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On December 07 2012 04:57 a176 wrote:
The only thing I will comment on is that the combined mech-air upgrades for terran is just too much. You give this upgrade "in hopes of seeing larger number of banshees and BCs", what about protoss? I don't think there's anyone in the community, no matter what race they play, that wouldn't love to see increased skytoss usage with VRs, carriers, etc.
Vikings and banshees already do good damage for their purpose and now are essentially getting free upgrades to further their damage output beyond what was needed by the community.
I think a good compromise would be to combine either the attack upgrade or the armor upgrade, but not both at once.
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On December 07 2012 04:57 a176 wrote:
The only thing I will comment on is that the combined mech-air upgrades for terran is just too much. You give this upgrade "in hopes of seeing larger number of banshees and BCs", what about protoss? I don't think there's anyone in the community, no matter what race they play, that wouldn't love to see increased skytoss usage with VRs, carriers, etc.
Vikings and banshees already do good damage for their purpose and now are essentially getting free upgrades to further their damage output beyond what was needed by the community.
You do know that protoss essentially only upgrades Warpgate + stargate as one set of upgrades ,and then their stargate units right?
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Question:
Does the armor upgrade for air and mech cost as much as the old MECH armor upgrade (cheaper) or the old AIR armor upgrade (more expensive).
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On December 07 2012 05:13 Crawdad wrote:
Question:
Does the armor upgrade for air and mech cost as much as the old MECH armor upgrade (cheaper) or the old AIR armor upgrade (more expensive).
I would guess they are going with the air upgrade cost (150/150, 225/225, 300/300).
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I wonder if they'll ever make Terran factory/starport upgrades affect the damage and defense of Raven's autoturrets?
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On December 07 2012 05:35 Teggy03 wrote:
I wonder if they'll ever make Terran factory/starport upgrades affect the damage and defense of Raven's autoturrets?
Since they're experimenting with removing the upgrades from ITs...I doubt it.
I'd rather they tweak the placement of the turrets since, as it is, they're a pain to actually get on the ground if units are around.
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On December 07 2012 05:09 VPVanek wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:57 a176 wrote:
The only thing I will comment on is that the combined mech-air upgrades for terran is just too much. You give this upgrade "in hopes of seeing larger number of banshees and BCs", what about protoss? I don't think there's anyone in the community, no matter what race they play, that wouldn't love to see increased skytoss usage with VRs, carriers, etc.
Vikings and banshees already do good damage for their purpose and now are essentially getting free upgrades to further their damage output beyond what was needed by the community. You do know that protoss essentially only upgrades Warpgate + stargate as one set of upgrades ,and then their stargate units right?
... what? i dont comprehend what you are saying.
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"we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor"
This is a bit of an overstatement
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On December 07 2012 04:57 a176 wrote:
The only thing I will comment on is that the combined mech-air upgrades for terran is just too much. You give this upgrade "in hopes of seeing larger number of banshees and BCs", what about protoss? I don't think there's anyone in the community, no matter what race they play, that wouldn't love to see increased skytoss usage with VRs, carriers, etc.
Vikings and banshees already do good damage for their purpose and now are essentially getting free upgrades to further their damage output beyond what was needed by the community.
Protoss have combined ground upgrades and then they have air upgrades, with one upgrade covering both.
Terran have combined starport/factory upgrades and bio upgrades.
What has happened is Terran have had their upgrades normalised a bit more compared to Protoss. There is no need to change Protoss upgrades.
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I think the biggest problem with combining mech and air together is that in a bio vs mech TvT, it will be almost impossible for the bio player to ever transition to air. I think it in general discourages bio play (maybe why they made a buff for medivacs.) I think they would be better off combining infantry + mech as ground upgrades. That would be a huge tank buff (faster upgrades) and everyone seems to want a tank buff.
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I'm pleasantly suprised by this sudden huge patch and the rationality behind. I didn't expand such big changes so quickly and definately not as interesting as some of these and like the reasoning behind many of them.
I have my doubts about the terran changes specifically but they are also most drastic. Seeker missile might be too good against broodlords/tanks and not good enough against anything else but that can be tweaked. Medivac feels too strong if it's able to even outrun muta's for a short while and have such high healing.
