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On December 07 2012 06:06 LOLItsRyann wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:15 kcdc wrote:
Mods strangely closed the last thread on this--hope this one stays open.
The change I'm most excited about is nerfing the infestor into submission in favor of more interesting, exciting units like the mutalisk and ultralisk. Lategame ZvP is completely reinvented from WOL to HOTS, and that's a very good thing. Look at this combination of HOTS changes:
-Infestor massively nerfed. No longer counters fast air units, much worse against blink stalkers and forcefields. IT's deal low damage to anything with armor upgrades and are killed by a single storm before they hatch.
-Tempest added. Counters broodlords but is slow and weak for cost against everything else.
-Ultralisk gainst +15 damage against zealots.
Zerg can't win with infestors and broodlords anymore. They can't play passively, mass spines and spores, and win. Broodlords are now a tactical siege unit rather than the primary late-game damage-dealer. Instead, ultras are the primary late-game unit since they're no longer countered by a wall of zealots tanking while immortals and archons DPS the ultras down. But you need to be active with the ultras because Protoss can mass immortals and archons and eventually out-class your army.
Blizz is definitely on the right track with making Zerg a more active, fun race. I'm pumped. Why do you say this? Immortals still hardcounter Ultras, becuase they're armored. Ultras will not change in ZvP. Immortals and Archons still stomp them. In fact, I'm not really sure what this change will do... It's nice, but you don't make a lot of 'light' units against Ultras anyway. Only thing that comes to mind. MARINES. Yeah more than double damage to Marines is more than good.
I disagree. In fact I think this will open up the dreaded BL -> Ultra remax switch that is so common in ZvT. Think about it for a second:
How does Protoss stop BLs? Tempests. What is the worst possible unit you can make vs BLs? Immortals. Protoss will not be able to change their army composition fast enough to counter this tech switch since Ultras should rip through Zealots now. However with the change in the VR the possibility that the final end game unit composition for Protoss in PvZ might be skytoss now.
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On December 07 2012 07:16 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 07:10 Grendel wrote:On December 07 2012 06:42 Sworm_MS wrote:
-As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army.
he is definitely high.
Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby.
At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit. And have muta versus muta EVERY SINGLE zvz for all eternity? No, thanks. Umm build spores. Make Queens. Use Speed Hydras.
Be clever with your infestors, burrow move them into range then try to snap some of the mutas up, them mutas wont have detection with them but don't rely only on infestors (thank god, I've seen enough of them for a lifetime.) The more I think about it the more cool tactics this patch seems to open up.
@ above: Skytoss with templar, storm is always gonna be good late game for air zerg clumps/broodlings and they will crush ling support that always goes with ultras.
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On December 07 2012 07:08 RifleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 07:06 happyness wrote:
I like the intent to make mutas more viable again, but as long as the widow mine can attack air, I don't see them being used TvZ.
I really like the widow mine, but the fact that it can shut down harassment so effectively is bad imo. Does the widow mine auto attack things that fly into its attack radius? Can't you clear mines by using overlords to draw fire?
You could but you are greatly reducing mutas mobility by having to have an overlord/overseer with you everywhere you go, plus that would take a lot more APM that might be used else where. Mutas are already hard to make work in WoL, with the WM I doubt zergs will go for them. Plus I don't like the fact that WM's can shut down harassment in TvT and TvP as well
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its interesting that they expect HSM to be used primarily for Colossus and Capital ship sniping. I wonder how necessary that will be, given the new Thor attack and the buff to air/mech upgrades. I wouldn't be surprised if people handle Colossi with Vikings/Thors, and instead use HSM to oneshot Immortals.
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On December 07 2012 07:39 awesomoecalypse wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if people handle Colossi with Vikings/Thors, and instead use HSM to oneshot Immortals.
This would actually be awesome.
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On December 07 2012 07:43 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 07:39 awesomoecalypse wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if people handle Colossi with Vikings/Thors, and instead use HSM to oneshot Immortals. This would actually be awesome.
HSM goes through hardened shields? O.o
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On December 07 2012 04:57 a176 wrote:
The only thing I will comment on is that the combined mech-air upgrades for terran is just too much. You give this upgrade "in hopes of seeing larger number of banshees and BCs", what about protoss? I don't think there's anyone in the community, no matter what race they play, that wouldn't love to see increased skytoss usage with VRs, carriers, etc.
Vikings and banshees already do good damage for their purpose and now are essentially getting free upgrades to further their damage output beyond what was needed by the community.
Protoss has more air units that serve more roles than the rather gimmicky terran air units. As terran one ship only shoots air, one shoots ground and one is a big fat joke in competitive play.
My guess is that they want to make an air-heavy protoss a viable playstyle by having a lot of variety in the starport units, starting from the early game. Meanwhile, a sky terran style will never be a feasible option by itself so they would rather make that playstyle an extension to mech.
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Yeah Terran air has always been supplementary to other forces in SCII. If HSM goes through hardened shields that's fucking ridiculous.
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On December 07 2012 07:49 Qwyn wrote:
Yeah Terran air has always been supplementary to other forces in SCII. If HSM goes through hardened shields that's fucking ridiculous.
