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David Kim has posted his thoughts behind the latest and greatest balance update for HotS.
I think it's great to see his thought process on some of the changes - specifically the Terran changes.
The post is very long so I've broken it up by race.
Terran + Show Spoiler +Medivac
When we looked at various strategies and metagames throughout Wings of Liberty history, we felt that multi-directional Medivac drops were both unique and fun to watch, especially in combination with main army vs. main army plays. We aren’t seeing as much in the way of multi-pronged Medivac harass anymore, and wanted to add something fun that might help bring these Medivac tactics back to the forefront.
For this reason, we chose to give the Medivac a new speed boost ability that has a short cooldown. We want this ability to feel powerful and have a direct impact on the outcome of an engagement when it’s used. If Medivac timing issues arise in the future, we’ll probably slow it down by implementing an upgrade requirement for the speed boost, rather than nerf the strength of the ability itself.
Furthermore, we feel Terran bio compositions face many new threats in Heart of the Swarm. Constant Locust volleys from Swarm Hosts, the revamped Ultralisk, and Time Warp, in combination with splash damage, all tear through Bio units. We felt it was necessary to buff Terran infantry in the late game to account for some of these threats. As a result, we decided to change the “Caduceus Reactor” upgrade to increase the healing rate of Medivac’s by two.
Reaper
We want to encourage the use of Reapers as an early game option against Protoss. We think that in order for Reapers to be good in the TvP early game, they need enough movement speed to outrun Stalkers.
We are also hearing your feedback on how tough it is to deal with Reapers in TvT, but we’d like to really push Reapers to see their full potential before dialing back on them slightly. If Reapers need to be weaker against Marines in the future, we can reduce their bonus damage against light units.
Widow Mine
The Widow Mine wasn’t getting much mid to late game usage against Protoss, and its ability to hit cloaked units felt like a rather strange rule to have on this unit. As a result, we decided to remove this component from the Widow Mine.
In order to help Widow Mines come back into play during the later stages of the game, we gave it an upgrade to reduce burrow time. This will allow Widow Mines to be used more easily on offense when combined with either mech or bio based armies.
Thor
With units like Tempests, Brood Lords, and the revamped Void Ray, we felt that Factory units could use a more standard anti air attack. As such, we’ve given the Thor a new weapon that can be swapped with its anti-light, AoE weapon when it may be more useful for a particular situation.
Due to the weapon change mentioned above, we expect players will mass Thors more often in Heart of the Swarm. As a result, we’ve given the Thor a few more size/radius changes in order to prevent too many units from hiding behind them.
Raven
After exploring a range of options for the Raven’s Seeker Missile ability, we settled on a high-damage, single target version that will be good against large units. Brood Lords are quite powerful, Thors received buffs with this patch, Ultralisks are stronger than ever, and Colossi have always been a threat. As a result, we feel there are enough suitable targets to justify this change to Seeker Missile. Please check out this ability in game and let us know how it’s working in combination with different Terran unit compositions in Heart of the Swarm.
Hellbat
We wanted to buff Hellbats against Zealots without affecting ranged units too much. We decided to keep the Hellbat’s splash range the same, but feel the improved attack radius against melee units is a solid choice.
Armory upgrades
We wanted to encourage Terran mech play with this patch, and feel that we’re giving mech armies a huge buff by combining the Armory’s air and ground upgrades. As a side effect, these changes will also greatly benefit Terran air compositions. Initially, we want to try this change to see how it affects the game. We think it will be fun seeing Banshees and Battlecruisers become viable in the late game for Terran players.
Protoss + Show Spoiler +Mothership
Vortex has received a massive nerf with this patch. We don’t really like seeing Motherships in every PvZ game because the results are always all or nothing. You Vortex perfectly and win, or Vortex fails and you lose. We feel that it’s not a good thing for a single ability to have such a huge impact on the game.
We want other units, such as the Tempest, to take the place of the Mothership when combating Brood Lord and Infestor compositions. If necessary, Tempests can be buffed against Massive units to make this possible.
Oracle
We heard your feedback that players want to harass workers with the Oracle. We also felt that Oracle’s structure attack overlapped too much with our new direction for the Void Ray. For these reasons, we decided to go with an activated attack that is good against workers, but drains the Oracle’s energy. We feel this energy-based attack will help differentiate the Oracle from other air units that are effective against worker lines. With enough energy available, it will be possible to deal a lot of damage very quickly to an unprepared opponent.
Phoenix
We decided to increase the base attack range of the Phoenix to five in order to help Protoss players deal with the Mutalisk buffs in this patch. The Anion Pulse-Crystals upgrade still increases Phoenix range by two.
Dark Shrine cost reduction
We wanted the Dark Shrine to feel like a more desirable tech option for players. By reducing the cost of the Dark Shrine, Dark Templar can be utilized in more late game scenarios.
Tempest
We felt Tempests were countering too many late game tech options, and wanted to point Tempests more toward units like Colossi and Brood Lords. These Tempest weapon changes give us the freedom to increase damage as necessary to make sure those units are dealt with appropriately in Heart of the Swarm.
Void Ray
We felt that giving players control over the Void Ray’s charge up ability will make this unit a more appealing tech choice, and incentivize opponents to back away until the charge wears off. We’ve also aimed for damage numbers that will help Void Rays beat most armored units for cost.
Zerg + Show Spoiler +Hydralisk
We felt that moving the Hydralisk speed upgrade to Lair tech would help Zerg players deal with new more effectively, especially when buffs to Protoss air units, heavy Infestor nerfs, and the need for an earlier six range counter to Widow Mines are taken into consideration.
Mutalisk
We felt some of the most fun plays for Zerg came in the form of Mutalisk-based board control, and wanted to encourage more of these tactics. We’ll continue exploring other options, because we’re not completely sure the speed buff in this patch is enough.
Swarm host
We felt a buff to the Swarm Host was necessary now that both Protoss and Terran air compositions are a lot stronger. The reason we went with a health buff is to allow easier repositioning of Swarm Hosts between Locust spawns. We think this type of positional play is one of the most fun ways to use Swarm Hosts, and wanted to promote more of it.
Infestor
For Heart of the Swarm, we want to push players to mass units like Hydralisks, Mutalisks, Swarm Hosts, or Ultralisks, rather than the Infestor. As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army.
Ultralisk
We wanted to make the Ultralisk much more deadly against ground units in Heart of the Swarm, and feel the damage buff in this patch accomplishes that goal. However, if this change isn’t enough to make Ultralisks awesome in the late game, we are prepared to make additional changes.
Burrow charge was cut because we believe it’s better for the Ultralisk to be an all-around powerful ground threat, than a teleporting anti armored unit. Viper
We made a minor tweak to Viper health in order to give it more survivability. Our next step with this caster unit is to evaluate its abilities to make sure they are powerful enough, if they aren’t already.
Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7320452623
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Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.
The change I'm most excited about is nerfing the infestor into submission in favor of more interesting, exciting units like the mutalisk and ultralisk. Lategame ZvP is completely reinvented from WOL to HOTS, and that's a very good thing. Look at this combination of HOTS changes:
-Infestor massively nerfed. No longer counters fast air units, much worse against blink stalkers and forcefields. IT's deal low damage to anything with armor upgrades and are killed by a single storm before they hatch.
-Tempest added. Counters broodlords but is slow and weak for cost against everything else.
-Ultralisk gainst +15 damage against zealots.
Zerg can't win with infestors and broodlords anymore. They can't play passively, mass spines and spores, and win. Broodlords are now a tactical siege unit rather than the primary late-game damage-dealer. Instead, ultras are the primary late-game unit since they're no longer countered by a wall of zealots tanking while immortals and archons DPS the ultras down. But you need to be active with the ultras because Protoss can mass immortals and archons and eventually out-class your army.
Blizz is definitely on the right track with making Zerg a more active, fun race. I'm pumped.
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Interesting. Mutas might be buffed again apparently. I think the widow mine obviously is the biggest problem with them currently.
Remember the old Viper spell that gave detection to a unit? How about they bring that back but give it to the overseer? It would make the whole detection mechanic easier, and make Muta harassment a bit more viable in ZvT.
The other obvious solution is to make mines affect only ground. In any case I wouldn't expect anyone to use Mutas in ZvT as the matchup currently is. Any strategy that risks instantly losing 1k gas is a crap strategy.
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Why did Blizzard do something like "Let's add a huge number of new threats for players to produce, and add their counters as well" for both Protoss and Terran, but not Zerg?
In other words, they used a very heavy hand with Terran and Protoss, but nearly every explanation for changes to Zerg ends with "we're not sure this is enough, let's wait and see."
It's going to be a rough couple of weeks for Zerg players in the beta.
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Its like blizzard doesnt understand what people like about terran mech. They like fucking tanks. Jesus christ people like the positional play of tanks with mech, nobody wants to go mass thor. Its probably the ugliest unit in the game. So what do they do? Make mass thor "viable" and combine air with mech upgrades. So every mech game will be mass thor into bc late game. Who the fuck wants to watch that. BC's and thors are both boring a-move units, but dont worry blizz thinks it will be "fun". Everytime I see an update for HotS I like it less.
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He mentioned air compositions... this means HEAVY air compositions right? otherwise it wouldn't be significant enough to be a "composition"
This is great, it shows (if I interpret it right) they want to make air compositions work out (but only for lategame...?), not make air and mech the same. I just still don't quite like mech and air upgrades being the same though. Maybe it's cus I'm too used to mech and air not being that fucking good haha. Hellion/banshee is hilarious to use as a composition.
I talked to him before and when i asked if they're trying to make air compositions viable, he didn't answer that one... that was like a year ago
On December 07 2012 04:25 WeaponX.7 wrote: Its like blizzard doesnt understand what people like about terran mech. They like fucking tanks. Jesus christ people like the positional play of tanks with mech, nobody wants to go mass thor. Its probably the ugliest unit in the game. So what do they do? Make mass thor "viable" and combine air with mech upgrades. So every mech game will be mass thor into bc late game. Who the fuck wants to watch that. BC's and thors are both boring a-move units, but dont worry blizz thinks it will be "fun". Everytime I see an update for HotS I like it less.
hey hey, remember all those goliaths in BW? It's similar. You say it doesn't seem they understand what people like about mech... here you don't like high thor counts, but there's also many who love the mobile units of mech in BW (vulture and goliaths) and feel they are great compliments. So don't talk about "people" as if a considerably large majority want the same exact things.
And no it won't be mass thor. Vikings are still way better at AA than Thors (against non-light air units).
This also means that people who mech will have an easier time to mech. People who mech already make air units as support anyways. So this will directly help mech out.
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Very reasonable. It's a good write-up and an enjoyable read.
On December 07 2012 04:25 Virid wrote: Why did Blizzard do something like "Let's add a huge number of new threats for players to produce, and add their counters as well" for both Protoss and Terran, but not Zerg?
In other words, they used a very heavy hand with Terran and Protoss, but nearly every explanation for changes to Zerg ends with "we're not sure this is enough, let's wait and see."
It's going to be a rough couple of weeks for Zerg players in the beta.
Not at all. You have to consider that, even in the HotS metagame, Zerg was already significantly stronger.
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I would argue even pros can't make a substantial ruling on these changes without significant play time. Day[9]'s brain exploded last night before the daily and avoided patch discussion entirely. If the experts need time to dissect and analyze the variables, any Joe Smith tester's whining and crying is just baseless noise.
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On December 07 2012 04:15 kcdc wrote: Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open. Maybe because there's no need to have multiple threads on the same balance update? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=386360 Edit: by this I mean I think this should just be added into the other topics OP.
