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[M] Clear Heart (2)

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
Yonnua
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2331 Posts
September 09 2012 22:55 GMT
#1
Clear Heart (1.0)
By Yonnua

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Overview:
+ Show Spoiler +
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Description:
+ Show Spoiler +

Gameplay:

Clear Heart is a 2 player melee map with 10 bases. The first 3 are close together and the fourth and fifth are further out, but defended by tight ramps which are easier to defend with static defence and smaller quantities of units. The watchtowers provide vision of the wide central path and help to defend the fifth base. An outer path is tighter and chokier but is a longer attack path.

Lore:

"Legends tell of a demon that steals away all but those with a pure soul. These legends were made all too real with the disappearance of a dominion harvesting team. Now their resources are up for grabs, but any who seek them will need to ensure they have clear hearts..."



Game play Data:
+ Show Spoiler +

Playable Bounds: 128x170
Absolute Bounds: 160x200
XWTs: 2
Destructibles: 4 (2 between nat/third, 2 at 3rd backdoor)
Bases: 10 (Mains at 1/7)
Doodads: 644


Editor Data:
+ Show Spoiler +

Texture Set:
<Tyrador Bricks>
<Tyrador Big Bricks>
<Tyrador Marble Tiles>
<Typhon Grass>
<Zhakul'Das Grass>
<Port Zion Grass>
<Xil Dirt>
<Xil Dirt Rocky>

Cliffs:
<Tyrador Organic Cliffs>
<Tyrador Manmade Cliffs>


Aesthetics and Beauty:
+ Show Spoiler +

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Replays, Battle Reports and Analysis:
+ Show Spoiler +

Clear heart was playtested and developed over the course of a couple of months by High diamond and Masters level players, both in its previous form as "Ballistae" and in its finalised form as "Clear Heart". Clear Heart has a much lower number of replays than the original version and so these final testing replays are included here. For those who can't view the replays, battle reports and analysis are included.

Game #1: Yonnua vs Thuney PvZ
Thuney is a 1022 point Masters Zerg. Yonnua is a 1019 point Diamond Protoss.

Replay: Yonnua vs Thuney

Post-game comments: "Good ... I like [it] ... I need to see more of it"

Battle Report: Currently unavailable.

Game #2: Yonnua vs Lightwtight PvT
Lightweight is a 1129 point Masters Terran. Yonnua is a 1019 point Diamond Protoss.

Replay: Yonnua vs Lightweight

Post-game comments: “Not bad … you do it well.” **Note: Lightweight spoke poor English and did not give many comments.

Battle Report: LW opens with a 1rax expand in to bio pressure. Y opens nexus first but loses the nexus to marines and scvs. Y counters with an immortal through LW’s third, but LW holds and chases down the army. Y gets out a colossus to defend the counter. LW attempts a doom drop but Y holds with minimal damage. LW takes 3 more command centres. Y attempts to pressure with 3 colossi but LW holds. Y takes a third and attacks the fifth, but LW has too much. LW counters and wins.

Game #3: Yonnua vs hAsBioBuG PvZ
hAsBioBuG is a high Diamond Zerg. Yonnua is a 1019 point Diamond Protoss.

Replay: Yonnua vs hAsBioBuG

Post-game comments: “nice job … hard 3rd to take but thats not a problem … i think its a pretty standard map … it has great potential … i would do something more w[ith] the middle i guess”

Battle Report: Y opens 2 gate zealots in to FFE, HB opens pool first in to 3 hatch. HB takes map control with zerglings while Y takes 6 gateways. Y pressures with the 6 gates and HB uses roaches to defend while taking a fourth base, although he loses his third to zealots. Y techs with a double robo. HB techs to infestors while sniping pylons on the map and retaking his third. Y takes his third and moves out with an immortal stalker sentry army. HB masses roach/ling/infestor at his fourth. Y moves up the ramp but the spines and army of HB are out of position and he gets forcefielded in half. Y moves away as infested terrans land and harasses the third with a warp prism and zealots. HB misses a fungal at the fourth and loses half his infestors. Zerglings push back the army at the fourth as Stalkers clean up the roaches at the third. HB sends some roaches home to clean up the army at the third and holds both bases, but loses 13 workers. HB techs to broodlords as Y harasses with the warp prism and gets out some colossi. Y pushes in to the fourth while HB is out of position and the base goes down. HB moves his army to his natural where he builds up corruptors and infestors. Y moves in to the natural and loses his colossi to corruptors, but the infestors are on move command and die to the immortals and stalkers. Y kills the roaches at the natural and takes a fourth. HB ggs. Y wins.

