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On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote:
You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be.
Rofl ... really ... use your brain.
If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side.
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Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore!
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On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote:
You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain. If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side. ---- Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore! Is this a strategy that can be mitigated by...
Map design?
Building placement?
Defensive structures?
Map control?
Maintaining pressure on the opponent?
Decision-making?
Unit control?
How is this any different from drop into base ---> Nydus retreat? (Wouldn't this latter option actually be a cheaper total investment, allow more flexibility, and not be energy dependent?)
As to your second point...
Will the speed boost end up costing energy?
Will any other tweaks to it be made?
Will it provide for enough exciting moments that wouldn't have been possible without it to cancel out excitement lost?
Even if not, will the changes on net bring more excitement to this game?
You need to use your brain more. To ask yourself more questions and break yourself out of your myopic viewpoints, to answer said questions, and most importantly to recognize which questions none of us can possibly have the answer to yet.
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On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote:
You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain. If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side.
As a terran I really dont see this as a problem, let alone unbalanced. If a zerg uses his vipers to pull back ultras I would say it was very nicely microd of him. And that he probably would have done alot better by using it on enemy units/blinding cloud/etc. A whole bunch of vipers on standby just for retreating seems like a bad investment to me.
Then getting into the enemy base: Vipers can only pull towards them, so they must be hanging above your main base pulling ultras in? Really I just dont see that happening often. A few missile turrets will make that an expensive joke. A nydus worm seems to me like a way more viable solution if you want to do that.
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On December 08 2012 17:21 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote:
You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain. If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side. ---- Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore! Is this a strategy that can be mitigated by... Map design? Building placement? Defensive structures? Map control? Maintaining pressure on the opponent? Decision-making? Unit control? How is this any different from drop into base ---> Nydus retreat? (Wouldn't this latter option actually be a cheaper total investment, allow more flexibility, and not be energy dependent?) As to your second point... Will the speed boost end up costing energy? Will any other tweaks to it be made? Will it provide for enough exciting moments that wouldn't have been possible without it to cancel out excitement lost? Even if not, will the changes on net bring more excitement to this game? You need to use your brain more. To ask yourself more questions and break yourself out of your myopic viewpoints, to answer said questions, and most importantly to recognize which questions none of us can possibly have the answer to yet.
1. Drop/Nydus require additional expense and Viper is much more flexible since it can be used offensively and has some other spell as well. Drop/Nydus are ok, but the incredible flexibility afforded by the Viper beats them easily. In addition to this the Viper isnt limited by energy as much as any other spellcaster in the game due to their ability to drain that from buildings. Thus you only need to get 2-3 of them instead of 12+ as for the Infestors.
2. Obviously you can balance these kinds of spells by adjusting the maps, but that is going to make the maps rather limited, isnt it? Main bases are going to have WIDE spaces of emptiness surrounding them (killing any Blink tactics as well) and the centers are going to be wide open to make such useage unnecessary. BORING DESIGN. Havent you noticed how there arent any more gold minerals in tournament maps? I wonder why that is ... maybe because the maps are used to balance the MULE? Putting such balancing on the map designs responsibility is bad, because it limits map makers.
3. How can you achieve map control with an immobile mech army? Or any non-Zerg army? To kill one Ultralisk you need A LOT of firepower and thus this can easily be a "1 Viper, 1 Ultralisk harrass" and rather efficient ... especially now after Blizzard decided that the Ultralisk needs to be good against everything.
4. Defensive structures ... yeah this might prevent Vipers from getting close, but the Zerg might even be smart and bring an Overlord to be the first decoy target. So it isnt really going to prevent the "Viper drop" from happening and once a single Ultralisk is in they are going to kill the turrets and any repairing SCVs easily with just a few of the new "good against everything" attacks.
5. "Maintaining pressure on the opponent? Decision-making? Unit control?" are just empty phrases you threw out there to increase the size of your list, but none of them really work against such an assault on a main base by one or just a few sets of Ultralisks and Vipers.
