When are you planning on starting this game?
Edit: I will not be replaced.
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When are you planning on starting this game? Edit: I will not be replaced. | ||
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On June 22 2012 16:46 rastaban wrote: Just caught up on what is the "haps", here are my thoughts. First, I agree with the Millers claim day one, and policy lynching all Millers after today. In a game where they are self aware it is a huge boon for town. The benefits far out way the negative of less people with possible blue roles. First and most importantly it guarantees our checks. Detectives know any red checks from non-mafia get lynched, since sanity isn't an issue in this game. Any Mafia will always claim miller if checked and we don't force a day 1 reveal. It will cause a lot of confusion, it is best to eliminate this by forcing day one claims. It also forces Mafia's hand, if they want to claim they have to do it now before they are in too much water. This is hard for mafia to do, they don't want to be scrutinized and that is why they claim miller as a last resort. While it is argued that Millers make it easier to snipe blues it also makes our blues more effective. Look at Bang Bang where I, as a doctor, pushed strongly for a miller claim night one. Second, the focus of Marv makes me think of karma after seeing him do it to Gonzaw in our last game together. We need to be careful with tunneling though, when you push someone so hard day1, they will often come across as scum no matter what since the only content you have is them trying to defend themselves against accusations. He could be scum but I just want to say that we need to be cautious, as I feel the case against him is a bit biased. Now his day 1 "meta" is to spam 1 liners so I personally wouldn't mind him getting lynched if there isn't a better candidate but I feel like there is too much discussion on him this early in our day. Remember we have 48 hours, half that time hasn't even passed yet so I don't like the band wagoning on Marv so quickly. That said I have a hard time getting anything from his filter right now. Some people analyze best when their quarry is under pressure but for me that introduces too many variables so I like to read posts where they aren't defending themselves. So marv would you mind answering the original question ( as leading as it may be) about what you feel are your tells, and second who do you feel is most likely scum? His post a huge ball of fluff. The miller issue has already been argued to death, and everyone except Zephirdd agrees that millers should claim during D1. The second section consists of him arguing that it's dumb to tunnel players (marv in particular). In the end of it he says "Remember we have 48 hours, half that time hasn't even passed yet so I don't like the band wagoning on Marv so quickly." which initially makes him appear pro-town, but in reality it's just bullshit. What do you mean with the band-wagoning on marv going quickly? He just had 3 votes on him by the time you were writing this (2 now) and the only guys who seems very intent on lynching him is VE and Probulous (risk's vote looked more like a pressure vote). I mainly see scum posting unnecessary advice like this where they encourage everyone to be calm and collected when voting and not to rush things, especially when there isn't even any real bandwagoning going on. @Snarfs What do you mean with when you say that MrZentor tried to correct his errors in the recent WBG mini mafia? Did he play even worse before that? In EMM he only posted one-liners, and he could have been either scum or town; it was impossible to read him. | ||
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What do you mean | ||
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That case is extraordinarily weak. You could've summed it up in one sentence: "risk.nuke has not yet posted anything of value.". The part about him switching his vote is not a scum tell, and what had happened was that ten more hours passed without VK posting anything. It's just a simple pressure vote. | ||
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For today's lynch I suggest rastaban. His cautious first post is scummy, and his case on risk.nuke is scummy as well. ##Vote rastaban | ||
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On June 24 2012 03:17 Zephirdd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 23 2012 18:08 marvellosity wrote: I'm not sure how you can play mafia Zeph if it feels fabricated to you. It means you have no pulse at all on the psychology and emotion in a game, and therefore I really don't know how you can even try to play successfully :/ AtE much? Show nested quote + On June 24 2012 01:49 risk.nuke wrote: rastaban zephirdd and zentor, what are your thoughts on eachother? rastaban sounds like town with bad cases. Zentor sounds trollish and uninterested, usually a signal of a VT(because VT is indeed an uninteresting role) or a scum(with the intention of creating confusion in the thread and wasting discussion). IMO, Zentor sounds like a good day 1 lynch atm. ##Vote MrZentor Can you explain why rastaban sounds like town? Because when I looked at Bang Bang I didn't really see any similarities with his play in this game. At least no similarities that you wouldn't expect from the same player regardless of alignment, anyway. How