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300/300 and +30 s build time for double medivac production seems overkill just for a cooldown speed boost. I hope that the buffed healing rate upgrade isn't being factored into the cost of the medivac since that's mostly a late game upgrade. Terran early openings are gonna get so screwed timewise and gaswise and with all the air buffs, cutting into viking production time is just brutal. Other than that everything looks sick.
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On December 07 2012 04:27 DemigodcelpH wrote: Not at all. You have to consider that, even in the HotS metagame, Zerg was already significantly stronger.
I don't read the forums that much but that's gotta be at least the 5th crappy post I notice from you...
And for your information no, I don't think the majority would agree with your statement... (not for HotS).
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On December 07 2012 04:35 bLo0d wrote: 300/300 and +30 s build time for double medivac production seems overkill just for a cooldown speed boost. I hope that the buffed healing rate upgrade isn't being factored into the cost of the medivac since that's mostly a late game upgrade. Terran early openings are gonna get so screwed timewise and gaswise and with all the air buffs, cutting into viking production time is just brutal. Other than that everything looks sick.
You misunderstood. The cost of CADUCEUS REACTOR has been increased, not the Medivac itself.
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Maybe because it's not the same thread? Maybe because this thread is a discussion on the thought process, as described by David Kim, behind the update?
I felt that his post was worthy of sharing here since it contains a well written, inside look at how they go about making their changes. If it isn't relevant or needed then I suppose it will be closed.
That out of the way -- I also agree that it's interesting how he qualifies several items, like Muta speed, with a "wait and see how it works out" approach. Then again, this is the beta...so shouldn't everything be a "wait and see"?
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On December 07 2012 04:40 mythandier wrote:Maybe because it's not the same thread? Maybe because this thread is a discussion on the thought process, as described by David Kim, behind the update? I felt that his post was worthy of sharing here since it contains a well written, inside look at how they go about making their changes. If it isn't relevant or needed then I suppose it will be closed. That out of the way -- I also agree that it's interesting how he qualifies several items, like Muta speed, with a "wait and see how it works out" approach. Then again, this is the beta...so shouldn't everything be a "wait and see"? Ah sorry I should've clarified, I think this should just be added into that topic.
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On December 07 2012 04:40 mythandier wrote: That out of the way -- I also agree that it's interesting how he qualifies several items, like Muta speed, with a "wait and see how it works out" approach. Then again, this is the beta...so shouldn't everything be a "wait and see"?
Well, some things are "wait and see if it's too strong" and some things are "wait and see if it's not strong enough".
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United States7483 Posts
On December 07 2012 04:25 Virid wrote: Why did Blizzard do something like "Let's add a huge number of new threats for players to produce, and add their counters as well" for both Protoss and Terran, but not Zerg?
In other words, they used a very heavy hand with Terran and Protoss, but nearly every explanation for changes to Zerg ends with "we're not sure this is enough, let's wait and see."
It's going to be a rough couple of weeks for Zerg players in the beta.
Probably because zerg has been the dominant race for a while, and they did add their counters to zerg.
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On December 07 2012 04:37 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:35 bLo0d wrote: 300/300 and +30 s build time for double medivac production seems overkill just for a cooldown speed boost. I hope that the buffed healing rate upgrade isn't being factored into the cost of the medivac since that's mostly a late game upgrade. Terran early openings are gonna get so screwed timewise and gaswise and with all the air buffs, cutting into viking production time is just brutal. Other than that everything looks sick. You misunderstood. The cost of CADUCEUS REACTOR has been increased, not the Medivac itself.
Oh wow, thanks for clearing that up, man. That makes more sense. In that case, sickest changes ever! =)
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Very smart read. I do hope they'll reconsider making medivac speed cost energy. I agree mutas may still need some kind of buff.
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I'm just a little worried at how they're balancing this... especially protoss... with all these units with casts/abilities.
Including the core toss as 7! (lumped core and warp prism as 1).. Its really starting to feel like WC3 in game instead of Starcraft 2... I made a more detailed post in the thread on bnet forums (same account name)....
And I think that trend sucks for both the player of the race AND the opponents.
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The only thing I will comment on is that the combined mech-air upgrades for terran is just too much. You give this upgrade "in hopes of seeing larger number of banshees and BCs", what about protoss? I don't think there's anyone in the community, no matter what race they play, that wouldn't love to see increased skytoss usage with VRs, carriers, etc.
Vikings and banshees already do good damage for their purpose and now are essentially getting free upgrades to further their damage output beyond what was needed by the community.
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On December 07 2012 04:57 a176 wrote: The only thing I will comment on is that the combined mech-air upgrades for terran is just too much. You give this upgrade "in hopes of seeing larger number of banshees and BCs", what about protoss? I don't think there's anyone in the community, no matter what race they play, that wouldn't love to see increased skytoss usage with VRs, carriers, etc.
Vikings and banshees already do good damage for their purpose and now are essentially getting free upgrades to further their damage output beyond what was needed by the community. I think a good compromise would be to combine either the attack upgrade or the armor upgrade, but not both at once.
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Canada238 Posts
On December 07 2012 04:57 a176 wrote: The only thing I will comment on is that the combined mech-air upgrades for terran is just too much. You give this upgrade "in hopes of seeing larger number of banshees and BCs", what about protoss? I don't think there's anyone in the community, no matter what race they play, that wouldn't love to see increased skytoss usage with VRs, carriers, etc.
Vikings and banshees already do good damage for their purpose and now are essentially getting free upgrades to further their damage output beyond what was needed by the community.
You do know that protoss essentially only upgrades Warpgate + stargate as one set of upgrades ,and then their stargate units right?
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Question:
Does the armor upgrade for air and mech cost as much as the old MECH armor upgrade (cheaper) or the old AIR armor upgrade (more expensive).
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On December 07 2012 05:13 Crawdad wrote: Question:
Does the armor upgrade for air and mech cost as much as the old MECH armor upgrade (cheaper) or the old AIR armor upgrade (more expensive).
I would guess they are going with the air upgrade cost (150/150, 225/225, 300/300).
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I wonder if they'll ever make Terran factory/starport upgrades affect the damage and defense of Raven's autoturrets?
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On December 07 2012 05:35 Teggy03 wrote: I wonder if they'll ever make Terran factory/starport upgrades affect the damage and defense of Raven's autoturrets? Since they're experimenting with removing the upgrades from ITs...I doubt it.
I'd rather they tweak the placement of the turrets since, as it is, they're a pain to actually get on the ground if units are around.
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On December 07 2012 05:09 VPVanek wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:57 a176 wrote: The only thing I will comment on is that the combined mech-air upgrades for terran is just too much. You give this upgrade "in hopes of seeing larger number of banshees and BCs", what about protoss? I don't think there's anyone in the community, no matter what race they play, that wouldn't love to see increased skytoss usage with VRs, carriers, etc.
Vikings and banshees already do good damage for their purpose and now are essentially getting free upgrades to further their damage output beyond what was needed by the community. You do know that protoss essentially only upgrades Warpgate + stargate as one set of upgrades ,and then their stargate units right?
... what? i dont comprehend what you are saying.
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"we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor" This is a bit of an overstatement
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On December 07 2012 04:57 a176 wrote: The only thing I will comment on is that the combined mech-air upgrades for terran is just too much. You give this upgrade "in hopes of seeing larger number of banshees and BCs", what about protoss? I don't think there's anyone in the community, no matter what race they play, that wouldn't love to see increased skytoss usage with VRs, carriers, etc.
Vikings and banshees already do good damage for their purpose and now are essentially getting free upgrades to further their damage output beyond what was needed by the community.
Protoss have combined ground upgrades and then they have air upgrades, with one upgrade covering both.
Terran have combined starport/factory upgrades and bio upgrades.
What has happened is Terran have had their upgrades normalised a bit more compared to Protoss. There is no need to change Protoss upgrades.
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I think the biggest problem with combining mech and air together is that in a bio vs mech TvT, it will be almost impossible for the bio player to ever transition to air. I think it in general discourages bio play (maybe why they made a buff for medivacs.) I think they would be better off combining infantry + mech as ground upgrades. That would be a huge tank buff (faster upgrades) and everyone seems to want a tank buff.
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I'm pleasantly suprised by this sudden huge patch and the rationality behind. I didn't expand such big changes so quickly and definately not as interesting as some of these and like the reasoning behind many of them.
I have my doubts about the terran changes specifically but they are also most drastic. Seeker missile might be too good against broodlords/tanks and not good enough against anything else but that can be tweaked. Medivac feels too strong if it's able to even outrun muta's for a short while and have such high healing. The armory change worries me most of all, it's too good I think being able to get 3/3 for both mech and air in such short time and for such low costs now. Viking, hellbat, tank with a few thors and medivacs is just rediculously strong and i'm pretty sure unbeatable for zerg, from what i've played so far terran can just cruise to this on 3 bases and then almost a-move to the win. Zerg needs to have roaches to even stand a chance to survive against hellbats earlier on and getting those usually means they have crappy upgrades for their air and ultra's / broodlings. It would have been more interesting if they just buffed mech and air techs separately, just make them 100/100, 150/150, 200/200 and reduce the tech times by maybe 10 secs each. It would buff air and mech too but mixing either with bio would become more interesting too.
For the rest I can't complain at all though, with some number tweaking here and there it looks like a lot of fun now, my only real problems with HotS that remain are the early power of widow mines against zerg and the mothership core in general which screw up the earlygame a bit.
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On December 07 2012 04:15 kcdc wrote: Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.
The change I'm most excited about is nerfing the infestor into submission in favor of more interesting, exciting units like the mutalisk and ultralisk. Lategame ZvP is completely reinvented from WOL to HOTS, and that's a very good thing. Look at this combination of HOTS changes:
-Infestor massively nerfed. No longer counters fast air units, much worse against blink stalkers and forcefields. IT's deal low damage to anything with armor upgrades and are killed by a single storm before they hatch.
-Tempest added. Counters broodlords but is slow and weak for cost against everything else.
-Ultralisk gainst +15 damage against zealots.
Zerg can't win with infestors and broodlords anymore. They can't play passively, mass spines and spores, and win. Broodlords are now a tactical siege unit rather than the primary late-game damage-dealer. Instead, ultras are the primary late-game unit since they're no longer countered by a wall of zealots tanking while immortals and archons DPS the ultras down. But you need to be active with the ultras because Protoss can mass immortals and archons and eventually out-class your army.
Blizz is definitely on the right track with making Zerg a more active, fun race. I'm pumped.
Why do you say this? Immortals still hardcounter Ultras, becuase they're armored. Ultras will not change in ZvP. Immortals and Archons still stomp them. In fact, I'm not really sure what this change will do... It's nice, but you don't make a lot of 'light' units against Ultras anyway.
Only thing that comes to mind.
MARINES. Yeah more than double damage to Marines is more than good.
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The units that still need changes, in MY opinion:
Ghost, Battlecruiser, Overseer, Corruptor.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 07 2012 06:06 LOLItsRyann wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:15 kcdc wrote: Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.
The change I'm most excited about is nerfing the infestor into submission in favor of more interesting, exciting units like the mutalisk and ultralisk. Lategame ZvP is completely reinvented from WOL to HOTS, and that's a very good thing. Look at this combination of HOTS changes:
-Infestor massively nerfed. No longer counters fast air units, much worse against blink stalkers and forcefields. IT's deal low damage to anything with armor upgrades and are killed by a single storm before they hatch.
-Tempest added. Counters broodlords but is slow and weak for cost against everything else.
-Ultralisk gainst +15 damage against zealots.