As to the second point:
The boos ability is listed with a cooldown and thus most likely will NOT require energy, but in case it does ... the reduced cost for healing will probably make sure they will have enough and if the ability costs too much then what is the point of the ability if it prevents the main function of the medivac? Either its a free and cooldown based skill OR it becomes a waste of energy which cant be used after a major battle anyways.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote:
You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain. If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side.
wait, so you're against the idea that people will use vipers to yank ultralisks in and out of basses?
do you not like awesome?
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On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote:
You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain. If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side. ---- Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore!
Just stop, for the love of god. It is so obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about it's really starting to get on my nerves and i'm pretty sure i'm not the only one. Talk balance on maps all you want but pulling future metagame developments and how they would mean an autowin out of your ass when there is no proof of it whatsoever(disregarding the many many reasons why what you're saying is bullshit in the first place) has no place in this thread.
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What if the Oracle had a spell that could siphon or abduct minerals/gas from workers? Make it a channeled ability and cast it in the mineral line and watch as mined minerals are taken away from workers' hands and to the Oracle. Thoughts..?
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On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote:
You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain. If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side. ---- Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore!
You're pretty crazy. I mean it's not like they couldn't do that anyway with overlord drops/nydus if they wanted.
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lol at least something to laugh as a zerg player after this patch :D thanks rabiator. 
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On December 07 2012 04:56 IreScath wrote:
I'm just a little worried at how they're balancing this... especially protoss... with all these units with casts/abilities.
Including the core toss as 7! (lumped core and warp prism as 1).. Its really starting to feel like WC3 in game instead of Starcraft 2... I made a more detailed post in the thread on bnet forums (same account name)....
And I think that trend sucks for both the player of the race AND the opponents.
Yep, too many abilities to micro.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 08 2012 13:12 ledarsi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 11:55 Whitewing wrote:
With vipers in the game, if you make hydralisks 1 supply, protoss will never beat a roach/hydra/viper army... ever. As it is, it often comes in pretty close between the two with proper positioning. Buff psi storm size? And stalker HP? Or, instead of stalker HP buff, make Immortals 2 supply, a bit cheaper, and decrease their attack damage and greatly decrease their bonus against armored. 200 HP plus 100 hard shield makes them legitimately "Immortals" in numbers. I also think you greatly underestimate the Colossus.
I'm not underestimating the colossus, just pointing out that vipers actually negate colossi. Abduct them into your army or blinding cloud the whole army and force protoss to back off.
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I for one really like these changes, and i think they put alot of thought into it. also, it's not easy to keep all the races happy. Every race always thinks the other is OP. All you guys are always so negativ about changes to the game. What's up with that.
the only thing I'm a little worried about are the widow mines. for a cashual gamer (like me), this could be really frustrating. walking with the army onto the map and suppendtly upps, all units gon. what happend. who just killed my army? lol
I think there should not be such a cloaked unit that is so easy and fast to get. (by the way, I'm a terran player)
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Good start. I'm not satisfied with all of these, but they've caught my interest and made me want to see what they do next.
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On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:
Rofl ... really ... use your brain.
If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side.
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Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore!
I usually agree with your posts Rabiator but in this case you're just wrong. As dumb as the reworked seeker missile is, it does provide a counter to the "strategy" of pulling your ultralisks back by using the new seeker missile to focus down the vipers if they get too close. Even if 3 seconds is "enough" to pull the ultralisk back, the sacrifice of a viper to do so "should" be enough incentive not to do it. Even if you don't have seeker missiles I think 4-5 vikings is probably going to be a staple in the matchup considering how strong vipers are anyway, in addition to the fact that all mech upgrades are tied together.
And the Medivac speed isn't that bad if it is done comparatively to the speed of the units on the ground and air. Currently the medivac is a lot slower than many units on the ground that can focus them down as well as many units in the air. Considering that zerg now have imba 4 speed mutalisks, medivacs need all the speed boosts they can get. I don't like a "push one button instantly get away" option but 10-20% speed boost isn't that bad in my eyes.
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Can someone please explain to me how making the DT shrine cost 100/100 (reducing gas cost by 150) does not just speed up DT rushes and make them more powerful.
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On December 07 2012 06:06 LOLItsRyann wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:15 kcdc wrote:
Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.