Additional Analysis: This game gives the illusion that the third and fourth bases are difficult to hold but actually just shows an example of a zerg player not adapting to the map. Hasbiobug chooses odd places to engage and fails to multitask well, resulting in the loss. Zerg has 2 main areas to engage on this map. One is the open low ground areas and the other is the top of the ramps at the expansions. HB kept his army back and engaged the army when it arrived at the expansion, rather than placing spines at the top of the ramp (e.g. Cloud Kingdom’s third) and engaging with fungals there. When the final colossus push moves from the fourth to the natural, he fails to engage in the large open terrain of the low ground where surrounds would be easy, and instead engages at the top of his ramp, but with no spines to help reinforce. The poor choices of engagements, along with bad infestor control, were the reasons that HB failed to hold his fourth.

More games to come!

Additional comments and replays from previous versions
+ Show Spoiler +

Yonnua v Holmguard
“It was pretty fun, many attack points but still kind of easy to hold 3rd base once the rocks are broken … 4 out of 5.”

Yonnua v Blazezz
“It was a nice map … I liked the layout … I would rather have one [tower] in the middle or just two closer to the spawn points.”

Yonnua v EmphY
“I personally dont like the tileset, but the design looks good … the size, distances, watch tower placement was good … not sure about the 3rd though and the rocks connecting them to the natural, but hard to tell from 1 game … I was impressed … 8/10 … better than any of the new [blizzard] maps”

Yonnua v CptSalam Game 1
Yonnua v CptSalam Game 2
“Not bad … map size is good I think … TvZ will be so heavy macro gaming … 4star”


LRSL 2014 Finalist! PartinG | Mvp | Bomber | Creator | NaNiwa | herO
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
September 09 2012 23:17 GMT
#2
in a couple of months you couldnt come up with a solution for the middle? its just a ridiculously large, flat area.
starleague forever
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
September 10 2012 00:43 GMT
#3
The texturing is sort of cool. I think what a176 said about the middle is true, it needs something to spice it up.
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
Praetorial
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States4241 Posts
September 10 2012 00:55 GMT
#4
Personally I think the middle is okay, it's interesting and not cluttered.

For variety's sake, I feel like it's fine.
FOR GREAT JUSTICE! Bans for the ban gods!
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
September 10 2012 00:59 GMT
#5
I personally find it somewhat dull and uninspiring, no offense
What we have in this map is a linear 3-base pattern, followed with a choice of 4th bases that push you towards the center; there's no way to expand but towards your opponent.
And macro games on this map aren't feasible because this is a 10-base map with a 5th base that forces you to control the entire width of the map to actually hold.

I would move the base 4th that is next to the third back to make it a bit easier to defend, add another base to the middle that requires good positioning to hold, and add some dynamic to the center. (Giant open area -_-)
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
Yonnua
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2331 Posts
September 10 2012 20:22 GMT
#6
On September 10 2012 09:59 The_Templar wrote:
I personally find it somewhat dull and uninspiring, no offense
What we have in this map is a linear 3-base pattern, followed with a choice of 4th bases that push you towards the center; there's no way to expand but towards your opponent.
And macro games on this map aren't feasible because this is a 10-base map with a 5th base that forces you to control the entire width of the map to actually hold.

I would move the base 4th that is next to the third back to make it a bit easier to defend, add another base to the middle that requires good positioning to hold, and add some dynamic to the center. (Giant open area -_-)


Well, I could start by explaining to you how the use of chokes crushes armies going in to bases, I could give you a lecture on brood war and how it showed that far apart bases aren't just viable but actually preferable, but lots of that would require you to have read the OP. Given that you clearly haven't I'd suggest that you look at the replays section at the bottom including replays of PvTs with 5 base economies and so on.

