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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On August 22 2012 06:38 VisceraEyes wrote: A game of mystery and WONDER more like. A game where dreams are made - and shattered. A game unlike any other game you've played or are likely to play again. When you put it that way, I can't resist  /in | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
You missed us  | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
 .This game can't start soon enough .I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how much better gameplay is in a non-newbie environment . | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
lol I'm not saying I expect that everyone playing this is going to be a mafia superstar. But getting a chance to play with some of the best players in TL mafia should be a great learning opportunity . | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
A couple general observations for what I've just read: -I don't follow some of the voting that's already taken place in this thread. I don't get why some of us feel the need to vote for each other this early with little to no information to back a vote up. Imho, we should be working to establish a strong, pro-town atmosphere just as much as we are to find a lynch candidate for today. -I remember Hapa saying this once before: lynching one of the most vocal members day one is typically not the best idea. Looking back at how NMM XXIV turned out (Shady's lynch), others here should agree with me that there's at least some evidence to support this. Town loses so much more from a mislynch of a vocal town than of a semi-lurker, and, at least in my experience, you're much more likely to lynch a town than a scum when you target the most vocal day one player. I'm not going to assume that sloosh is town at this point, but the effort he's taken to pressure others with his posts is definitely conducive towards a pro-town atmosphere. Along those lines, I feel that Z-Boson's early vote on sloosh could very well be scum motivated. I disagree that sloosh's discussion is unhelpful. Maybe scum or town could pressure people like sloosh has, but he's pushing for more information so he's not stuck making a weak case against others, as Z-Boson has with sloosh: ##FoS: Z-Boson | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On September 04 2012 11:30 BlackMamba24 wrote: Can you explain why it's scum motivated? Why does scum want sloosh out of the game when all he's doing is arguing with Toadesstern and asking dumb questions First, I'd like to specify that asking questions that get others to discuss their reads on other players, or to defend themselves for something suspicious said in their posts, is not "dumb." I in fact find it suspicious from a townie perspective to call many of the lines of questioning recently presented in this thread as "dumb," since so far most of it has produced productive discussion. From a scum perspective, though, a statement like this does make sense. Scum has the knowledge of who is and isn't scum, so to them watching people they know to be town attacking each other could look pretty "dumb." Second, at the time I posted that sloosh was one of the most outspoken people in the game. From a scum perspective, it would make sense to remove an outspoken person day one. Especially if said person was furthering discussion by poking and prodding others with a lot of questions. While we're at it, I'd like to ask about this: On September 04 2012 11:34 BlackMamba24 wrote: Anyway - ##vote BloodyC0bbler. Nosy Neigbor specifies that you will not know who you visited, not "you will not know that you are the nosy neighbor" which implies that they would at least know they are the nosy neighbor. Nosy Neighbor makes a lot of sense as a scum fakeclaim it's probably what I would claim if I had to and thinking about SNB from Death Note mafia I have no reason to implicitly trust mattchew but the fact that you're throwing suspicion on him this early and this stupidly is completely consistent with your scum meta so bye What's with the vote for BloodyCobbler? He's pretty much a lurker at this point, but you're voting him for non-policy reasons... This feels like a scum getting behind a safe lurker lynch vote, at least at the time you wrote it (it just came to my attention as I'm about to post this that another page of postings have taken place, and cobbler has just made another post...)... My guess is this is a pressure vote, but I would appreciate a bit more of an explanation if you could provide it. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
Never mind about posting more on your thoughts on why you voted bloodycobbler. Your motivations are pretty clear with your latest post+ Show Spoiler + (at 11:58, in case you snipe me again... -_-) | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On September 04 2012 12:06 Z-BosoN wrote: Wait what? He's a one-liner semi-lurker who answers in riddles and you are ok with that and is defensive on him? Tell us why you think that not answering the godamn question straight-up of why he is so sure of the whole miller deal is pro-town? First, Cobbler is no longer a one-line semi-lurker. Second, new posts are popping up at a rather frantic pace, and I'm inclined to give people a bit of a chance to put forth their reads before pointing fingers over their first post. That was a big concern of mine when seeing the vote against Cobbler: he was voted for without being given any chance to further explain himself. That being said, his first post was not as transparent as I would have liked, and a lack of transparency certainly isn't "pro-town." However, I would like to ask that people give each other a bit more of a chance to explain themselves before voting. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