The change I'm most excited about is nerfing the infestor into submission in favor of more interesting, exciting units like the mutalisk and ultralisk. Lategame ZvP is completely reinvented from WOL to HOTS, and that's a very good thing. Look at this combination of HOTS changes:
-Infestor massively nerfed. No longer counters fast air units, much worse against blink stalkers and forcefields. IT's deal low damage to anything with armor upgrades and are killed by a single storm before they hatch.
-Tempest added. Counters broodlords but is slow and weak for cost against everything else.
-Ultralisk gainst +15 damage against zealots.
Zerg can't win with infestors and broodlords anymore. They can't play passively, mass spines and spores, and win. Broodlords are now a tactical siege unit rather than the primary late-game damage-dealer. Instead, ultras are the primary late-game unit since they're no longer countered by a wall of zealots tanking while immortals and archons DPS the ultras down. But you need to be active with the ultras because Protoss can mass immortals and archons and eventually out-class your army.
Blizz is definitely on the right track with making Zerg a more active, fun race. I'm pumped. Why do you say this? Immortals still hardcounter Ultras, becuase they're armored. Ultras will not change in ZvP. Immortals and Archons still stomp them. In fact, I'm not really sure what this change will do... It's nice, but you don't make a lot of 'light' units against Ultras anyway. Only thing that comes to mind. MARINES. Yeah more than double damage to Marines is more than good.
This is such a weird comment. It's like saying you'll never see colossi vs Zerg because corruptors "hardcounter" them. Armies don't work like that in SC2. When was the last time you saw a pure ultra army against a pure archon/immortal army? Never? Right.
In WoL, if Z goes for ultras, you see some ultras and a ton of zerglings and maybe some banelings. P responds with a few immortals (usually has only 1 robo), a bunch of zealots, and archons with the left-over gas.
The zealots are critical for tanking damage because P can't afford a lot of archons and can't mass-produce immortals (and if P did get 4 robos to mass-produce immortals, they'd open up a bunch of new vulnerabilities). Now the ultras will mow through the zealot wall much more quickly which will make the Zerg composition much stronger.
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On December 09 2012 01:47 Communism wrote:
Can someone please explain to me how making the DT shrine cost 100/100 (reducing gas cost by 150) does not just speed up DT rushes and make them more powerful.
It doesn't speed them up because if you're going for a WoL DT rush, you've planned your build so that you have 250 gas right when your twilight council finishes. There speed-limiting factor was construction time for the buildings, not resource accumulation. The new HoTS patch doesn't change the construction time, so the DT rush will hit at approximately the same timing as in WoL. The difference is that the rush will be less of a commitment because you'll have 150 gas to spend elsewhere.
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On December 07 2012 04:25 WeaponX.7 wrote:
Its like blizzard doesnt understand what people like about terran mech. They like fucking tanks. Jesus christ people like the positional play of tanks with mech, nobody wants to go mass thor. Its probably the ugliest unit in the game. So what do they do? Make mass thor "viable" and combine air with mech upgrades. So every mech game will be mass thor into bc late game. Who the fuck wants to watch that. BC's and thors are both boring a-move units, but dont worry blizz thinks it will be "fun". Everytime I see an update for HotS I like it less.
Blizzard will never understand Mech... and the Warhound was evidence of that. But they just keep adding gimmicks to the game like the Widow Mine, Abduct and the Oracle who either can end the game with their damage or do nothing if countered and lose the game for their player. And they have to nerf said gimmicks because they are overpowered and change the way to game works, meaning that these gimmicky plays do less and less... and we end up back in the same place.
HOTS is moving in such a bad direction, at this point I think they need to hit the reset button and try again.
When pros get their hands on Abduct, they'll eat Protoss alive. And if you nerf the ability it becomes useless. It was a bad idea in the first place. There is too many all or nothing abilities in SC2 like Abduct in the game.
And what exactly is Protoss supposed to build late game vs Mech? Carriers still take 120 seconds to build and then you need 32 more seconds to get to max Interceptors...
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On December 08 2012 23:56 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote:
You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain. If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side. ---- Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore! You're pretty crazy. I mean it's not like they couldn't do that anyway with overlord drops/nydus if they wanted.