Of course it does, it is not an missile like every other attack, it is a spell, and every spell goes through hardened shield, Yamato Cannon also goes through and old Thor's 250mm strike cannon also went through, don't know why this should be any different.
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Is the HSM still 125 energy?
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On December 07 2012 07:45 Infernal_dream wrote:
HSM goes through hardened shields? O.o
Yes, it's a spell. All spells go through Hardened Shields.
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On December 07 2012 07:20 TheFrankOne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 07:16 GinDo wrote:On December 07 2012 07:10 Grendel wrote:On December 07 2012 06:42 Sworm_MS wrote:
-As such, we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army.
he is definitely high.
Give FG projectile and call it heavily nerfed... well, it's blizzard baby.
At least they should remove ability to hit air with this shit. And have muta versus muta EVERY SINGLE zvz for all eternity? No, thanks. Umm build spores. Make Queens. Use Speed Hydras. Be clever with your infestors, burrow move them into range then try to snap some of the mutas up, them mutas wont have detection with them but don't rely only on infestors (thank god, I've seen enough of them for a lifetime.) The more I think about it the more cool tactics this patch seems to open up. @ above: Skytoss with templar, storm is always gonna be good late game for air zerg clumps/broodlings and they will crush ling support that always goes with ultras.
A lot of that had to do with Vortex, which is now gone. Otherwise they could just mass corruptor and spread them enough so they don't get raped by storms. But the fear is now the VR will be too strong vs corruptors which now might make skytoss too strong. However I still see the BL -> Ultra tech switch being a strong late game timing when the majority of the Protoss army is still ground units.
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Are some people really unhappy with the infestor nerf? Less range on fungal and projectile on fungal and less health on eggs (admittedly this one is pretty marginal) AND infested terrans don't get upgrades anymore (this one is big) qualifies as heavy in my books.
Pretty excited about medivac changes. Drops are gonna be a bitch now. Giving the Thor a real anti-air attack is cool I guess, but at the same time I really don't like the Thor much. It's a boring a-move unit and I don't really want to see more of it.
Faster mutas are gonna be annoying. Oracles are gonna be annoying. Faster Reapers are gonna be annoying. Cheaper DT shrine...just harassment everywhere in this patch. You can tell they're trying to move away from the turtling into deathball strategy that has become so dominant lately.
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The one thing I already don't like is tempest requiring fleet beacon while being nerfed.
Also making the tempest a pure lategame anti-massive unit is super boring.
And the medivac chaneg seems insane.
The rest sounds interesting at the very least.
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I would love to see the muta stack again or in general stack for air units, so you can make them effective with micro. In broodwar zerg players were spending hours working on there muta micro, imo it should come back, so skill makes your units better and not something like a attack or health buff.
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The thing I really like about the Infestor nerfs is, apart from the upgrade nerf on IT's (which is good imo, but is sort of a generic nerf rather than one that promotes a micro response) is that they are nerfs that work by promoting countermicro.
Shorter range on the Infestor slightly expands the window for opponents to snipe the Infestor before it can get a shot off.
Projectile opens up the option to dodge with Phoenixes, Oracles, speed prisms, blink Stalkers, Stimmed Terran bio/reapers, the new speed boosted medivacs, and most Zerg units (especially since nearly all fights in ZvZ happen on creep).
Lower health on eggs promotes pickings them off with storms or tank fire.
Basically, the big difference between Infestors now and Infestors before is that now their core abilities all have a window where a prepared opponent can neutralize them with good reactions. IMO, thats a good direction to take with nerfs.
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I still think the widow mine shouldn't hit air. They can make mutas as fast as they like, it still doesn't make them attractive when they can be annihilated by a random, invisible, auto-firing unit before you even notice.
Seeker missile as single target is a little disappointing. For the massive charge-up time, I wouldn't mind if it still had splash.
I'm really, really scared of early medivac pressure with the speed boost, now. I think they should probably expedite the upgrade.
The dark shrine reduction is also kind of weird. They did this with the free seeker missile upgrade as well. If you want to buff something for the late game, reducing the cost is not the way to do it. All that does is make it easier to rush.
I'm also disappointed about losing mothership recall. Does anyone else think it's weird that the justification for nerfing recall is.... actually talking about vortex?
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I would like to see the radius of effect of blinding cloud increase. Marines and stalkers can easily micro out of the cloud so that leaves blinding cloud only effective against seige tanks.
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The reasoning behind the phoenix range change is incredibly poor.
"We wanted to combat another change that came in the same patch and hasn't been tested yet outside our offices, if at all"
Congrats on making mutas even less viable in your attempt to make them halfway useful!
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On December 07 2012 09:42 yeastiality wrote:
The reasoning behind the phoenix range change is incredibly poor.
"We wanted to combat another change that came in the same patch and hasn't been tested yet outside our offices, if at all"
Congrats on making mutas even less viable in your attempt to make them halfway useful!
Soo are you saying they should only buff/nerf one thing at a time? Because that would be stupid, buffing/nerfing 1 race without adjusting the others to make sure the matchups stay even. Why not change many things at once and evaluate it? It saves time.
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EPT