On September 10 2012 08:17 a176 wrote:
in a couple of months you couldnt come up with a solution for the middle? its just a ridiculously large, flat area.


Bad manners in the mapping community? Well I never. As for the middle, it's large and open to act as an area where zerg can gain map dominance. If you had read the OP you would be aware of this. Given that the outlying bases are mainly defended by chokes at the top of ramps, zerg players really need a way to shut down attacking forces. The centre does this by preventing any pushes through it and requiring them to navigate around the outside. Alternatively, pushes going for very specific timings have to risk going through the centre where zerg armies can shut them down or up a thin choke where terran or protoss armies can hammer them. Zerg defence on this map relies heavily on spine crawlers at the chokes to lock out any aggression but also on the large open centre to provide map control. This provides a dynamic which is different to other maps. The fact that you can be calling it dull while at the same time criticising it for being different stuns me.

tl;dr please all read the OP before you lecture me on how the map is terrible because the centre is open, etc. Trust me it's been considered and the fact that I've spent 2 months play testing this map with masters level players should be a testament to that.
LRSL 2014 Finalist! PartinG | Mvp | Bomber | Creator | NaNiwa | herO
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
September 10 2012 20:35 GMT
#7
Well, I could start by explaining to you how the use of chokes crushes armies going in to bases, I could give you a lecture on brood war and how it showed that far apart bases aren't just viable but actually preferable, but lots of that would require you to have read the OP. Given that you clearly haven't I'd suggest that you look at the replays section at the bottom including replays of PvTs with 5 base economies and so on.

I could explain to you that diamond/masters players aren't pro players, and that they are not very good at exploiting a map that they have only played on a few times. I could also give you a lecture on brood war and how its dynamics and easiness of defending bases are different than in SC2, but lots of that would require a discussion requiring you to not be condescending. Given that you clearly won't I think we should agree to disagree, including replays of PvTs with 5 base economies and so on.

---
You are wrong because the easiness of navigating the center and the proximity of the center bases allows for a really effective 2-pronged attack on either 4th base from the center and your fourth, no matter which one you choose. Just because diamond and masters players didn't do said attack does not mean it isn't viable.

Bad manners in the mapping community? Well I never.

What the heck? -_-.
The mapmaking community here isn't bad mannered; they'll tell you what's wrong in a non-sugarcoated way.

As for the middle, it's large and open to act as an area where zerg can gain map dominance. If you had read the OP you would be aware of this.

He's a mapmaker that is at least as good and probably better than you, why would you assume he didn't read the OP? I did twice before posting, and I agree with him. The center is far too open, because every engagement will favor zerg, and it's bland.

zerg players really need a way to shut down attacking forces.

You can fix this simply by creating lower ground bases that are slightly further away from the opponent, making a defender more able to defend.

Alternatively, pushes going for very specific timings have to risk going through the centre where zerg armies can shut them down or up a thin choke where terran or protoss armies can hammer them. Zerg defence on this map relies heavily on spine crawlers at the chokes to lock out any aggression but also on the large open centre to provide map control. This provides a dynamic which is different to other maps. The fact that you can be calling it dull while at the same time criticising it for being different stuns me.

Every good map in the universe will have locations that favor certain engagements over others; why do you think your map is any different than that? I don't know any good map that is of one choke width primarily.

tl;dr please all read the OP before you lecture me on how the map is terrible because the centre is open, etc. Trust me it's been considered and the fact that I've spent 2 months play testing this map with masters level players should be a testament to that.

Your map is playable, and that has been recognized through playtesting. We are just trying to help you make the map better than a completely normal map.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
Yonnua
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2331 Posts
September 10 2012 20:53 GMT
#8
On September 11 2012 05:35 The_Templar wrote:
You are wrong because the easiness of navigating the center and the proximity of the center bases allows for a really effective 2-pronged attack on either 4th base from the center and your fourth, no matter which one you choose. Just because diamond and masters players didn't do said attack does not mean it isn't viable.