Zerg can't win with infestors and broodlords anymore. They can't play passively, mass spines and spores, and win. Broodlords are now a tactical siege unit rather than the primary late-game damage-dealer. Instead, ultras are the primary late-game unit since they're no longer countered by a wall of zealots tanking while immortals and archons DPS the ultras down. But you need to be active with the ultras because Protoss can mass immortals and archons and eventually out-class your army.
Blizz is definitely on the right track with making Zerg a more active, fun race. I'm pumped. Why do you say this? Immortals still hardcounter Ultras, becuase they're armored. Ultras will not change in ZvP. Immortals and Archons still stomp them. In fact, I'm not really sure what this change will do... It's nice, but you don't make a lot of 'light' units against Ultras anyway. Only thing that comes to mind. MARINES. Yeah more than double damage to Marines is more than good.
Ultralisks got a nice damage boost vs. zealots and archons, so maybe that will help out. Also, when I see an ultralisk composition, I most definitely do add in a lot of zealots.
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On December 07 2012 06:06 LOLItsRyann wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:15 kcdc wrote: Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.
The change I'm most excited about is nerfing the infestor into submission in favor of more interesting, exciting units like the mutalisk and ultralisk. Lategame ZvP is completely reinvented from WOL to HOTS, and that's a very good thing. Look at this combination of HOTS changes:
-Infestor massively nerfed. No longer counters fast air units, much worse against blink stalkers and forcefields. IT's deal low damage to anything with armor upgrades and are killed by a single storm before they hatch.
-Tempest added. Counters broodlords but is slow and weak for cost against everything else.
-Ultralisk gainst +15 damage against zealots.
Zerg can't win with infestors and broodlords anymore. They can't play passively, mass spines and spores, and win. Broodlords are now a tactical siege unit rather than the primary late-game damage-dealer. Instead, ultras are the primary late-game unit since they're no longer countered by a wall of zealots tanking while immortals and archons DPS the ultras down. But you need to be active with the ultras because Protoss can mass immortals and archons and eventually out-class your army.
Blizz is definitely on the right track with making Zerg a more active, fun race. I'm pumped. Why do you say this? Immortals still hardcounter Ultras, becuase they're armored. Ultras will not change in ZvP. Immortals and Archons still stomp them. In fact, I'm not really sure what this change will do... It's nice, but you don't make a lot of 'light' units against Ultras anyway. Only thing that comes to mind. MARINES. Yeah more than double damage to Marines is more than good. However, Ultras will now do more damage to Archons as well, which is a nice plus. And increased damage against Hellions and Hellbats will also be good against mech, especially since those units were meant to be cheap, mineral-only damage buffers.
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I wonder what David Kim thinks about TVP mech. Is he of the opinion that Terran should go seeker missile to counter immortals/archons rather than EMP? Or is he fine with ghosts being a neccesity in a mech tvp composition?
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I think reaper is too fast for a ranged unit. (faster than a zerguling)
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On December 07 2012 06:06 LOLItsRyann wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:15 kcdc wrote: Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.
The change I'm most excited about is nerfing the infestor into submission in favor of more interesting, exciting units like the mutalisk and ultralisk. Lategame ZvP is completely reinvented from WOL to HOTS, and that's a very good thing. Look at this combination of HOTS changes:
-Infestor massively nerfed. No longer counters fast air units, much worse against blink stalkers and forcefields. IT's deal low damage to anything with armor upgrades and are killed by a single storm before they hatch.
-Tempest added. Counters broodlords but is slow and weak for cost against everything else.
-Ultralisk gainst +15 damage against zealots.
Zerg can't win with infestors and broodlords anymore. They can't play passively, mass spines and spores, and win. Broodlords are now a tactical siege unit rather than the primary late-game damage-dealer. Instead, ultras are the primary late-game unit since they're no longer countered by a wall of zealots tanking while immortals and archons DPS the ultras down. But you need to be active with the ultras because Protoss can mass immortals and archons and eventually out-class your army.
Blizz is definitely on the right track with making Zerg a more active, fun race. I'm pumped. Why do you say this? Immortals still hardcounter Ultras, becuase they're armored. Ultras will not change in ZvP. Immortals and Archons still stomp them. In fact, I'm not really sure what this change will do... It's nice, but you don't make a lot of 'light' units against Ultras anyway. Only thing that comes to mind. MARINES. Yeah more than double damage to Marines is more than good. You are not looking at the whole picture. The Vipers alone could make Ultras viable.
On December 07 2012 06:36 shin_toss wrote: I think reaper is too fast for a ranged unit. (faster than a zerguling) Zerg has 5 range Queens, 4 range Roaches and Zerglings on Creep, that are just as fast as Reaper. If you are talking about Reapers with upgraded speed, no, they aren't, Reapers with speed are as fast as Hellions, and Speedlings are faster than them.
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To summarize his thoughts on balance in sentence: We had to buff unit x because unit y got buffed We had to buff unit z because unit x got buffed
I love this patch <3.
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-As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army. he is definitely high. Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby. At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 07 2012 06:42 Sworm_MS wrote: -As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army. he is definitely high. Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby. At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit.
The infested terran nerf is pretty huge actually, the spell isn't particularly powerful in actual straight up engagements now. Means that you probably can't win with pure infestor anymore.
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Plus a range reduction of 1 like in the WoL patch, its a pretty big nerf.
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I feel they should change the early game in tvp. Doesnt anyone feel that its too protoss favored? Protoss is so save with previous called greedy builds with MSC while terran is more vulnerable than ever to blinked stalker allin with MSC and dts, since DS is so cheap. Widowmines wont attack them either, so terran have to get turrets at minute 6 every game. Maybe i jsut need to play more pressure builds ;D
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On December 07 2012 06:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:42 Sworm_MS wrote: -As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army. he is definitely high. Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby. At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit. The infested terran nerf is pretty huge actually, the spell isn't particularly powerful in actual straight up engagements now. Means that you probably can't win with pure infestor anymore.
And the -1 range. I haven't played with it and don't intend on making infestors if I don't have to and from zergs I talked to that -1 range is actually pretty big.
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On December 07 2012 06:42 Sworm_MS wrote: -As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army. he is definitely high. Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby. At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit. You are pretty high, actually, because Fungal nerfs together with Infested Terran nerfs are heavy nerfs. Those are just four nerfs on a single unit. You won't be seeing mass Infestors in the late game, they will be used for Fungal as support casters, so like 3-4 of them, basically.
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On December 07 2012 06:42 Sworm_MS wrote: -As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army. he is definitely high. Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby. At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit.
Cool, did you read the rest of the nerfs? Or are you purposefully leaving them unmentioned in your post.
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On December 07 2012 04:35 bLo0d wrote: 300/300 and +30 s build time for double medivac production seems overkill just for a cooldown speed boost. I hope that the buffed healing rate upgrade isn't being factored into the cost of the medivac since that's mostly a late game upgrade. Terran early openings are gonna get so screwed timewise and gaswise and with all the air buffs, cutting into viking production time is just brutal. Other than that everything looks sick.
I think you misunderstood the 150/150 and 110 secs, that is for the upgrade. Not the medivac itself, unless I'm failing to comprehend the notes properly
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On December 07 2012 07:00 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:35 bLo0d wrote: 300/300 and +30 s build time for double medivac production seems overkill just for a cooldown speed boost. I hope that the buffed healing rate upgrade isn't being factored into the cost of the medivac since that's mostly a late game upgrade. Terran early openings are gonna get so screwed timewise and gaswise and with all the air buffs, cutting into viking production time is just brutal. Other than that everything looks sick. I think you misunderstood the 150/150 and 110 secs, that is for the upgrade. Not the medivac itself, unless I'm failing to comprehend the notes properly
You're reading it correctly, he isn't. The medivac build cost/time remain the same.
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really excited to see how these changes play out! less infestor usage will make for more exciting games! as long as they can balance it so that zerg isn't crippled for not using them
the air and vehicle upgrades combined into 1 is also exciting , wish i had beta to test this out lol
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On December 07 2012 05:56 SolidMoose wrote: I think the biggest problem with combining mech and air together is that in a bio vs mech TvT, it will be almost impossible for the bio player to ever transition to air. I think it in general discourages bio play (maybe why they made a buff for medivacs.) I think they would be better off combining infantry + mech as ground upgrades. That would be a huge tank buff (faster upgrades) and everyone seems to want a tank buff.
This is a good point. It could very well be a problem. The two things I can say to counter this argument is that when a Terran goes bio they usually sprinkle in some tanks go for Vehicle attack upgrades in addition to bio upgrades, so they won't be THAT far behind. Also, if Raven HSM stays as it is, you won't need to have upgrades to have the HSM directly counter BC's.
In any case, the medivac buffs seem freaking ridiculous. So time will tell.
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On December 07 2012 06:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:42 Sworm_MS wrote: -As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army. he is definitely high. Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby. At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit. The infested terran nerf is pretty huge actually, the spell isn't particularly powerful in actual straight up engagements now. Means that you probably can't win with pure infestor anymore. I didn't talk about IT, why are you bringing it here? The main concern with infestors is FG, and believe me, making it projectile and decreasing its range by 1 does virtually a very, very little, almost nothing. FG should not hit air, otherwise it will be the same shit we have now.
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I like the intent to make mutas more viable again, but as long as the widow mine can attack air, I don't see them being used TvZ.
I really like the widow mine, but the fact that it can shut down harassment so effectively is bad imo.
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On December 07 2012 07:04 Sworm_MS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:49 Whitewing wrote:On December 07 2012 06:42 Sworm_MS wrote: -As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army. he is definitely high. Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby. At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit. The infested terran nerf is pretty huge actually, the spell isn't particularly powerful in actual straight up engagements now. Means that you probably can't win with pure infestor anymore. I didn't talk about IT, why are you bringing it here? The main concern with infestors is FG, and believe me, making it projectile and decreasing its range by 1 does virtually a very, very little, almost nothing. FG should not hit air, otherwise it will be the same shit we have now.
Making fungal projectile and -1 range is HUGE. 70 health eggs + the IT not receiving upgrades is also HUGE. Man it's like some people don't even play the game.
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On December 07 2012 07:06 happyness wrote: I like the intent to make mutas more viable again, but as long as the widow mine can attack air, I don't see them being used TvZ.
I really like the widow mine, but the fact that it can shut down harassment so effectively is bad imo.
Does the widow mine auto attack things that fly into its attack radius? Can't you clear mines by using overlords to draw fire?
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On December 07 2012 06:42 Sworm_MS wrote: -As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army. he is definitely high. Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby. At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit.
And have muta versus muta EVERY SINGLE zvz for all eternity? No, thanks.
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On December 07 2012 07:04 Sworm_MS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:49 Whitewing wrote:On December 07 2012 06:42 Sworm_MS wrote: -As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army. he is definitely high. Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby. At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit. The infested terran nerf is pretty huge actually, the spell isn't particularly powerful in actual straight up engagements now. Means that you probably can't win with pure infestor anymore. I didn't talk about IT, why are you bringing it here? The main concern with infestors is FG, and believe me, making it projectile and decreasing its range by 1 does virtually a very, very little, almost nothing. FG should not hit air, otherwise it will be the same shit we have now. No one believes you. If you don't think the infestor was heavily nerfed it's impossible to take you seriously.
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On December 07 2012 07:04 Sworm_MS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:49 Whitewing wrote:On December 07 2012 06:42 Sworm_MS wrote: -As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army. he is definitely high. Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby. At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit. The infested terran nerf is pretty huge actually, the spell isn't particularly powerful in actual straight up engagements now. Means that you probably can't win with pure infestor anymore. I didn't talk about IT, why are you bringing it here? The main concern with infestors is FG, and believe me, making it projectile and decreasing its range by 1 does virtually a very, very little, almost nothing. FG should not hit air, otherwise it will be the same shit we have now.