did you go from thinking that rastaban was your best scum read to thinking that he is town? All you said was this: On June 23 2012 04:47 Zephirdd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 23 2012 04:25 slOosh wrote: Rastaban looks townish to me; the main case against him right now looks like "he is playing bad", rather than "he is playing like scum". Something in the back of my mind is still clicking everytime I read Snarfs. Can you cool cats reread his last post and tell me your thoughts? It would be great to get some discussion particularly from marv, prplhz and risk.nuke. And as for now here will be my preliminary vote to hold me accountable. ##Vote: Snarfs All I read from his last post is "there is no difference between Zentor and risk.nuke". The only way this would be a scum tell if risk was scum. idk, snarfs looks null to me. Well, the most glaring scum tell so far(for me) is rastaban, but if you think about it he's just playing as his town meta(based on bang bang) and all he's done is a bad case, not a scummy case. Since he is "the most glaring scum tell so far" for you, you must've surely seen some clear signs pointing toward him being town when you read Bang Bang Mafia for you to believe that he is town. | ||
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Good post. I am growing suspicious of him as well. That's why I questioned him here. I don't know if we have enough time or enough people to lynch him, but I think I'd rather have him lynched than rastaban or Zentor. | ||
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On June 24 2012 05:48 Zephirdd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 24 2012 03:29 Shraft wrote: On June 24 2012 03:17 Zephirdd wrote: On June 23 2012 18:08 marvellosity wrote: I'm not sure how you can play mafia Zeph if it feels fabricated to you. It means you have no pulse at all on the psychology and emotion in a game, and therefore I really don't know how you can even try to play successfully :/ AtE much? On June 24 2012 01:49 risk.nuke wrote: rastaban zephirdd and zentor, what are your thoughts on eachother? rastaban sounds like town with bad cases. Zentor sounds trollish and uninterested, usually a signal of a VT(because VT is indeed an uninteresting role) or a scum(with the intention of creating confusion in the thread and wasting discussion). IMO, Zentor sounds like a good day 1 lynch atm. ##Vote MrZentor Can you explain why rastaban sounds like town? Because when I looked at Bang Bang I didn't really see any similarities with his play in this game. At least no similarities that you wouldn't expect from the same player regardless of alignment, anyway. How did you go from thinking that rastaban was your best scum read to thinking that he is town? All you said was this: On June 23 2012 04:47 Zephirdd wrote: On June 23 2012 04:25 slOosh wrote: Rastaban looks townish to me; the main case against him right now looks like "he is playing bad", rather than "he is playing like scum". Something in the back of my mind is still clicking everytime I read Snarfs. Can you cool cats reread his last post and tell me your thoughts? It would be great to get some discussion particularly from marv, prplhz and risk.nuke. And as for now here will be my preliminary vote to hold me accountable. ##Vote: Snarfs All I read from his last post is "there is no difference between Zentor and risk.nuke". The only way this would be a scum tell if risk was scum. idk, snarfs looks null to me. Well, the most glaring scum tell so far(for me) is rastaban, but if you think about it he's just playing as his town meta(based on bang bang) and all he's done is a bad case, not a scummy case. Since he is "the most glaring scum tell so far" for you, you must've surely seen some clear signs pointing toward him being town when you read Bang Bang Mafia for you to believe that he is town. Maybe I should have explained it better. I said it was "the most glaring scum tell" because there wasn't anything else at the time. In the same post, I say that it's probably just a bad case. From what I've read, he is looking similar to his BangBang2 meta. similar. This much I already get. What I am interested in is what made you jump from glaring scum tell to town. If it's a meta argument it must be something very indicative so that you can be sure of his alignment, right? I mean, how can you be so sure of him being town just because of some similarities? I believe that every player acts in a (somewhat) similar way in every game, regardless of alignment. I'd like you to elaborate more on what made you think rastaban is town, if you please. Something more specific than just the general "there are some similarities". | ||
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And what the fuck is this? On June 25 2012 07:51 risk.nuke wrote: Rastaban if you really are townie (which I don't think you are) you dodged a lynch last night and seeing how we mislynched a townie that makes the situation even worse for you. My point is if you don't want to die soon you should do something more usefull then dumb shit tunneling. He would've tried to dodge the lynch regardless of his alignment, why do you act as if it is a scum tell? | ||
