't seem they understand what people like about mech... here you don't like high thor counts, but there's also many who love the mobile units of mech in BW (vulture and goliaths) and feel they are great compliments. So don't talk about "people" as if a considerably large majority want the same exact things.

And no it won't be mass thor. Vikings are still way better at AA than Thors (against non-light air units).

This also means that people who mech will have an easier time to mech. People who mech already make air units as support anyways. So this will directly help mech out.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
DemigodcelpH
Profile Joined August 2011
1138 Posts
December 06 2012 19:27 GMT
#7
Very reasonable. It's a good write-up and an enjoyable read.

On December 07 2012 04:25 Virid wrote:
Why did Blizzard do something like "Let's add a huge number of new threats for players to produce, and add their counters as well" for both Protoss and Terran, but not Zerg?

In other words, they used a very heavy hand with Terran and Protoss, but nearly every explanation for changes to Zerg ends with "we're not sure this is enough, let's wait and see."

It's going to be a rough couple of weeks for Zerg players in the beta.


Not at all. You have to consider that, even in the HotS metagame, Zerg was already significantly stronger.
MrHavix
Profile Joined June 2010
United States53 Posts
December 06 2012 19:32 GMT
#8
I would argue even pros can't make a substantial ruling on these changes without significant play time. Day[9]'s brain exploded last night before the daily and avoided patch discussion entirely. If the experts need time to dissect and analyze the variables, any Joe Smith tester's whining and crying is just baseless noise.
Cokefreak
Profile Joined June 2011
Finland8095 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-06 19:42:01
December 06 2012 19:34 GMT
#9
On December 07 2012 04:15 kcdc wrote:
Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.

Maybe because there's no need to have multiple threads on the same balance update? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=386360
Edit: by this I mean I think this should just be added into the other topics OP.
bLo0d
Profile Joined June 2011
58 Posts
December 06 2012 19:35 GMT
#10
300/300 and +30 s build time for double medivac production seems overkill just for a cooldown speed boost. I hope that the buffed healing rate upgrade isn't being factored into the cost of the medivac since that's mostly a late game upgrade. Terran early openings are gonna get so screwed timewise and gaswise and with all the air buffs, cutting into viking production time is just brutal. Other than that everything looks sick.
MilesTeg
Profile Joined September 2010
France1271 Posts
December 06 2012 19:36 GMT
#11
On December 07 2012 04:27 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Not at all. You have to consider that, even in the HotS metagame, Zerg was already significantly stronger.


I don't read the forums that much but that's gotta be at least the 5th crappy post I notice from you...

And for your information no, I don't think the majority would agree with your statement... (not for HotS).
Crawdad
Profile Joined September 2012
614 Posts
December 06 2012 19:37 GMT
#12
On December 07 2012 04:35 bLo0d wrote:
300/300 and +30 s build time for double medivac production seems overkill just for a cooldown speed boost. I hope that the buffed healing rate upgrade isn't being factored into the cost of the medivac since that's mostly a late game upgrade. Terran early openings are gonna get so screwed timewise and gaswise and with all the air buffs, cutting into viking production time is just brutal. Other than that everything looks sick.


You misunderstood. The cost of CADUCEUS REACTOR has been increased, not the Medivac itself.
mythandier
Profile Joined January 2011
United States828 Posts
December 06 2012 19:40 GMT
#13
On December 07 2012 04:34 Cokefreak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 07 2012 04:15 kcdc wrote:
Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.

Maybe because there's no need to have multiple threads on the same balance update? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=386360

Maybe because it's not the same thread? Maybe because this thread is a discussion on the thought process, as described by David Kim, behind the update?

I felt that his post was worthy of sharing here since it contains a well written, inside look at how they go about making their changes. If it isn't relevant or needed then I suppose it will be closed.