Isnt it obvious? To use drops you have to basically research two upgrades and for Nydus you have to make sure your worm doesnt get killed before it gets out. The Viper can do that AND MORE ... if you simply restrict yourself to a few big units. I am fine with Nydus and drops, but with Vipers it gets A LOT easier with those buffed Ultralisks.
On December 08 2012 23:12 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 16:44 RampancyTW wrote:
You've provided zero proof that it would be imbalanced. All you've proven so far as that it has the potential to look awesome. You have yet to demonstrate that it would be too powerful for its limited, situational application and heavy gas/supply/energy investment, beyond your simple assertion that it would be. Rofl ... really ... use your brain. If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side. ---- Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore! Just stop, for the love of god. It is so obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about it's really starting to get on my nerves and i'm pretty sure i'm not the only one. Talk balance on maps all you want but pulling future metagame developments and how they would mean an autowin out of your ass when there is no proof of it whatsoever(disregarding the many many reasons why what you're saying is bullshit in the first place) has no place in this thread.
If you cant come up with crazy ideas to use the new skills and judge if they are possibly too strong that is your problem, but dont blame me for doing so and coming to the conclusion that its a terrible idea. You can ignore my warning if you want, but its out there and we will see if it is viable or not when the expansion goes live. Personally I feel the Viper is completely broken in its flexibility ... maybe even more so than the Infestor in small numbers.
There are enough broken abilities in the game right now that can be only balanced by limiting the creativity of mapmakers as todays game on Bifrost showed. Sadly Blizzard refuses to fix the basics first and they add even more terrible abilities to the game which the somewhat random changes - instead of just tweaking - to HotS units shows.
On December 09 2012 01:37 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:48 Rabiator wrote:
Rofl ... really ... use your brain.
If Zerg can easily pull their big Ultralisks into anothers main base and demolish their production they will win easily. They can also save Ultralisks by "teleporting them back". Its simply not awesome but rather terrible. Stop thinking with your Zerg brain and think about it from the other side.
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Another good example why Blizzards recent "improvements" are bad is given on Arkanoid (Fanatasy vs Classic) right now. Fantasy dropped using two Medivacs and was on the retreat. DOA commented to this with something like "oh he might be losing his medivacs" because some Marines were in pursuit. Once the speed boost is in the game there wont be this excitement anymore since the Medivacs will get away ... no chance to be caught anymore! I usually agree with your posts Rabiator but in this case you're just wrong. As dumb as the reworked seeker missile is, it does provide a counter to the "strategy" of pulling your ultralisks back by using the new seeker missile to focus down the vipers if they get too close. Even if 3 seconds is "enough" to pull the ultralisk back, the sacrifice of a viper to do so "should" be enough incentive not to do it. Even if you don't have seeker missiles I think 4-5 vikings is probably going to be a staple in the matchup considering how strong vipers are anyway, in addition to the fact that all mech upgrades are tied together. And the Medivac speed isn't that bad if it is done comparatively to the speed of the units on the ground and air. Currently the medivac is a lot slower than many units on the ground that can focus them down as well as many units in the air. Considering that zerg now have imba 4 speed mutalisks, medivacs need all the speed boosts they can get. I don't like a "push one button instantly get away" option but 10-20% speed boost isn't that bad in my eyes.
A lot of times Medivacs in the heat of battle are "unmicroed" and left hanging back over the battlefield instead of being pulled back during the battle as well. Bad micro shouldnt be made less punishable by adding a speed boost. Such a speed boost will also allow Medivacs to maybe get past a single turret and still deliver their payload. That is basically saying "turtle more" and makes it too easy to deliver drops due to the reduced reaction time which the incoming Medivacs allow for the defender ... making drops even more efficient than they already are.
Blizzard has the tendency to balance the game through the "dont let them get there" strategy and that is bad. Drop harrassment is one of the very few ways in which Terrans can really fight back Zerg once they have developed a map presence. They should have the ability to do that with units head to head.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Does anyone else get the feeling that fungal is still broken?
You can dodge the initial one sure, but if you get caught once it's the same issue as before. There's no way to avoid having it chained on you and all your air units die if you accidentally clump once and get hit.
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EPT