Making FG a projectile is pretty huge and makes FG less effective vs a great many things, coupled with decreasing it's range ... yeahhh it's a big nerf. Or did you want them to make it completely worthless? Because if they went much further with a nerf it would be pretty useless. Now it will still be useful but not staggeringly strong against everything.
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On December 07 2012 07:10 Grendel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:42 Sworm_MS wrote: -As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army. he is definitely high. Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby. At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit. And have muta versus muta EVERY SINGLE zvz for all eternity? No, thanks. You have fast hydras now. Relax.
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The Raven Change feels weird, they basically turned the HSM into a Yamato Cannon?
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On December 07 2012 07:10 Grendel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:42 Sworm_MS wrote: -As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army. he is definitely high. Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby. At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit. And have muta versus muta EVERY SINGLE zvz for all eternity? No, thanks.
Umm build spores. Make Queens. Use Speed Hydras.
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On December 07 2012 06:06 LOLItsRyann wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:15 kcdc wrote: Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.
The change I'm most excited about is nerfing the infestor into submission in favor of more interesting, exciting units like the mutalisk and ultralisk. Lategame ZvP is completely reinvented from WOL to HOTS, and that's a very good thing. Look at this combination of HOTS changes:
-Infestor massively nerfed. No longer counters fast air units, much worse against blink stalkers and forcefields. IT's deal low damage to anything with armor upgrades and are killed by a single storm before they hatch.
-Tempest added. Counters broodlords but is slow and weak for cost against everything else.
-Ultralisk gainst +15 damage against zealots.
Zerg can't win with infestors and broodlords anymore. They can't play passively, mass spines and spores, and win. Broodlords are now a tactical siege unit rather than the primary late-game damage-dealer. Instead, ultras are the primary late-game unit since they're no longer countered by a wall of zealots tanking while immortals and archons DPS the ultras down. But you need to be active with the ultras because Protoss can mass immortals and archons and eventually out-class your army.
Blizz is definitely on the right track with making Zerg a more active, fun race. I'm pumped. Why do you say this? Immortals still hardcounter Ultras, becuase they're armored. Ultras will not change in ZvP. Immortals and Archons still stomp them. In fact, I'm not really sure what this change will do... It's nice, but you don't make a lot of 'light' units against Ultras anyway. Only thing that comes to mind. MARINES. Yeah more than double damage to Marines is more than good.
I disagree. In fact I think this will open up the dreaded BL -> Ultra remax switch that is so common in ZvT. Think about it for a second:
How does Protoss stop BLs? Tempests. What is the worst possible unit you can make vs BLs? Immortals. Protoss will not be able to change their army composition fast enough to counter this tech switch since Ultras should rip through Zealots now. However with the change in the VR the possibility that the final end game unit composition for Protoss in PvZ might be skytoss now.
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On December 07 2012 07:16 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 07:10 Grendel wrote:On December 07 2012 06:42 Sworm_MS wrote: -As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army. he is definitely high. Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby. At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit. And have muta versus muta EVERY SINGLE zvz for all eternity? No, thanks. Umm build spores. Make Queens. Use Speed Hydras.
Be clever with your infestors, burrow move them into range then try to snap some of the mutas up, them mutas wont have detection with them but don't rely only on infestors (thank god, I've seen enough of them for a lifetime.) The more I think about it the more cool tactics this patch seems to open up.
@ above: Skytoss with templar, storm is always gonna be good late game for air zerg clumps/broodlings and they will crush ling support that always goes with ultras.
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On December 07 2012 07:08 RifleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 07:06 happyness wrote: I like the intent to make mutas more viable again, but as long as the widow mine can attack air, I don't see them being used TvZ.
I really like the widow mine, but the fact that it can shut down harassment so effectively is bad imo. Does the widow mine auto attack things that fly into its attack radius? Can't you clear mines by using overlords to draw fire?
You could but you are greatly reducing mutas mobility by having to have an overlord/overseer with you everywhere you go, plus that would take a lot more APM that might be used else where. Mutas are already hard to make work in WoL, with the WM I doubt zergs will go for them. Plus I don't like the fact that WM's can shut down harassment in TvT and TvP as well
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its interesting that they expect HSM to be used primarily for Colossus and Capital ship sniping. I wonder how necessary that will be, given the new Thor attack and the buff to air/mech upgrades. I wouldn't be surprised if people handle Colossi with Vikings/Thors, and instead use HSM to oneshot Immortals.
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On December 07 2012 07:39 awesomoecalypse wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if people handle Colossi with Vikings/Thors, and instead use HSM to oneshot Immortals.
This would actually be awesome.
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On December 07 2012 07:43 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 07:39 awesomoecalypse wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if people handle Colossi with Vikings/Thors, and instead use HSM to oneshot Immortals. This would actually be awesome.
HSM goes through hardened shields? O.o
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On December 07 2012 04:57 a176 wrote: The only thing I will comment on is that the combined mech-air upgrades for terran is just too much. You give this upgrade "in hopes of seeing larger number of banshees and BCs", what about protoss? I don't think there's anyone in the community, no matter what race they play, that wouldn't love to see increased skytoss usage with VRs, carriers, etc.
Vikings and banshees already do good damage for their purpose and now are essentially getting free upgrades to further their damage output beyond what was needed by the community. Protoss has more air units that serve more roles than the rather gimmicky terran air units. As terran one ship only shoots air, one shoots ground and one is a big fat joke in competitive play.
My guess is that they want to make an air-heavy protoss a viable playstyle by having a lot of variety in the starport units, starting from the early game. Meanwhile, a sky terran style will never be a feasible option by itself so they would rather make that playstyle an extension to mech.
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Yeah Terran air has always been supplementary to other forces in SCII. If HSM goes through hardened shields that's fucking ridiculous.
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On December 07 2012 07:49 Qwyn wrote: Yeah Terran air has always been supplementary to other forces in SCII. If HSM goes through hardened shields that's fucking ridiculous. Of course it does, it is not an missile like every other attack, it is a spell, and every spell goes through hardened shield, Yamato Cannon also goes through and old Thor's 250mm strike cannon also went through, don't know why this should be any different.
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Is the HSM still 125 energy?
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On December 07 2012 07:45 Infernal_dream wrote: HSM goes through hardened shields? O.o
Yes, it's a spell. All spells go through Hardened Shields.
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On December 07 2012 07:20 TheFrankOne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 07:16 GinDo wrote:On December 07 2012 07:10 Grendel wrote:On December 07 2012 06:42 Sworm_MS wrote: -As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army. he is definitely high. Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby. At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit. And have muta versus muta EVERY SINGLE zvz for all eternity? No, thanks. Umm build spores. Make Queens. Use Speed Hydras. Be clever with your infestors, burrow move them into range then try to snap some of the mutas up, them mutas wont have detection with them but don't rely only on infestors (thank god, I've seen enough of them for a lifetime.) The more I think about it the more cool tactics this patch seems to open up. @ above: Skytoss with templar, storm is always gonna be good late game for air zerg clumps/broodlings and they will crush ling support that always goes with ultras.
A lot of that had to do with Vortex, which is now gone. Otherwise they could just mass corruptor and spread them enough so they don't get raped by storms. But the fear is now the VR will be too strong vs corruptors which now might make skytoss too strong. However I still see the BL -> Ultra tech switch being a strong late game timing when the majority of the Protoss army is still ground units.
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Are some people really unhappy with the infestor nerf? Less range on fungal and projectile on fungal and less health on eggs (admittedly this one is pretty marginal) AND infested terrans don't get upgrades anymore (this one is big) qualifies as heavy in my books.
Pretty excited about medivac changes. Drops are gonna be a bitch now. Giving the Thor a real anti-air attack is cool I guess, but at the same time I really don't like the Thor much. It's a boring a-move unit and I don't really want to see more of it.
Faster mutas are gonna be annoying. Oracles are gonna be annoying. Faster Reapers are gonna be annoying. Cheaper DT shrine...just harassment everywhere in this patch. You can tell they're trying to move away from the turtling into deathball strategy that has become so dominant lately.
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The one thing I already don't like is tempest requiring fleet beacon while being nerfed. Also making the tempest a pure lategame anti-massive unit is super boring.
And the medivac chaneg seems insane.
The rest sounds interesting at the very least.
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I would love to see the muta stack again or in general stack for air units, so you can make them effective with micro. In broodwar zerg players were spending hours working on there muta micro, imo it should come back, so skill makes your units better and not something like a attack or health buff.
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The thing I really like about the Infestor nerfs is, apart from the upgrade nerf on IT's (which is good imo, but is sort of a generic nerf rather than one that promotes a micro response) is that they are nerfs that work by promoting countermicro.
Shorter range on the Infestor slightly expands the window for opponents to snipe the Infestor before it can get a shot off.
Projectile opens up the option to dodge with Phoenixes, Oracles, speed prisms, blink Stalkers, Stimmed Terran bio/reapers, the new speed boosted medivacs, and most Zerg units (especially since nearly all fights in ZvZ happen on creep).
Lower health on eggs promotes pickings them off with storms or tank fire.
Basically, the big difference between Infestors now and Infestors before is that now their core abilities all have a window where a prepared opponent can neutralize them with good reactions. IMO, thats a good direction to take with nerfs.
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I still think the widow mine shouldn't hit air. They can make mutas as fast as they like, it still doesn't make them attractive when they can be annihilated by a random, invisible, auto-firing unit before you even notice.
Seeker missile as single target is a little disappointing. For the massive charge-up time, I wouldn't mind if it still had splash.
I'm really, really scared of early medivac pressure with the speed boost, now. I think they should probably expedite the upgrade.
The dark shrine reduction is also kind of weird. They did this with the free seeker missile upgrade as well. If you want to buff something for the late game, reducing the cost is not the way to do it. All that does is make it easier to rush.
I'm also disappointed about losing mothership recall. Does anyone else think it's weird that the justification for nerfing recall is.... actually talking about vortex?
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I would like to see the radius of effect of blinding cloud increase. Marines and stalkers can easily micro out of the cloud so that leaves blinding cloud only effective against seige tanks.
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The reasoning behind the phoenix range change is incredibly poor. "We wanted to combat another change that came in the same patch and hasn't been tested yet outside our offices, if at all"
Congrats on making mutas even less viable in your attempt to make them halfway useful!
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On December 07 2012 09:42 yeastiality wrote: The reasoning behind the phoenix range change is incredibly poor. "We wanted to combat another change that came in the same patch and hasn't been tested yet outside our offices, if at all"
Congrats on making mutas even less viable in your attempt to make them halfway useful!
Soo are you saying they should only buff/nerf one thing at a time? Because that would be stupid, buffing/nerfing 1 race without adjusting the others to make sure the matchups stay even. Why not change many things at once and evaluate it? It saves time.
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On December 07 2012 04:05 mythandier wrote:David Kim has posted his thoughts behind the latest and greatest balance update for HotS. I think it's great to see his thought process on some of the changes - specifically the Terran changes. The post is very long so I've broken it up by race. Terran + Show Spoiler +Medivac
When we looked at various strategies and metagames throughout Wings of Liberty history, we felt that multi-directional Medivac drops were both unique and fun to watch, especially in combination with main army vs. main army plays. We aren’t seeing as much in the way of multi-pronged Medivac harass anymore, and wanted to add something fun that might help bring these Medivac tactics back to the forefront.
For this reason, we chose to give the Medivac a new speed boost ability that has a short cooldown. We want this ability to feel powerful and have a direct impact on the outcome of an engagement when it’s used. If Medivac timing issues arise in the future, we’ll probably slow it down by implementing an upgrade requirement for the speed boost, rather than nerf the strength of the ability itself.