The armory change worries me most of all, it's too good I think being able to get 3/3 for both mech and air in such short time and for such low costs now. Viking, hellbat, tank with a few thors and medivacs is just rediculously strong and i'm pretty sure unbeatable for zerg, from what i've played so far terran can just cruise to this on 3 bases and then almost a-move to the win. Zerg needs to have roaches to even stand a chance to survive against hellbats earlier on and getting those usually means they have crappy upgrades for their air and ultra's / broodlings.
It would have been more interesting if they just buffed mech and air techs separately, just make them 100/100, 150/150, 200/200 and reduce the tech times by maybe 10 secs each. It would buff air and mech too but mixing either with bio would become more interesting too.
For the rest I can't complain at all though, with some number tweaking here and there it looks like a lot of fun now, my only real problems with HotS that remain are the early power of widow mines against zerg and the mothership core in general which screw up the earlygame a bit.
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On December 07 2012 04:15 kcdc wrote:
Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.
The change I'm most excited about is nerfing the infestor into submission in favor of more interesting, exciting units like the mutalisk and ultralisk. Lategame ZvP is completely reinvented from WOL to HOTS, and that's a very good thing. Look at this combination of HOTS changes:
-Infestor massively nerfed. No longer counters fast air units, much worse against blink stalkers and forcefields. IT's deal low damage to anything with armor upgrades and are killed by a single storm before they hatch.
-Tempest added. Counters broodlords but is slow and weak for cost against everything else.
-Ultralisk gainst +15 damage against zealots.
Zerg can't win with infestors and broodlords anymore. They can't play passively, mass spines and spores, and win. Broodlords are now a tactical siege unit rather than the primary late-game damage-dealer. Instead, ultras are the primary late-game unit since they're no longer countered by a wall of zealots tanking while immortals and archons DPS the ultras down. But you need to be active with the ultras because Protoss can mass immortals and archons and eventually out-class your army.
Blizz is definitely on the right track with making Zerg a more active, fun race. I'm pumped.
Why do you say this? Immortals still hardcounter Ultras, becuase they're armored. Ultras will not change in ZvP. Immortals and Archons still stomp them. In fact, I'm not really sure what this change will do... It's nice, but you don't make a lot of 'light' units against Ultras anyway.
Only thing that comes to mind.
MARINES. Yeah more than double damage to Marines is more than good.
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The units that still need changes, in MY opinion:
Ghost, Battlecruiser, Overseer, Corruptor.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 07 2012 06:06 LOLItsRyann wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:15 kcdc wrote:
Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.
The change I'm most excited about is nerfing the infestor into submission in favor of more interesting, exciting units like the mutalisk and ultralisk. Lategame ZvP is completely reinvented from WOL to HOTS, and that's a very good thing. Look at this combination of HOTS changes:
-Infestor massively nerfed. No longer counters fast air units, much worse against blink stalkers and forcefields. IT's deal low damage to anything with armor upgrades and are killed by a single storm before they hatch.
-Tempest added. Counters broodlords but is slow and weak for cost against everything else.
-Ultralisk gainst +15 damage against zealots.
Zerg can't win with infestors and broodlords anymore. They can't play passively, mass spines and spores, and win. Broodlords are now a tactical siege unit rather than the primary late-game damage-dealer. Instead, ultras are the primary late-game unit since they're no longer countered by a wall of zealots tanking while immortals and archons DPS the ultras down. But you need to be active with the ultras because Protoss can mass immortals and archons and eventually out-class your army.
Blizz is definitely on the right track with making Zerg a more active, fun race. I'm pumped. Why do you say this? Immortals still hardcounter Ultras, becuase they're armored. Ultras will not change in ZvP. Immortals and Archons still stomp them. In fact, I'm not really sure what this change will do... It's nice, but you don't make a lot of 'light' units against Ultras anyway. Only thing that comes to mind. MARINES. Yeah more than double damage to Marines is more than good.
Ultralisks got a nice damage boost vs. zealots and archons, so maybe that will help out. Also, when I see an ultralisk composition, I most definitely do add in a lot of zealots.