.##Vote: Mattchew But we still should be trying to create a pro-town environment going into day two. Along those lines: The guiltiest lurkers are listed as follows, in no particular order: Gravan, austinmc, imallinson, Strongandbig, Miltonkram I look forward to hearing more from these people in particular. That being said, you can expect from me tomorrow afternoon (~12 hours from now) a case writeup highlighting my current scum reads. Good night all, and congrats on an easy day one . | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
But there is more than one scum. We need to move past Mattchew onto pressuring other people. A scum lynch day one puts us in an excellent position going forward. Looking at others' filters I couldn't help but notice that there still are a considerable number of people that need to participate more to help ensure a strong pro-town environment going into day 2. Grush is at modkill-threshold. I don't expect he's going to be around all that much longer. Until he makes his first post, I consider any time spent pressuring him as a waste. On the other hand, Gravan, Lvdr, austinmc, maverick, ShadySands, and ShioPi all stand out to me as semi-lurkers. Some of them seem to have legitimate reasons (such as ShadySands), but that doesn't mean they aren't scum with legitimate reasons. As for things that have stood out to me: -Obviously, Ottoxlol made a rather out of place vote after it was apparent Mattchew was lying. I don't feel this is a scum tell, as from a scum perspective Mattchew is pretty much "confirmed scum" at this point. Scum would be dumb to not bus him. It doesn't guarantee he's innocent, but it feels like his vote is too out of place to have been made by scum. -BlackMamba's early vote against Cobbler still stands out to me. Cobbler started the initiative to get Mattchew lynched, convincing me that he's "confirmed town." I just don't see any scenario where Cobbler as scum aggressively buses his partner day one. Yet BlackMamba voted him with little reason, then turned around and tacked on more of an explanation a little later. BlackMamba's play here makes sense from a scum perspective, as he could have been trying to avert attention away from Mattchew. Also, he isn't transparent with his reads. As town, I see no reason why he'd withhold them, as he does here: On September 04 2012 12:05 BlackMamba24 wrote: because BC is full of shit and also making up stuff mattchew never said i'll never policy vote, i hate even reading the words next to each other i respectfully disagree about sloosh and how productive he has been but i'm not going to argue about it. i won't say anything about my read on him or toadesstern right now. hope that satisfies you I don't understand why it is that he can't share reads on sloosh and toadstern if he has them. Refusing to be transparent does not help town. ##FoS: BlackMamba I look forward to hearing BlackMamba's reply, especially regarding his reads on sloosh and toadstern that he refused to share. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
-First, I didn't understand the vote on Clobber. Maybe I'm "dense," as I really still don't. My understanding was Clobber's original case against Mattchew was based on his personal experience of how game mechanics worked in prior games. Then Mamba turns around and says that making a read like that based on experience is inherantly scummy and deserves a vote... This felt hasty to me, and scummy. Tbh, it still does. As scum, I don't understand what Clobber's motivation would be to accuse Mattchew as he did, as he'd be afraid of the implications if he was wrong (what he stated could be easily checked by others). It would be a risky move with no real reward. I still don't see how the vote for Clobber by Mamba was really justified... Second, yes. I am guilty of switching grush and Gravan's names when making my post. These are both players I have never played with, and, honestly, in the back of my mind they were both lurkers with too little content to get a good read from. Hopefully you can understand how I switched names, as they are quite similar. I have seen several semi-lurkers this game, and with a secured scum lynch (Yes, I am 100% sure Mattchew is scum.), I felt now was a good time to pressure people who hadn't been proactive already to become involved in hunting scum. @BlackMamba: On September 05 2012 09:51 BlackMamba24 wrote: GoodKarma - are you going to vote for mattchew right now? GoodKarma is scum for this reason - he says that mattchew is confirmed scum but then doesn't vote for him and tries to push suspicion onto me instead, appeals to BC (buddying up to a vet, classic newbie scum) basically the same as treehugger or whoever in tl mafia xxx who says "yeah youngminii is scum for sure but im not gonna vote for him and