Furthermore, we feel Terran bio compositions face many new threats in Heart of the Swarm. Constant Locust volleys from Swarm Hosts, the revamped Ultralisk, and Time Warp, in combination with splash damage, all tear through Bio units. We felt it was necessary to buff Terran infantry in the late game to account for some of these threats. As a result, we decided to change the “Caduceus Reactor” upgrade to increase the healing rate of Medivac’s by two.
Reaper
We want to encourage the use of Reapers as an early game option against Protoss. We think that in order for Reapers to be good in the TvP early game, they need enough movement speed to outrun Stalkers.
We are also hearing your feedback on how tough it is to deal with Reapers in TvT, but we’d like to really push Reapers to see their full potential before dialing back on them slightly. If Reapers need to be weaker against Marines in the future, we can reduce their bonus damage against light units.
Widow Mine
The Widow Mine wasn’t getting much mid to late game usage against Protoss, and its ability to hit cloaked units felt like a rather strange rule to have on this unit. As a result, we decided to remove this component from the Widow Mine.
In order to help Widow Mines come back into play during the later stages of the game, we gave it an upgrade to reduce burrow time. This will allow Widow Mines to be used more easily on offense when combined with either mech or bio based armies.
Thor
With units like Tempests, Brood Lords, and the revamped Void Ray, we felt that Factory units could use a more standard anti air attack. As such, we’ve given the Thor a new weapon that can be swapped with its anti-light, AoE weapon when it may be more useful for a particular situation.
Due to the weapon change mentioned above, we expect players will mass Thors more often in Heart of the Swarm. As a result, we’ve given the Thor a few more size/radius changes in order to prevent too many units from hiding behind them.
Raven
After exploring a range of options for the Raven’s Seeker Missile ability, we settled on a high-damage, single target version that will be good against large units. Brood Lords are quite powerful, Thors received buffs with this patch, Ultralisks are stronger than ever, and Colossi have always been a threat. As a result, we feel there are enough suitable targets to justify this change to Seeker Missile. Please check out this ability in game and let us know how it’s working in combination with different Terran unit compositions in Heart of the Swarm.
Hellbat
We wanted to buff Hellbats against Zealots without affecting ranged units too much. We decided to keep the Hellbat’s splash range the same, but feel the improved attack radius against melee units is a solid choice.
Armory upgrades
We wanted to encourage Terran mech play with this patch, and feel that we’re giving mech armies a huge buff by combining the Armory’s air and ground upgrades. As a side effect, these changes will also greatly benefit Terran air compositions. Initially, we want to try this change to see how it affects the game. We think it will be fun seeing Banshees and Battlecruisers become viable in the late game for Terran players.
Protoss + Show Spoiler +Mothership
Vortex has received a massive nerf with this patch. We don’t really like seeing Motherships in every PvZ game because the results are always all or nothing. You Vortex perfectly and win, or Vortex fails and you lose. We feel that it’s not a good thing for a single ability to have such a huge impact on the game.
We want other units, such as the Tempest, to take the place of the Mothership when combating Brood Lord and Infestor compositions. If necessary, Tempests can be buffed against Massive units to make this possible.
Oracle
We heard your feedback that players want to harass workers with the Oracle. We also felt that Oracle’s structure attack overlapped too much with our new direction for the Void Ray. For these reasons, we decided to go with an activated attack that is good against workers, but drains the Oracle’s energy. We feel this energy-based attack will help differentiate the Oracle from other air units that are effective against worker lines. With enough energy available, it will be possible to deal a lot of damage very quickly to an unprepared opponent.
Phoenix
We decided to increase the base attack range of the Phoenix to five in order to help Protoss players deal with the Mutalisk buffs in this patch. The Anion Pulse-Crystals upgrade still increases Phoenix range by two.
Dark Shrine cost reduction
We wanted the Dark Shrine to feel like a more desirable tech option for players. By reducing the cost of the Dark Shrine, Dark Templar can be utilized in more late game scenarios.
Tempest
We felt Tempests were countering too many late game tech options, and wanted to point Tempests more toward units like Colossi and Brood Lords. These Tempest weapon changes give us the freedom to increase damage as necessary to make sure those units are dealt with appropriately in Heart of the Swarm.
Void Ray
We felt that giving players control over the Void Ray’s charge up ability will make this unit a more appealing tech choice, and incentivize opponents to back away until the charge wears off. We’ve also aimed for damage numbers that will help Void Rays beat most armored units for cost. Zerg + Show Spoiler +Hydralisk
We felt that moving the Hydralisk speed upgrade to Lair tech would help Zerg players deal with new more effectively, especially when buffs to Protoss air units, heavy Infestor nerfs, and the need for an earlier six range counter to Widow Mines are taken into consideration.
Mutalisk
We felt some of the most fun plays for Zerg came in the form of Mutalisk-based board control, and wanted to encourage more of these tactics. We’ll continue exploring other options, because we’re not completely sure the speed buff in this patch is enough.
Swarm host
We felt a buff to the Swarm Host was necessary now that both Protoss and Terran air compositions are a lot stronger. The reason we went with a health buff is to allow easier repositioning of Swarm Hosts between Locust spawns. We think this type of positional play is one of the most fun ways to use Swarm Hosts, and wanted to promote more of it.
Infestor
For Heart of the Swarm, we want to push players to mass units like Hydralisks, Mutalisks, Swarm Hosts, or Ultralisks, rather than the Infestor. As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army.
Ultralisk
We wanted to make the Ultralisk much more deadly against ground units in Heart of the Swarm, and feel the damage buff in this patch accomplishes that goal. However, if this change isn’t enough to make Ultralisks awesome in the late game, we are prepared to make additional changes.
Burrow charge was cut because we believe it’s better for the Ultralisk to be an all-around powerful ground threat, than a teleporting anti armored unit. Viper
We made a minor tweak to Viper health in order to give it more survivability. Our next step with this caster unit is to evaluate its abilities to make sure they are powerful enough, if they aren’t already. Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7320452623
i think the medivac speed boost thing is gonna be ridiculous if they leave it the way it is. the cooldown is really, really short, like there's no reason the medivac can't be just zooming around 90% of the time. the ability itself i think is good, but i'd really like it to cost energy, because right now it costs nothing, it's just a massive point blank buff to the medivac.
i don't really understand the thor's second weapon mode. basically it sacrifices splash for higher single target damage? i guess that's fine but i dunno how useful it'll be (not that the original ability was of any use so no reason to complain.)
oracle to me still doesn't seem to have much of a point in the game. i just made a big post in another thread about the mothership so i'll pass on that.
hydralisk speed at lair is great. still think abduct is a lame mechanic but i can't complain about the unit having more health.
i'm pretty neutral on everything else. guess we'll see what happens.
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I like the changes except the reaper, how are zergs going to deal with that high move speed harass? Am I missing something from a previous patch change? This was a huge issue in early tvz where reapers started with the 2.95 ms and had a quick buff to around 3.6? And zerg couldn't catch them with lings and if you teched into roaches he would already have enough marauders to take you out completely. They nerfed reapers for that reason. I'm not sure how queens will deal with this but it might be alright. We'll have to see.
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On December 07 2012 12:04 Nacl(Draq) wrote: I like the changes except the reaper, how are zergs going to deal with that high move speed harass? Am I missing something from a previous patch change? This was a huge issue in early tvz where reapers started with the 2.95 ms and had a quick buff to around 3.6? And zerg couldn't catch them with lings and if you teched into roaches he would already have enough marauders to take you out completely. They nerfed reapers for that reason. I'm not sure how queens will deal with this but it might be alright. We'll have to see. Back then reapers outranged Roaches too so you could kite roaches and never get hit (if you did it right). That was another reason for the nerf. Also, Queens didn't have 5 range. Also, Reapers had their anti-building attack so en masse they could 1-2 shot spines.
Basically, things are different now.
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On December 07 2012 08:35 awesomoecalypse wrote: The thing I really like about the Infestor nerfs is, apart from the upgrade nerf on IT's (which is good imo, but is sort of a generic nerf rather than one that promotes a micro response) is that they are nerfs that work by promoting countermicro.
Shorter range on the Infestor slightly expands the window for opponents to snipe the Infestor before it can get a shot off.
Projectile opens up the option to dodge with Phoenixes, Oracles, speed prisms, blink Stalkers, Stimmed Terran bio/reapers, the new speed boosted medivacs, and most Zerg units (especially since nearly all fights in ZvZ happen on creep).
Lower health on eggs promotes pickings them off with storms or tank fire.
Basically, the big difference between Infestors now and Infestors before is that now their core abilities all have a window where a prepared opponent can neutralize them with good reactions. IMO, thats a good direction to take with nerfs.
This so much. It's almost like a dream. The nerfs are very well-thought out and made in a way that will increase gameplay options. The IT upgrade nerf doesn't necessarily promote counter-micro (egg health does), but IT were just out-right imbalanced so it's a good change and thankfully the days of sniping a full expansion + 30 workers in 10-15 seconds with 4 infestors, or winning battles against superior players that shouldn't be won will be gone.
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Its a mediocre patch.
Any other developer getting this much flak would have done better.
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On December 07 2012 12:38 mythandier wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 12:04 Nacl(Draq) wrote: I like the changes except the reaper, how are zergs going to deal with that high move speed harass? Am I missing something from a previous patch change? This was a huge issue in early tvz where reapers started with the 2.95 ms and had a quick buff to around 3.6? And zerg couldn't catch them with lings and if you teched into roaches he would already have enough marauders to take you out completely. They nerfed reapers for that reason. I'm not sure how queens will deal with this but it might be alright. We'll have to see. Back then reapers outranged Roaches too so you could kite roaches and never get hit (if you did it right). That was another reason for the nerf. Also, Queens didn't have 5 range. Also, Reapers had their anti-building attack so en masse they could 1-2 shot spines. Basically, things are different now.
Just to be nitpicky, actually reapers still outrange roaches by 0.5, and if you are quick you can attack and back up before the roach can attack. It's really hard to do consistently though, and would take too much time though anyways.
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On December 07 2012 13:36 Zombo Joe wrote: Its a mediocre patch.
Any other developer getting this much flak would have done better.
I agree. But their history has been so bad that this is, relatively speaking, great news. If they continue in this direction they may really do a good job in the long run.
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On December 07 2012 04:05 mythandier wrote: Oracle
We heard your feedback that players want to harass workers with the Oracle. This really makes the stupidity of their way of dealing with the community abundantly clear. Some times they ignore the community to "create their vision" and here they fake listening to the community as an "excuse" to realize something pretty stupid. "The community" has been equally vocal about the Oracle being overpowered and stupid ...
Either you listen to the community all the time OR you ignore it all the time. You dont pick the raisins that you like and present yourself as "the good guys who listen to the community". The middle road is possible, but you have to state all the arguments and all sides, but Blizzard doesnt even list all the changes in the patch so expecting them to be good with words seems to be too much. Discussing with the community has never been Browders strong point, so they most certainly arent going down the "middle road".
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The unified factory/starport upgrades is such a gigantic buff to the airmech style I used vs protoss in WOL, it's almost silly. I hope someone picks up that style, because I think that style is significantly more viable now. It almost makes me want to start playing again
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On December 07 2012 18:59 Quotidian wrote: The unified factory/starport upgrades is such a gigantic buff to the airmech style I used vs protoss in WOL, it's almost silly. I hope someone picks up that style, because I think that style is significantly more viable now. It almost makes me want to start playing again I agree. I'm thinking they will find some sort of middle ground if they go through with this change. Maybe a unified armor upgrade for ship and vehicle, but leave attack upgrades separate. Kind of like it is for zerg ground units, with melee, ranged and carapace. In any case, this is exciting.