That out of the way -- I also agree that it's interesting how he qualifies several items, like Muta speed, with a "wait and see how it works out" approach. Then again, this is the beta...so shouldn't everything be a "wait and see"?
Cokefreak
Profile Joined June 2011
Finland8095 Posts
December 06 2012 19:41 GMT
#14
On December 07 2012 04:40 mythandier wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 07 2012 04:34 Cokefreak wrote:
On December 07 2012 04:15 kcdc wrote:
Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.

Maybe because there's no need to have multiple threads on the same balance update? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=386360

Maybe because it's not the same thread? Maybe because this thread is a discussion on the thought process, as described by David Kim, behind the update?

I felt that his post was worthy of sharing here since it contains a well written, inside look at how they go about making their changes. If it isn't relevant or needed then I suppose it will be closed.

That out of the way -- I also agree that it's interesting how he qualifies several items, like Muta speed, with a "wait and see how it works out" approach. Then again, this is the beta...so shouldn't everything be a "wait and see"?

Ah sorry I should've clarified, I think this should just be added into that topic.
Crawdad
Profile Joined September 2012
614 Posts
December 06 2012 19:41 GMT
#15
On December 07 2012 04:40 mythandier wrote:
That out of the way -- I also agree that it's interesting how he qualifies several items, like Muta speed, with a "wait and see how it works out" approach. Then again, this is the beta...so shouldn't everything be a "wait and see"?


Well, some things are "wait and see if it's too strong" and some things are "wait and see if it's not strong enough".
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
December 06 2012 19:42 GMT
#16
On December 07 2012 04:25 Virid wrote:
Why did Blizzard do something like "Let's add a huge number of new threats for players to produce, and add their counters as well" for both Protoss and Terran, but not Zerg?

In other words, they used a very heavy hand with Terran and Protoss, but nearly every explanation for changes to Zerg ends with "we're not sure this is enough, let's wait and see."

It's going to be a rough couple of weeks for Zerg players in the beta.


Probably because zerg has been the dominant race for a while, and they did add their counters to zerg.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
bLo0d
Profile Joined June 2011
58 Posts
December 06 2012 19:46 GMT
#17
On December 07 2012 04:37 Crawdad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 07 2012 04:35 bLo0d wrote:
300/300 and +30 s build time for double medivac production seems overkill just for a cooldown speed boost. I hope that the buffed healing rate upgrade isn't being factored into the cost of the medivac since that's mostly a late game upgrade. Terran early openings are gonna get so screwed timewise and gaswise and with all the air buffs, cutting into viking production time is just brutal. Other than that everything looks sick.


You misunderstood. The cost of CADUCEUS REACTOR has been increased, not the Medivac itself.


Oh wow, thanks for clearing that up, man. That makes more sense. In that case, sickest changes ever! =)
awesomoecalypse
Profile Joined August 2010
United States2235 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-06 19:46:55
December 06 2012 19:46 GMT
#18
Very smart read. I do hope they'll reconsider making medivac speed cost energy. I agree mutas may still need some kind of buff.
He drone drone drone. Me win. - ogsMC
IreScath
Profile Joined May 2009
Canada521 Posts
December 06 2012 19:56 GMT
#19
I'm just a little worried at how they're balancing this... especially protoss... with all these units with casts/abilities.

Including the core toss as 7! (lumped core and warp prism as 1).. Its really starting to feel like WC3 in game instead of Starcraft 2... I made a more detailed post in the thread on bnet forums (same account name)....

And I think that trend sucks for both the player of the race AND the opponents.
IreScath
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
December 06 2012 19:57 GMT
#20
The only thing I will comment on is that the combined mech-air upgrades for terran is just too much. You give this upgrade "in hopes of seeing larger number of banshees and BCs", what about protoss? I don't think there's anyone in the community, no matter what race they play, that wouldn't love to see increased skytoss usage with VRs, carriers, etc.

Vikings and banshees already do good damage for their purpose and now are essentially getting free upgrades to further their damage output beyond what was needed by the community.
starleague forever
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