instead make a case on this random dude" I already voted for Mattchew. Maybe you should read my filter... Feel free to OMGUS me if you wish, but I really still don't follow how Clobber's early actions were clearly scum-motivated and deserved a vote. And while it seems that "veterans" seem to have extra clout here, I will not withdraw my FoS as all I see from Mamba is an OMGUS. I still don't understand refusing to share reads. If you're not going to share them could you at least explain to me how, from a town perspective, mentioning people you have reads on and then refusing to share them is ever a good idea? I don't understand this. And regarding Hapa: Hapa is someone who I played with in NMM XXIII. My "meta read": he has always been the type of player who tunnels one player until he is satisfied they are either scum or town. As such, I don't have a strong read on him right now since he is playing similarly this game. He has made what I perceive as a few "scumslips," but I try to focus on scum motivation rather than on slips as "scumslips" are a good way to get town mislynched (as both scum and town make them) whereas if you can pin scum motivation on someone you're much more likely to lynch the right guy. I don't see scum motivation behind his play right now. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On September 05 2012 06:40 Hapahauli wrote: Certainly it's not a 100% scumread, but it's pretty damn close. There's literally no townie motivation to lie to cast suspicion on someone. If it was simply a bad case (poor logic, whatever), it could come from a townie no problem. However, falsifying information is a different matter, and every player I've seen do so in one of my games has flipped mafia. His relative lurkiness doesn't help his case either. He had one or two fluffposts, then immediately came in on the mattchew bandwagon whilst simultaneously accusing me of being suspicious. Looks pretty damn scummy to me. Also interesting that he ignored that post until you brought it up SnB... hmmm? | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
You have addressed my questions satisfactorily. Now, while I don't really agree with your original scum read on Cobbler, I at least understand where you're coming from. And the same can be said about your refusal to share reads. Looking at what I said about Hapa, I can understand how it was unhelpful. However, Cobbler had specifically mentioned Hapa, and having some understanding of his meta from having previously played with him, I felt I could provide some insight into why I felt his actions aren't currently suspicious. But a null read isn't a scum or town read, and I can see how it isn't helping to scumhunt. But I would like to point out that not knowing I had already voted for Mattchew, when it is posted in two places, was more than a little careless on your part, and something I expect not to happen again. @Hapa: First, I never said I had a town read on you. Nowhere do I say this, so I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. Second: On September 05 2012 09:58 Hapahauli wrote: Funny enough, GoodKarma also harped on "not lynching active townies" earlier in the thread, and is now attacking BM24? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=16#319 Yeah he's mafia. Here's the actual quote: On September 04 2012 11:03 goodkarma wrote: Hey all A couple general observations for what I've just read: -I don't follow some of the voting that's already taken place in this thread. I don't get why some of us feel the need to vote for each other this early with little to no information to back a vote up. Imho, we should be working to establish a strong, pro-town atmosphere just as much as we are to find a lynch candidate for today. -I remember Hapa saying this once before: lynching one of the most vocal members day one is typically not the best idea. Looking back at how NMM XXIV turned out (Shady's lynch), others here should agree with me that there's at least some evidence to support this. Town loses so much more from a mislynch of a vocal town than of a semi-lurker, and, at least in my experience, you're much more likely to lynch a town than a scum when you target the most vocal day one player. I'm not going to assume that sloosh is town at this point, but the effort he's taken to pressure others with his posts is definitely conducive towards a pro-town atmosphere. Along those lines, I feel that Z-Boson's early vote on sloosh could very well be scum motivated. I disagree that sloosh's discussion is unhelpful. Maybe scum or town could pressure people like sloosh has, but he's pushing for more information so he's not stuck making a weak case against others, as Z-Boson has with sloosh: ##FoS: Z-Boson I stated very clearly that I was discussing day one lynch. Mattchew is set to be lynched today, not Mamba. Please read my posts more carefully before discussing them. As far as Lvdr goes, I mistook his posting on game mechanics as a content post in-game. This was very poor play on my part, and I should have read his filter more attentively. My thoughts on Ottox: He's been receiving a lot of pressure lately. I originally found his play to be too foolhardy to be likely scum-motivated. The consideration of Mattchew being an assassin in my opinion is ridiculous, as assassins only have