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On December 07 2012 04:05 mythandier wrote:
Ultralisk
Burrow charge was cut because we believe it’s better for the Ultralisk to be an all-around powerful ground threat, than a teleporting anti armored unit. You can still "Blink" your Ultralisks ... just use Vipers for it to get up a cliff or into a bunch of bio. Since the Vipers will have full energy that wont be too difficult to do in larger numbers and with just a few Vipers. I cant wait for someone to "ignore" the large main army at the front of the base and just drag these baddies into the main base to wreak havoc. Maybe then Blizzard will wake up and see how terrible their spells are.
On December 07 2012 16:28 ledarsi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 13:36 Zombo Joe wrote: Its a mediocre patch.
Any other developer getting this much flak would have done better. I agree. But their history has been so bad that this is, relatively speaking, great news. If they continue in this direction they may really do a good job in the long run. Nah ... they only listen to the community when it is convenient for them and they dont think about consequenses or general strategy at all. Only their specific racial strategies (and the "data" from the ladder which fixes itself to 50/50 ratio all the time) are important to them and that is bad.
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On December 07 2012 19:23 Millet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 18:59 Quotidian wrote: The unified factory/starport upgrades is such a gigantic buff to the airmech style I used vs protoss in WOL, it's almost silly. I hope someone picks up that style, because I think that style is significantly more viable now. It almost makes me want to start playing again I agree. I'm thinking they will find some sort of middle ground if they go through with this change. Maybe a unified armor upgrade for ship and vehicle, but leave attack upgrades separate. Kind of like it is for zerg ground units, with melee, ranged and carapace. In any case, this is exciting.
It'll likely be kept how it is because Zerg has a vastly superior production mechanic relative to Terran.
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Overall good reasoning, although generally it can be summarized as "we buffed a lot, so we buffed the counter-options as well". However, two points I'm having trouble understanding:
Dark Shrine
We wanted the Dark Shrine to feel like a more desirable tech option for players. By reducing the cost of the Dark Shrine, Dark Templar can be utilized in more late game scenarios.
Reducing techcost is mostly a buff to early game, when resources are more scarce. Best way to improve late-game utilisation of units is by making upgrades scale better or by introducing high-tier upgrades that significantly improve the units' strength.
Swarm host
[..] The reason we went with a health buff is to allow easier repositioning of Swarm Hosts between Locust spawns. We think this type of positional play is one of the most fun ways to use Swarm Hosts, and wanted to promote more of it.
They could use a health buff indeed. But the biggest problem is that SWs and locusts get stuck running into eachother when you unburrow right after spawning the locusts. A health buff doesn't fix this problem, it only serves to counter a part of the problem: SWs getting killed while getting stuck. It doesn't help the locusts move forward any better. Nor does it help when you're playing safe and unborrow the SWs before an enemy appears.
A better fix would be to allow locusts to move underneath SWs, just like protoss units can walk underneath a Colossus.
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On December 07 2012 04:25 WeaponX.7 wrote: Its like blizzard doesnt understand what people like about terran mech. They like fucking tanks. Jesus christ people like the positional play of tanks with mech, nobody wants to go mass thor. Its probably the ugliest unit in the game. So what do they do? Make mass thor "viable" and combine air with mech upgrades. So every mech game will be mass thor into bc late game. Who the fuck wants to watch that. BC's and thors are both boring a-move units, but dont worry blizz thinks it will be "fun". Everytime I see an update for HotS I like it less.
Its mostly to deal with air units, and so that they cant just get fb all hard by ht. its a good change. and tanks will still be need as the primary damage dealer against the ground army. so if you think this buff will make people go mass thor over tanks i think youre wrong.
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United States4883 Posts
I think it's interesting that Blizzard is giving all the mech units an ability to "change their function" between hellions/hellbats, tanks sieged/unsieged, ground vikings/air vikings, and the new AA thor/anti-ground thor. In a way, it's cool because it allows mech players who can't keep up in production to better adapt to their opponent's instant tech changes. I would go so far as to say that allowing mech to transform a bunch gives it the viability to "tech change" along with the other 2 races.
On December 07 2012 20:31 ggOeHondaHHS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:25 WeaponX.7 wrote: Its like blizzard doesnt understand what people like about terran mech. They like fucking tanks. Jesus christ people like the positional play of tanks with mech, nobody wants to go mass thor. Its probably the ugliest unit in the game. So what do they do? Make mass thor "viable" and combine air with mech upgrades. So every mech game will be mass thor into bc late game. Who the fuck wants to watch that. BC's and thors are both boring a-move units, but dont worry blizz thinks it will be "fun". Everytime I see an update for HotS I like it less. Its mostly to deal with air units, and so that they cant just get fb all hard by ht. its a good change. and tanks will still be need as the primary damage dealer against the ground army. so if you think this buff will make people go mass thor over tanks i think youre wrong.
And I understand where WeaponX is coming from. I was a little sad that they made all these redonkulous changes and left the tank alone. However, I think it's a step in the right direction. With a little more work, hopefully things will come into play that make terran mech feel positional again. I don't think it's necessary to bm Blizzard after everything that just happened in this patch.
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So, first they said the medivac upgrade would make them heal from 9 to 15 health per second, but now in game it tells me it increases health regen by 2 (from 9 to 11)? When did that change happen, I seem to have missed it, or am I misreading something? Doesn't seem like a significant change to me at all if it stays like that.
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By the way...if you're happy with the new changes (including the "old" hellbat bio-mech change) feel free to buy me a cookie:
The following are two suggestions of mine that I posted in September: 1) http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6571567627 The Apok is a bio-mechanical combat support unit.
2) http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606901824
Upgrades Hyperdrive Caster: Scythe Energy Cost: 50 Speed Increase: 2.25 (6.5 total) Duration: 3 seconds Cooldown: 15 seconds Hotkey: H Description: Activating the ship’s anti-matter engines allows the ship to reach hypersonic speeds within the atmosphere. The Scythe greatly accelerates and reaches extreme break-away velocity for a short time. Researched from: Already researched
Now, maybe they're not exact copies of what was done and maybe it is just a coincidence. Then again. Maybe you can thank me later.
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On December 08 2012 00:03 mythandier wrote:By the way...if you're happy with the new changes (including the "old" hellbat bio-mech change) feel free to buy me a cookie: The following are two suggestions of mine that I posted in September: 1) http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6571567627 2) http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606901824Show nested quote +Upgrades Hyperdrive Caster: Scythe Energy Cost: 50 Speed Increase: 2.25 (6.5 total) Duration: 3 seconds Cooldown: 15 seconds Hotkey: H Description: Activating the ship’s anti-matter engines allows the ship to reach hypersonic speeds within the atmosphere. The Scythe greatly accelerates and reaches extreme break-away velocity for a short time. Researched from: Already researched Now, maybe they're not exact copies of what was done and maybe it is just a coincidence. Then again. Maybe you can thank me later.
Why did you not suggest a goddamned buff to the siege tank instead?
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On December 08 2012 00:52 mannerless wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 00:03 mythandier wrote:By the way...if you're happy with the new changes (including the "old" hellbat bio-mech change) feel free to buy me a cookie: The following are two suggestions of mine that I posted in September: 1) http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6571567627 The Apok is a bio-mechanical combat support unit. 2) http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606901824Upgrades Hyperdrive Caster: Scythe Energy Cost: 50 Speed Increase: 2.25 (6.5 total) Duration: 3 seconds Cooldown: 15 seconds Hotkey: H Description: Activating the ship’s anti-matter engines allows the ship to reach hypersonic speeds within the atmosphere. The Scythe greatly accelerates and reaches extreme break-away velocity for a short time. Researched from: Already researched Now, maybe they're not exact copies of what was done and maybe it is just a coincidence. Then again. Maybe you can thank me later. Why did you not suggest a goddamned buff to the siege tank instead? Because everyone was already doing that. I was offering some outside the box ideas instead.
I'm pretty sure they know how the community feels about the tanks.
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On December 08 2012 01:06 mythandier wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 00:52 mannerless wrote:On December 08 2012 00:03 mythandier wrote:By the way...if you're happy with the new changes (including the "old" hellbat bio-mech change) feel free to buy me a cookie: The following are two suggestions of mine that I posted in September: 1) http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6571567627 The Apok is a bio-mechanical combat support unit. 2) http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606901824Upgrades Hyperdrive Caster: Scythe Energy Cost: 50 Speed Increase: 2.25 (6.5 total) Duration: 3 seconds Cooldown: 15 seconds Hotkey: H Description: Activating the ship’s anti-matter engines allows the ship to reach hypersonic speeds within the atmosphere. The Scythe greatly accelerates and reaches extreme break-away velocity for a short time. Researched from: Already researched Now, maybe they're not exact copies of what was done and maybe it is just a coincidence. Then again. Maybe you can thank me later. Why did you not suggest a goddamned buff to the siege tank instead? Because everyone was already doing that. I was offering some outside the box ideas instead. I'm pretty sure they know how the community feels about the tanks. They also know how the community feels about the Carrier, the Battlecruiser, ... but does that mean they do something about it? Just take the Carrier and it is only now that they changed it in a really minor way ... and they didnt even put that in the patch notes FFS. That doesnt mean the Carrier is efficient enough to win games with it ...
Blizzard is notoriously stubborn when it comes to fixing old stuff and this new patch should show that they rather add more stuff than to balance the existing stuff first. Thus "new cool ideas" is the LAST THING we need, because it only gives them an excuse to carry on like they do ...
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Hydralisk are really bad so people dont use it. Buff air unit to force player to make them and suffer. lol
More seriously, the hydra is too gaz heavy considering you need 2 upgrades to just bring them in range of the target.
20 hp buff or gaz cost lowered to 35 seems a good way to start (more might be necessary).
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On December 08 2012 04:08 Sreka wrote: Hydralisk are really bad so people dont use it. Buff air unit to force player to make them and suffer. lol
More seriously, the hydra is too gaz heavy considering you need 2 upgrades to just bring them in range of the target.
20 hp buff or gaz cost lowered to 35 seems a good way to start (more might be necessary).
Ah hydra's aren't to bad when you have viper support. At least vs mech or protoss. I do think hydra's need a small buff though to AA though or maybe a little extra HP either or would make me happy.
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Everything looks good, but the Raven's Seeker Missile acts more like a Yamato Cannon. When will they work on the poor BCs soon?
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Hydra are glass cannon enough. You need either more hydras to increase army's total HP or more HP per hydra. I would rather go with the lowered gaz cost, since the current cost prevent you from building anything but lings with your hydras. And lings are bad in hots like a bit too bad imo. Also hydra/viper is available only in lategame (way too much gaz involved). And to be honest I dont see hydra / viper dealing with any of the late game composition of T or P.
The more I play, the more I feel the mid game air is better countered by nydus & queen play rather then hydras.
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Sounds great! I feel really satisfied
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On December 07 2012 20:15 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:05 mythandier wrote:
Ultralisk
Burrow charge was cut because we believe it’s better for the Ultralisk to be an all-around powerful ground threat, than a teleporting anti armored unit. You can still "Blink" your Ultralisks ... just use Vipers for it to get up a cliff or into a bunch of bio. Since the Vipers will have full energy that wont be too difficult to do in larger numbers and with just a few Vipers. I cant wait for someone to "ignore" the large main army at the front of the base and just drag these baddies into the main base to wreak havoc. Maybe then Blizzard will wake up and see how terrible their spells are. Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 16:28 ledarsi wrote:On December 07 2012 13:36 Zombo Joe wrote: Its a mediocre patch.