Cool. I personally think splitting up armies to attack multiple locations (and hence requiring the defender to do the same, and rely more on static defence) is a good thing. I think that's the kind of thing we should strive for in maps because it's better for esports if pros are microing 2 battles at once while macroing. it increases the skill cap and is more entertaining for spectators. Controlling the high grounds will allow the defending player a slight advantage (particularly at the fifth where there's a tower) and allows them to use concaves to their advantage to defend as the attacking forces are made to run through a choke and clump, preventing the units at the back from attacking.

On September 11 2012 05:35 The_Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
As for the middle, it's large and open to act as an area where zerg can gain map dominance. If you had read the OP you would be aware of this.

He's a mapmaker that is at least as good and probably better than you, why would you assume he didn't read the OP? I did twice before posting, and I agree with him. The center is far too open, because every engagement will favor zerg, and it's bland.


Because the OP specifically responds to what he said and he didn't respond to the OP and chose to ignore it. If you read my last comment you'll see that non-zerg players will likely not use the centre to attack or defend and will instead use the more choked side paths. Engaging in the centre would indeed be foolish for them which is why there is an alternate, but longer path.

On September 11 2012 05:35 The_Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
zerg players really need a way to shut down attacking forces.

You can fix this simply by creating lower ground bases that are slightly further away from the opponent, making a defender more able to defend.


I'll look in to places to put bases on the map in terms of a sixth base although I'm comfortable with the current bases and the ability to defend them.

On September 11 2012 05:35 The_Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
Alternatively, pushes going for very specific timings have to risk going through the centre where zerg armies can shut them down or up a thin choke where terran or protoss armies can hammer them. Zerg defence on this map relies heavily on spine crawlers at the chokes to lock out any aggression but also on the large open centre to provide map control. This provides a dynamic which is different to other maps. The fact that you can be calling it dull while at the same time criticising it for being different stuns me.

Every good map in the universe will have locations that favor certain engagements over others; why do you think your map is any different than that? I don't know any good map that is of one choke width primarily.


Exactly? This is what I'm saying. The chokes are not all the same size.
LRSL 2014 Finalist! PartinG | Mvp | Bomber | Creator | NaNiwa | herO
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
September 10 2012 21:20 GMT
#9
Cool. I personally think splitting up armies to attack multiple locations (and hence requiring the defender to do the same, and rely more on static defence) is a good thing. I think that's the kind of thing we should strive for in maps because it's better for esports if pros are microing 2 battles at once while macroing. it increases the skill cap and is more entertaining for spectators. Controlling the high grounds will allow the defending player a slight advantage (particularly at the fifth where there's a tower) and allows them to use concaves to their advantage to defend as the attacking forces are made to run through a choke and clump, preventing the units at the back from attacking.

My point is that the attack is far too easy to execute against a slow army because of how accessible the center is.


Because the OP specifically responds to what he said and he didn't respond to the OP and chose to ignore it. If you read my last comment you'll see that non-zerg players will likely not use the centre to attack or defend and will instead use the more choked side paths. Engaging in the centre would indeed be foolish for them which is why there is an alternate, but longer path.

Nowhere in the OP is anything addressing exactly how open the center is, except:
Zerg has 2 main areas to engage on this map. One is the open low ground areas and the other is the top of the ramps at the expansions ... When the final colossus push moves from the fourth to the natural, he fails to engage in the large open terrain of the low ground where surrounds would be easy,

Zerg is never, ever, ever going to engage anywhere but the center past the early-mid game.


I'll look in to places to put bases on the map in terms of a sixth base although I'm comfortable with the current bases and the ability to defend them.

If you think that the base positions are ok, I'm fine with that; just keep an open mind to future suggestions.


Exactly? This is what I'm saying. The chokes are not all the same size.

There is so much variation that it's ridiculous to engage in any place except one place (location depending on matchup) for either race.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
September 10 2012 21:52 GMT
#10
The center is fine, obviously we can handle it. (Refer to Entombed Valley.) It could also be changed to provide something to spice it up, but whatever.