to worry about getting lynched. If your only goal is to not get lynched, then why would you ever risk looking scummy with a fake roleclaim? But all of this has been said before... Right now, my read on him is he is still that he is bad town. My frustration right now with other proposed lynch candidates (for day 2) is they are null reads to me. I simply don't see clear scum motivation, or town motivation, behind their play. And Mattchew, even after he flips scum, will not provide a lot of leads as the only person who ever went to his defense was Ottox. This would be different if Mattchew flips town, but I find the likelihood of this abysmally low... I will be looking into filters more tomorrow, and will reassess who is most likely to flip scum. In the absence of clear scum motivation I will rely more on (what I consider to be less reliable) "scum tells." | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
I'd like to discuss a couple of things you've mentioned about Ottox: On September 05 2012 12:43 Z-BosoN wrote: Allright, Mattchew is set to be lynched. What can we conclude if he flips scum or town? In the unlikely event that he will flip town, will we have enough evidence to go for a BC lynch? My take is, if he flips town, BC's suspicions will go way up, but I don't agree with insta-lynch. We all agreed that fakeclaiming is not something a blue role would do, and is most likely coming from scum. If he flips scum, then we will take a long hard look at the people who insist that he shouldn't be lynched. Ox, as of now, is my top candidate for a lynch. He's been so obnoxious and so annoying regarding the whole Mattchew business that he looks the most suspicious up to now. He also has been of zero usefulness this entire game. @Shiaopi Your meta is a little off from Dwarf Mafia, where you were town and had much more contribuitive posts in day 1. When will your internet be fixed? Town can be obnoxious and annoying, too. The same can be said about overall usefulness. You can't expect everyone to be useful as town... I can understand if you find his history of defending Mattchew to be scummy, and that seems to be your main point here. However, it also seems to be the only point that holds water. We shouldn't be lynching people who are obnoxious or useless if they're town... Also: On September 06 2012 01:32 Z-BosoN wrote: I disagree, this is mostly WIFOM. If matt flips mafia, he will look suspicious because of scum motivation. If he flips townie, then he can equally be a townie who actually thought that matt's claim made sense, a townie who thought that matt was trolling and thought you were a better target, a townie who just wants to feel special by disagreeing with everybody else, a scum trying to gain town cred, and whatever else I can't come up with. I don't agree with your "he needs to die 100%". On my point of view, if matt flips scum, he becomes more suspicious, because there is scum motivation in trying to defend a buddy. If matt flips town, Ox will still be as suspicious as he is right now. I would like to focus on the point of Mattchew flipping scum, which is much much more likely (especially considering his recent postings): I agree that there is scum motivation behind Ottox's actions. But I would be interested in hearing from you if there is also a town motivation for such actions. We lynch people because they're scum, and not because they're bad town. This is still my read on him, but I would like to hear from you if there's anything specifically that has convinced you it's more likely he is going to flip scum than town. I still feel that defending Mattchew as Ottox has would be suicidal from a scum viewpoint, and that as scum Ottox would never feel so inclined to make such a defense. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
Who is your top scumread right now, and why? | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
First: On September 06 2012 04:53 Ottoxlol wrote: You are wrong. A joke is fine when the game is just started and there is nothing. You say scum dont want to give away much. Thats my main concern too, no one has to add anything to why they vote Matt, thats why i am trying to get ppl to talk about it. The problem with joking is that when you say something and then go back and say "just kidding," people don't know if you're a scum trying to cover up a blunder, or a townie who really is joking. That's why "joke" posts really aren't a good idea, as they do nothing to scumhunt. And if you're town, it's a fast track to getting suspicion placed on you all game long... Second: On September 06 2012 03:54 Ottoxlol wrote: Toad, I asked about the vote on Matt and he told me a bunch of things but dodged the question for 8-9 times. Those who started focusing on Gravan but ignored me. Those who voted Matt with a one liner. I asked for your top scumread, and this doesn't cut it. Blanket accusing everyone who focused on Gravan but not you, as well as those who made one-line cases for Mattchew is not constructive. Like why is it that those who focused on Gravan alone are suspicious? You've never discussed this at all, and it requires further explanation. And if you're going to discuss Toad as a top scumread, then please take more than one line to elaborate on it. | ||
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