Any other developer getting this much flak would have done better. I agree. But their history has been so bad that this is, relatively speaking, great news. If they continue in this direction they may really do a good job in the long run. Nah ... they only listen to the community when it is convenient for them and they dont think about consequenses or general strategy at all. Only their specific racial strategies (and the "data" from the ladder which fixes itself to 50/50 ratio all the time) are important to them and that is bad. Wait... are you talking about the first part like it's a bad thing? Because that sounds awesome. And it's such a huge resource/supply/energy investment that it would have to be done intelligently, as well. This is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing.
Everything they've added increases the skill cap tremendously, adds more active player decisions, and increases "soft counter" interactions while decreasing "hard counter" interactions. What the heck are you unsatisfied about with this patch?
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I really can't wait to see just what these changes bring to the table. Numbers are always one thing but how the players deal with the changes and adapt to them will be the real deal for me. Not going to doom or praise the patch until things have settled with the patch
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I love this patch! Finally we get som guts from Blizzard! Can't wait for the result of this patch and then more big changes to help diverse gameplay and compositions! THANK YOU BLIZZARD!
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I really like the armory change. terran is the only race with 3 upgrade sets kinda. i need bio, mech and air upgrades. Zerg has 2.5 with double ground attack, then air upgrades, and toss just has ground and air, with sheilds, but sheilds are special
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On December 08 2012 04:16 hansonslee wrote:Everything looks good, but the Raven's Seeker Missile acts more like a Yamato Cannon. When will they work on the poor BCs soon?
With the tempest and viper and new HSM, BC's have no place in HotS
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Hydralisk cost 1 supply. There, I said it.
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BC are very viable now after going mech. insta 3/3 battlecruiser vs 2/0 air or whatever your opponent will have is very strong now. but yeah you will have to build other stuff with them to fight tempest, HSM and viper. but building some BC might be very strong now after meching because you will always have an upgrade advantage which is huge for BC.
On December 08 2012 08:45 Harbinger631 wrote: Hydralisk cost 1 supply. There, I said it.
wont happen although it would be the best thing ever ^^
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On December 07 2012 04:25 Virid wrote: Why did Blizzard do something like "Let's add a huge number of new threats for players to produce, and add their counters as well" for both Protoss and Terran, but not Zerg?
In other words, they used a very heavy hand with Terran and Protoss, but nearly every explanation for changes to Zerg ends with "we're not sure this is enough, let's wait and see."
It's going to be a rough couple of weeks for Zerg players in the beta.
Did you miss the hydralisk buff DK mentioned specifically for countering air units?
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Hydra to 1 supply. Been saying it since the WoL beta.
Also Roaches back to 1 supply. Although roaches would need to stat adjustments to match- the hydralisk is pretty much good to go as a 1 supply unit right now. Maybe reduce damage from 12 to 10, as in BW.
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I wish they would stop fiddling with the Swarm Host. Simply a less interesting variation of Lurker
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And the Swarm Host and Siege Tank should become 2 supply units so there can be more of them on the board.
And I would not be averse to giving the Swarm Host a normal-range burrowed attack of its own in addition to spawning locusts.
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United States7483 Posts
With vipers in the game, if you make hydralisks 1 supply, protoss will never beat a roach/hydra/viper army... ever. As it is, it often comes in pretty close between the two with proper positioning.
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On December 08 2012 11:55 Whitewing wrote: With vipers in the game, if you make hydralisks 1 supply, protoss will never beat a roach/hydra/viper army... ever. As it is, it often comes in pretty close between the two with proper positioning.
Buff psi storm size? And stalker HP? Or, instead of stalker HP buff, make Immortals 2 supply, a bit cheaper, and decrease their attack damage and greatly decrease their bonus against armored. 200 HP plus 100 hard shield makes them legitimately "Immortals" in numbers.
I also think you greatly underestimate the Colossus.
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On December 08 2012 06:12 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 20:15 Rabiator wrote:On December 07 2012 04:05 mythandier wrote:
Ultralisk
Burrow charge was cut because we believe it’s better for the Ultralisk to be an all-around powerful ground threat, than a teleporting anti armored unit. You can still "Blink" your Ultralisks ... just use Vipers for it to get up a cliff or into a bunch of bio. Since the Vipers will have full energy that wont be too difficult to do in larger numbers and with just a few Vipers. I cant wait for someone to "ignore" the large main army at the front of the base and just drag these baddies into the main base to wreak havoc. Maybe then Blizzard will wake up and see how terrible their spells are. On December 07 2012 16:28 ledarsi wrote:On December 07 2012 13:36 Zombo Joe wrote: Its a mediocre patch.
Any other developer getting this much flak would have done better. I agree. But their history has been so bad that this is, relatively speaking, great news. If they continue in this direction they may really do a good job in the long run. Nah ... they only listen to the community when it is convenient for them and they dont think about consequenses or general strategy at all. Only their specific racial strategies (and the "data" from the ladder which fixes itself to 50/50 ratio all the time) are important to them and that is bad. Wait... are you talking about the first part like it's a bad thing? Because that sounds awesome. And it's such a huge resource/supply/energy investment that it would have to be done intelligently, as well. This is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. Everything they've added increases the skill cap tremendously, adds more active player decisions, and increases "soft counter" interactions while decreasing "hard counter" interactions. What the heck are you unsatisfied about with this patch? Being able to drag your own Ultralisks into the enemys main base or something similar is TERRIBLE, because it really destroys any positional play whatsoever AND it adds even more mobility to a race which does not need it! And this is only the use of the spell on a friendly target and not the "I grab your big and expensive units from the back and there is nothing you can do against it because the spell is instant and Blizzard just buffed the hit points of the Viper anyways to make it better".
Don't you guys realize that POWER needs to be balanced and that this kind of "fun and exciting" shit is simply too good to be in the game?
EDIT: Just looking at the new KeSPA map BIFROST makes me see tons of vulnerable spots where this kind of circumventing of a front can be abused. Too much mobility really limits positional play and there isnt enough of that in the game already.
EDIT 2: The game was won by abusing one of the most broken spells in the game: Forcefield ... and yet Blizzard refuses to learn and adds more abuseable spells to the game ... to every race except Terran, so I guess its balanced, right?
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You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be.
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On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote: You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain.
If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side.
----
Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore!
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On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote: You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain. If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side. ---- Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore! Is this a strategy that can be mitigated by...
Map design? Building placement? Defensive structures? Map control? Maintaining pressure on the opponent? Decision-making? Unit control?
How is this any different from drop into base ---> Nydus retreat? (Wouldn't this latter option actually be a cheaper total investment, allow more flexibility, and not be energy dependent?)
As to your second point... Will the speed boost end up costing energy? Will any other tweaks to it be made? Will it provide for enough exciting moments that wouldn't have been possible without it to cancel out excitement lost? Even if not, will the changes on net bring more excitement to this game?
You need to use your brain more. To ask yourself more questions and break yourself out of your myopic viewpoints, to answer said questions, and most importantly to recognize which questions none of us can possibly have the answer to yet.
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On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote: You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain. If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side. As a terran I really dont see this as a problem, let alone unbalanced. If a zerg uses his vipers to pull back ultras I would say it was very nicely microd of him. And that he probably would have done alot better by using it on enemy units/blinding cloud/etc. A whole bunch of vipers on standby just for retreating seems like a bad investment to me.
Then getting into the enemy base: Vipers can only pull towards them, so they must be hanging above your main base pulling ultras in? Really I just dont see that happening often. A few missile turrets will make that an expensive joke. A nydus worm seems to me like a way more viable solution if you want to do that.
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On December 08 2012 17:21 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote: You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain. If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side. ---- Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore! Is this a strategy that can be mitigated by... Map design? Building placement? Defensive structures? Map control? Maintaining pressure on the opponent? Decision-making? Unit control? How is this any different from drop into base ---> Nydus retreat? (Wouldn't this latter option actually be a cheaper total investment, allow more flexibility, and not be energy dependent?) As to your second point... Will the speed boost end up costing energy? Will any other tweaks to it be made? Will it provide for enough exciting moments that wouldn't have been possible without it to cancel out excitement lost? Even if not, will the changes on net bring more excitement to this game? You need to use your brain more. To ask yourself more questions and break yourself out of your myopic viewpoints, to answer said questions, and most importantly to recognize which questions none of us can possibly have the answer to yet. 1. Drop/Nydus require additional expense and Viper is much more flexible since it can be used offensively and has some other spell as well. Drop/Nydus are ok, but the incredible flexibility afforded by the Viper beats them easily. In addition to this the Viper isnt limited by energy as much as any other spellcaster in the game due to their ability to drain that from buildings. Thus you only need to get 2-3 of them instead of 12+ as for the Infestors.
2. Obviously you can balance these kinds of spells by adjusting the maps, but that is going to make the maps rather limited, isnt it? Main bases are going to have WIDE spaces of emptiness surrounding them (killing any Blink tactics as well) and the centers are going to be wide open to make such useage unnecessary. BORING DESIGN. Havent you noticed how there arent any more gold minerals in tournament maps? I wonder why that is ... maybe because the maps are used to balance the MULE? Putting such balancing on the map designs responsibility is bad, because it limits map makers.
3. How can you achieve map control with an immobile mech army? Or any non-Zerg army? To kill one Ultralisk you need A LOT of firepower and thus this can easily be a "1 Viper, 1 Ultralisk harrass" and rather efficient ... especially now after Blizzard decided that the Ultralisk needs to be good against everything.
4. Defensive structures ... yeah this might prevent Vipers from getting close, but the Zerg might even be smart and bring an Overlord to be the first decoy target. So it isnt really going to prevent the "Viper drop" from happening and once a single Ultralisk is in they are going to kill the turrets and any repairing SCVs easily with just a few of the new "good against everything" attacks.
5. "Maintaining pressure on the opponent? Decision-making? Unit control?" are just empty phrases you threw out there to increase the size of your list, but none of them really work against such an assault on a main base by one or just a few sets of Ultralisks and Vipers.
As to the second point: The boos ability is listed with a cooldown and thus most likely will NOT require energy, but in case it does ... the reduced cost for healing will probably make sure they will have enough and if the ability costs too much then what is the point of the ability if it prevents the main function of the medivac? Either its a free and cooldown based skill OR it becomes a waste of energy which cant be used after a major battle anyways.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote: You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain. If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side. wait, so you're against the idea that people will use vipers to yank ultralisks in and out of basses?
do you not like awesome?
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On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote: You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain. If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side. ---- Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore!
Just stop, for the love of god. It is so obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about it's really starting to get on my nerves and i'm pretty sure i'm not the only one. Talk balance on maps all you want but pulling future metagame developments and how they would mean an autowin out of your ass when there is no proof of it whatsoever(disregarding the many many reasons why what you're saying is bullshit in the first place) has no place in this thread.
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What if the Oracle had a spell that could siphon or abduct minerals/gas from workers? Make it a channeled ability and cast it in the mineral line and watch as mined minerals are taken away from workers' hands and to the Oracle. Thoughts..?
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On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote: You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain. If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side. ---- Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore!
You're pretty crazy. I mean it's not like they couldn't do that anyway with overlord drops/nydus if they wanted.
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lol at least something to laugh as a zerg player after this patch :D thanks rabiator.
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On December 07 2012 04:56 IreScath wrote: I'm just a little worried at how they're balancing this... especially protoss... with all these units with casts/abilities.
Including the core toss as 7! (lumped core and warp prism as 1).. Its really starting to feel like WC3 in game instead of Starcraft 2... I made a more detailed post in the thread on bnet forums (same account name)....