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On December 07 2012 06:06 LOLItsRyann wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:15 kcdc wrote:
Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.
The change I'm most excited about is nerfing the infestor into submission in favor of more interesting, exciting units like the mutalisk and ultralisk. Lategame ZvP is completely reinvented from WOL to HOTS, and that's a very good thing. Look at this combination of HOTS changes:
-Infestor massively nerfed. No longer counters fast air units, much worse against blink stalkers and forcefields. IT's deal low damage to anything with armor upgrades and are killed by a single storm before they hatch.
-Tempest added. Counters broodlords but is slow and weak for cost against everything else.
-Ultralisk gainst +15 damage against zealots.
Zerg can't win with infestors and broodlords anymore. They can't play passively, mass spines and spores, and win. Broodlords are now a tactical siege unit rather than the primary late-game damage-dealer. Instead, ultras are the primary late-game unit since they're no longer countered by a wall of zealots tanking while immortals and archons DPS the ultras down. But you need to be active with the ultras because Protoss can mass immortals and archons and eventually out-class your army.
Blizz is definitely on the right track with making Zerg a more active, fun race. I'm pumped. Why do you say this? Immortals still hardcounter Ultras, becuase they're armored. Ultras will not change in ZvP. Immortals and Archons still stomp them. In fact, I'm not really sure what this change will do... It's nice, but you don't make a lot of 'light' units against Ultras anyway. Only thing that comes to mind. MARINES. Yeah more than double damage to Marines is more than good.
However, Ultras will now do more damage to Archons as well, which is a nice plus. And increased damage against Hellions and Hellbats will also be good against mech, especially since those units were meant to be cheap, mineral-only damage buffers.
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I wonder what David Kim thinks about TVP mech. Is he of the opinion that Terran should go seeker missile to counter immortals/archons rather than EMP?
Or is he fine with ghosts being a neccesity in a mech tvp composition?
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I think reaper is too fast for a ranged unit. (faster than a zerguling)
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On December 07 2012 06:06 LOLItsRyann wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:15 kcdc wrote:
Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.
The change I'm most excited about is nerfing the infestor into submission in favor of more interesting, exciting units like the mutalisk and ultralisk. Lategame ZvP is completely reinvented from WOL to HOTS, and that's a very good thing. Look at this combination of HOTS changes:
-Infestor massively nerfed. No longer counters fast air units, much worse against blink stalkers and forcefields. IT's deal low damage to anything with armor upgrades and are killed by a single storm before they hatch.
-Tempest added. Counters broodlords but is slow and weak for cost against everything else.
-Ultralisk gainst +15 damage against zealots.
Zerg can't win with infestors and broodlords anymore. They can't play passively, mass spines and spores, and win. Broodlords are now a tactical siege unit rather than the primary late-game damage-dealer. Instead, ultras are the primary late-game unit since they're no longer countered by a wall of zealots tanking while immortals and archons DPS the ultras down. But you need to be active with the ultras because Protoss can mass immortals and archons and eventually out-class your army.
Blizz is definitely on the right track with making Zerg a more active, fun race. I'm pumped. Why do you say this? Immortals still hardcounter Ultras, becuase they're armored. Ultras will not change in ZvP. Immortals and Archons still stomp them. In fact, I'm not really sure what this change will do... It's nice, but you don't make a lot of 'light' units against Ultras anyway. Only thing that comes to mind. MARINES. Yeah more than double damage to Marines is more than good.
You are not looking at the whole picture. The Vipers alone could make Ultras viable.
On December 07 2012 06:36 shin_toss wrote:
I think reaper is too fast for a ranged unit. (faster than a zerguling)
Zerg has 5 range Queens, 4 range Roaches and Zerglings on Creep, that are just as fast as Reaper. If you are talking about Reapers with upgraded speed, no, they aren't, Reapers with speed are as fast as Hellions, and Speedlings are faster than them.
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To summarize his thoughts on balance in sentence:
We had to buff unit x because unit y got buffed
We had to buff unit z because unit x got buffed
I love this patch <3.
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-As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army.
he is definitely high.
Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby.
At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit.
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EPT