Honestly I am a little put off by the boring 3 base opening this map provides, but the idea with the 5 base game is actually pretty cool. However since there is no option at all for another source of gas in the lategame, I think this will end up being a little bit anti zerg. They will be forced to Maginot Line one wing of the map with spines and spores and try to keep the other one up with counterpressure or successive army neutralization. This is kind of viable against protoss and far less so against terran, especially if they have strongly fortified 5 base up and running.

I would love to see a small expansion on the wing somewhere, maybe downstairs from the 3rd. If not it's still an okay map just nothing a zerg would pick intentionally for zvt.

Have you had other designs for the tower placement and ramp access to the center bases? I am think about: what if you pushed out the tower on a little nubby peninsula of high ground? This way it's a little more vulnerable, not automatic. Possibly with a small ramp nearby, but without direct access to/from the middle (facing to one side or the other).
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
Yonnua
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2331 Posts
September 10 2012 21:54 GMT
#11
On September 11 2012 06:20 The_Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
Cool. I personally think splitting up armies to attack multiple locations (and hence requiring the defender to do the same, and rely more on static defence) is a good thing. I think that's the kind of thing we should strive for in maps because it's better for esports if pros are microing 2 battles at once while macroing. it increases the skill cap and is more entertaining for spectators. Controlling the high grounds will allow the defending player a slight advantage (particularly at the fifth where there's a tower) and allows them to use concaves to their advantage to defend as the attacking forces are made to run through a choke and clump, preventing the units at the back from attacking.

My point is that the attack is far too easy to execute against a slow army because of how accessible the center is.


Not really. it's easy to get in to the position but the skill comes in the execution. It isn't hard on daybreak to put your roaches at the 6m1hyg expansion. What is difficult is splitting off the right numbers and hitting the third and natural at just the right times to prevent one base being defended. The centre being easy to access doesn't change that.

On September 11 2012 06:20 The_Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
Because the OP specifically responds to what he said and he didn't respond to the OP and chose to ignore it. If you read my last comment you'll see that non-zerg players will likely not use the centre to attack or defend and will instead use the more choked side paths. Engaging in the centre would indeed be foolish for them which is why there is an alternate, but longer path.

Nowhere in the OP is anything addressing exactly how open the center is, except:
Show nested quote +
Zerg has 2 main areas to engage on this map. One is the open low ground areas and the other is the top of the ramps at the expansions ... When the final colossus push moves from the fourth to the natural, he fails to engage in the large open terrain of the low ground where surrounds would be easy,

Zerg is never, ever, ever going to engage anywhere but the center past the early-mid game.


When they're choosing the engagements. But when a protoss player moves an immortal stalker sentry army around the side in to the fifth or the natural, the zerg player defends by using the choke and spines to defend. The zerg would obviously never willingly sit in the choke. That's why the centre is so open, so that zerg has the place in the middle where they can position their army and move quickly to defend their additional bases. As zerg relies much more on having a lot of units than the other races the others are fine splitting the army whereas zerg can use its natural strength, its mobility.

(The obvious exception is with brood lords where the situation is reversed, zerg won't want to be in the wide open centre where his broods can be sniped from wide angles and so he'll use the side paths.)

On September 11 2012 06:20 The_Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
I'll look in to places to put bases on the map in terms of a sixth base although I'm comfortable with the current bases and the ability to defend them.

If you think that the base positions are ok, I'm fine with that; just keep an open mind to future suggestions.


Well where do you think a sixth base should go?

On September 11 2012 06:20 The_Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
Exactly? This is what I'm saying. The chokes are not all the same size.

There is so much variation that it's ridiculous to engage in any place except one place (location depending on matchup) for either race.


But doing that makes no sense because if you refuse to adapt and engage in other positions then you just sacrifice bases for no reason. The third on Cloud Kingdom has a larger ramp than the ramp going in to the fourth here, but it can still be effectively controlled by zerg. Players won't just choose not to engage places where they aren't at their strongest, they'll just adapt to the map and make the most of the terrain.
LRSL 2014 Finalist! PartinG | Mvp | Bomber | Creator | NaNiwa | herO
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