And I think that trend sucks for both the player of the race AND the opponents.
Yep, too many abilities to micro.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 08 2012 13:12 ledarsi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 11:55 Whitewing wrote: With vipers in the game, if you make hydralisks 1 supply, protoss will never beat a roach/hydra/viper army... ever. As it is, it often comes in pretty close between the two with proper positioning. Buff psi storm size? And stalker HP? Or, instead of stalker HP buff, make Immortals 2 supply, a bit cheaper, and decrease their attack damage and greatly decrease their bonus against armored. 200 HP plus 100 hard shield makes them legitimately "Immortals" in numbers. I also think you greatly underestimate the Colossus.
I'm not underestimating the colossus, just pointing out that vipers actually negate colossi. Abduct them into your army or blinding cloud the whole army and force protoss to back off.
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I for one really like these changes, and i think they put alot of thought into it. also, it's not easy to keep all the races happy. Every race always thinks the other is OP. All you guys are always so negativ about changes to the game. What's up with that.
the only thing I'm a little worried about are the widow mines. for a cashual gamer (like me), this could be really frustrating. walking with the army onto the map and suppendtly upps, all units gon. what happend. who just killed my army? lol I think there should not be such a cloaked unit that is so easy and fast to get. (by the way, I'm a terran player)
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Good start. I'm not satisfied with all of these, but they've caught my interest and made me want to see what they do next.
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On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:
Rofl ... really ... use your brain.
If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side.
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Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore!
I usually agree with your posts Rabiator but in this case you're just wrong. As dumb as the reworked seeker missile is, it does provide a counter to the "strategy" of pulling your ultralisks back by using the new seeker missile to focus down the vipers if they get too close. Even if 3 seconds is "enough" to pull the ultralisk back, the sacrifice of a viper to do so "should" be enough incentive not to do it. Even if you don't have seeker missiles I think 4-5 vikings is probably going to be a staple in the matchup considering how strong vipers are anyway, in addition to the fact that all mech upgrades are tied together.
And the Medivac speed isn't that bad if it is done comparatively to the speed of the units on the ground and air. Currently the medivac is a lot slower than many units on the ground that can focus them down as well as many units in the air. Considering that zerg now have imba 4 speed mutalisks, medivacs need all the speed boosts they can get. I don't like a "push one button instantly get away" option but 10-20% speed boost isn't that bad in my eyes.
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Can someone please explain to me how making the DT shrine cost 100/100 (reducing gas cost by 150) does not just speed up DT rushes and make them more powerful.
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On December 07 2012 06:06 LOLItsRyann wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:15 kcdc wrote: Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.
The change I'm most excited about is nerfing the infestor into submission in favor of more interesting, exciting units like the mutalisk and ultralisk. Lategame ZvP is completely reinvented from WOL to HOTS, and that's a very good thing. Look at this combination of HOTS changes:
-Infestor massively nerfed. No longer counters fast air units, much worse against blink stalkers and forcefields. IT's deal low damage to anything with armor upgrades and are killed by a single storm before they hatch.
-Tempest added. Counters broodlords but is slow and weak for cost against everything else.
-Ultralisk gainst +15 damage against zealots.
Zerg can't win with infestors and broodlords anymore. They can't play passively, mass spines and spores, and win. Broodlords are now a tactical siege unit rather than the primary late-game damage-dealer. Instead, ultras are the primary late-game unit since they're no longer countered by a wall of zealots tanking while immortals and archons DPS the ultras down. But you need to be active with the ultras because Protoss can mass immortals and archons and eventually out-class your army.
Blizz is definitely on the right track with making Zerg a more active, fun race. I'm pumped. Why do you say this? Immortals still hardcounter Ultras, becuase they're armored. Ultras will not change in ZvP. Immortals and Archons still stomp them. In fact, I'm not really sure what this change will do... It's nice, but you don't make a lot of 'light' units against Ultras anyway. Only thing that comes to mind. MARINES. Yeah more than double damage to Marines is more than good. This is such a weird comment. It's like saying you'll never see colossi vs Zerg because corruptors "hardcounter" them. Armies don't work like that in SC2. When was the last time you saw a pure ultra army against a pure archon/immortal army? Never? Right.
In WoL, if Z goes for ultras, you see some ultras and a ton of zerglings and maybe some banelings. P responds with a few immortals (usually has only 1 robo), a bunch of zealots, and archons with the left-over gas.
The zealots are critical for tanking damage because P can't afford a lot of archons and can't mass-produce immortals (and if P did get 4 robos to mass-produce immortals, they'd open up a bunch of new vulnerabilities). Now the ultras will mow through the zealot wall much more quickly which will make the Zerg composition much stronger.
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On December 09 2012 01:47 Communism wrote: Can someone please explain to me how making the DT shrine cost 100/100 (reducing gas cost by 150) does not just speed up DT rushes and make them more powerful. It doesn't speed them up because if you're going for a WoL DT rush, you've planned your build so that you have 250 gas right when your twilight council finishes. There speed-limiting factor was construction time for the buildings, not resource accumulation. The new HoTS patch doesn't change the construction time, so the DT rush will hit at approximately the same timing as in WoL. The difference is that the rush will be less of a commitment because you'll have 150 gas to spend elsewhere.
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On December 07 2012 04:25 WeaponX.7 wrote: Its like blizzard doesnt understand what people like about terran mech. They like fucking tanks. Jesus christ people like the positional play of tanks with mech, nobody wants to go mass thor. Its probably the ugliest unit in the game. So what do they do? Make mass thor "viable" and combine air with mech upgrades. So every mech game will be mass thor into bc late game. Who the fuck wants to watch that. BC's and thors are both boring a-move units, but dont worry blizz thinks it will be "fun". Everytime I see an update for HotS I like it less.
Blizzard will never understand Mech... and the Warhound was evidence of that. But they just keep adding gimmicks to the game like the Widow Mine, Abduct and the Oracle who either can end the game with their damage or do nothing if countered and lose the game for their player. And they have to nerf said gimmicks because they are overpowered and change the way to game works, meaning that these gimmicky plays do less and less... and we end up back in the same place.
HOTS is moving in such a bad direction, at this point I think they need to hit the reset button and try again.
When pros get their hands on Abduct, they'll eat Protoss alive. And if you nerf the ability it becomes useless. It was a bad idea in the first place. There is too many all or nothing abilities in SC2 like Abduct in the game.
And what exactly is Protoss supposed to build late game vs Mech? Carriers still take 120 seconds to build and then you need 32 more seconds to get to max Interceptors...
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On December 08 2012 23:56 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote: You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain. If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side. ---- Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore! You're pretty crazy. I mean it's not like they couldn't do that anyway with overlord drops/nydus if they wanted. Isnt it obvious? To use drops you have to basically research two upgrades and for Nydus you have to make sure your worm doesnt get killed before it gets out. The Viper can do that AND MORE ... if you simply restrict yourself to a few big units. I am fine with Nydus and drops, but with Vipers it gets A LOT easier with those buffed Ultralisks.
On December 08 2012 23:12 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote: You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain. If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side. ---- Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore! Just stop, for the love of god. It is so obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about it's really starting to get on my nerves and i'm pretty sure i'm not the only one. Talk balance on maps all you want but pulling future metagame developments and how they would mean an autowin out of your ass when there is no proof of it whatsoever(disregarding the many many reasons why what you're saying is bullshit in the first place) has no place in this thread. If you cant come up with crazy ideas to use the new skills and judge if they are possibly too strong that is your problem, but dont blame me for doing so and coming to the conclusion that its a terrible idea. You can ignore my warning if you want, but its out there and we will see if it is viable or not when the expansion goes live. Personally I feel the Viper is completely broken in its flexibility ... maybe even more so than the Infestor in small numbers.
There are enough broken abilities in the game right now that can be only balanced by limiting the creativity of mapmakers as todays game on Bifrost showed. Sadly Blizzard refuses to fix the basics first and they add even more terrible abilities to the game which the somewhat random changes - instead of just tweaking - to HotS units shows.
On December 09 2012 01:37 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:
Rofl ... really ... use your brain.
If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side.
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Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore! I usually agree with your posts Rabiator but in this case you're just wrong. As dumb as the reworked seeker missile is, it does provide a counter to the "strategy" of pulling your ultralisks back by using the new seeker missile to focus down the vipers if they get too close. Even if 3 seconds is "enough" to pull the ultralisk back, the sacrifice of a viper to do so "should" be enough incentive not to do it. Even if you don't have seeker missiles I think 4-5 vikings is probably going to be a staple in the matchup considering how strong vipers are anyway, in addition to the fact that all mech upgrades are tied together. And the Medivac speed isn't that bad if it is done comparatively to the speed of the units on the ground and air. Currently the medivac is a lot slower than many units on the ground that can focus them down as well as many units in the air. Considering that zerg now have imba 4 speed mutalisks, medivacs need all the speed boosts they can get. I don't like a "push one button instantly get away" option but 10-20% speed boost isn't that bad in my eyes. A lot of times Medivacs in the heat of battle are "unmicroed" and left hanging back over the battlefield instead of being pulled back during the battle as well. Bad micro shouldnt be made less punishable by adding a speed boost. Such a speed boost will also allow Medivacs to maybe get past a single turret and still deliver their payload. That is basically saying "turtle more" and makes it too easy to deliver drops due to the reduced reaction time which the incoming Medivacs allow for the defender ... making drops even more efficient than they already are.
Blizzard has the tendency to balance the game through the "dont let them get there" strategy and that is bad. Drop harrassment is one of the very few ways in which Terrans can really fight back Zerg once they have developed a map presence. They should have the ability to do that with units head to head.
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United Kingdom12011 Posts
Does anyone else get the feeling that fungal is still broken?
You can dodge the initial one sure, but if you get caught once it's the same issue as before. There's no way to avoid having it chained on you and all your air units die if you accidentally clump once and get hit.
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On December 11 2012 21:53 Qikz wrote: Does anyone else get the feeling that fungal is still broken?
You can dodge the initial one sure, but if you get caught once it's the same issue as before. There's no way to avoid having it chained on you and all your air units die if you accidentally clump once and get hit. I don't think its that broken. Even chaining it is much more difficult now that its only 8 range and you have to factor in the travel time of the projectile.
I barely see infestors any more, zergs seem to prefer ultralisks and vipers in their lategame ZvT.
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On December 11 2012 21:53 Qikz wrote: Does anyone else get the feeling that fungal is still broken?
You can dodge the initial one sure, but if you get caught once it's the same issue as before. There's no way to avoid having it chained on you and all your air units die if you accidentally clump once and get hit. Actually there's potential for some pimp play now, imagine someone like MKP suiciding individual marines to block FG projectiles. Would be cool to see.
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This actually makes me a bit interested to use my beta-key... Great points all in all!
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Has carrier been buffed or anything? Like introducing micro mechanics like Liquid`Nony suggested?
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United Kingdom12011 Posts
On December 11 2012 22:58 Black[CAT] wrote: Has carrier been buffed or anything? Like introducing micro mechanics like Liquid`Nony suggested?
Yeah the leash range attack mechanic is back. I tried going carriers against the AI one game in a test map and I still have no idea how people do it so well :p
I don't think its that broken. Even chaining it is much more difficult now that its only 8 range and you have to factor in the travel time of the projectile.
I just mean it still seems broken in the fact I don't think you should be allowed to chain it. If you get your air units caught once, due to the acceleration time of your units most of the time you'll get chained anyway since it's not exactly that hard to do, so you find yourself in the same situation that fungal can kill air units on it's own without any real support to attack it.
Now they've made Hydras and stuff better, would it not be a fine idea to say Fungal shouldn't damage air/ground?
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