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I'm not trying to make something out of nothing. The issue with that post is that he takes something that is a null tell and says that it makes rastaban look even scummier. The reason that I brought up that he unnecessarily defended is because he mentioned it in bypass in this post where he said he wanted MrZ to explain himself. He says "He spends half of his posts unnecessarily defending himself and the other half is useless 1-worders.". You're right on the lurker lynching part, he never explicitly says "I want to lynch lurkers". I took it for granted that he had said something along those lines after reading someone else's post about risk, quite likely this post by VE, but now, after looking through his filter, I realised that he hadn't. The closest thing he's said would be that he was too lenient on lurkers before, which clearly isn't the same thing. risk.nuke is a null tell for me right now. Can you explain why you have a town read on him? | ||
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On June 26 2012 00:33 marvellosity wrote: :/ I've swung around again. I really think VE is scum, or actually quite possibly SK. I'm making my town tell on his emotion to a null tell. He proved in LI he can get all 'emotional' as scum. Firstly I just can't get over the way he pushed me. Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 07:14 VisceraEyes wrote: Let's try and figure out a way to figure out if we're town right here and right now... :/ Because it's going to help me a lot if I can trust you. I now know you're a fucking beast as scum. What do you suggest? Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 09:20 VisceraEyes wrote: This was his defense in LV, the Zim themed large we were just in. Marv DOMINATED that game as scum, and look at what his first act of the game was (upon replacing in)! It was using his "meta" as a personalized defense against my accusations. Look at his defense this game! Oddly enough, it's a personalized "meta" defense again! Marv, your response? Ok, so we've established he thinks I'm totes amazing scummer. It makes absolutely no sense to me how he thinks someone as good at scumplay as I am would get myself into this situation. xscsc summarised it quite nicely: Show nested quote + On June 25 2012 22:17 xsksc wrote: Again, I'm gonna have to disagree with my predecessor here. People, including him, were pointing out that the way that you answered the question, and the argument following it, didn't make sense for a townie. However, it really doesn't make sense for scum either. Any remotely decent scum player is going to put 10x the thought into how they answer questions regarding their alignment and would never have answered that way, it draws wayyyyy too much negative attention, for no gain. I don't think you handled it the best way, but I think people need to realise that a bad play does not equal scum. This is the crux of it, and xcksc hasn't even seen my scumplay, but he understands. Yet VE who saw me trash town in LIV and LV as scum does not see it. Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 09:51 VisceraEyes wrote: I don't underestimate you, which is why I know scumMarv wouldn't think twice about side-stepping the question. Take it as a compliment, not an affront. This doesn't add up. Clearly sidestepping Matt's question WAS NOT the correct scumplay. Just look at what's happened. There's a mental disconnect going on. Show nested quote + On June 23 2012 00:21 VisceraEyes wrote: There are differences marv. For instance, townMarv is interested in finding scum. scumMarv is interested in lynching townies. Also, both townMarv and scumMarv are good enough to realize that I'm very obviously town in this game, so the fact that you're calling me "dodgy" still (not scummy, not scum, not suspicious, not suspect....."dodgy") just confirms that you're not interested in finding scum today. For that, you're gonna die friend. Sorry. *shrug* First paragraph is just trite, it says nothing. He's just explaining the wincon for a townie and scummer. I commented before on the 2nd part. Calling me out for finding him scummy, calling himself town. It's manipulative. Show nested quote + On June 23 2012 07:11 VisceraEyes wrote: Like, honestly. Marvel is much better than this. He knows that me targeting him if he's town does not automatically make me scum. This is literally the DEFINITION of OMGUS. He literally just said "I know I'm town, so because VE is targeting me, he's scum" and has fabricated some kind of fantasy to justify calling me such. Marv is definitely my preference for lynch. He knows better. He's acting like he doesn't, but he does. When I accused him before, I wasn't calling him scum because I was town. I'd said I had the perspective of 100% knowing I was town that others did not. I simply did not say he was scum because he was accusing me. Twisted my words. On the day 1 lynch: Realising he's not gonna get me through, he turns his attention to Zentor. Subsequently: Show nested quote + On June 24 2012 04:54 VisceraEyes wrote: risk do you think that scum only lurk? Because you're really only pushing people who aren't likely to push back. :/ Marv do your own meta research. I'm also feeling strange about the ease of this lynch. I also don't want to lynch Zentor. Can we lynch either risk or prpl? maybe Marv? This is where it all gets odd. He doesn't want to lynch Zentor, and lists 3 other people. Who doesn't he name? The other leading candidiate, rastaban. He is realistically the only alternative, but nothing. Compare - slOosh was trying really hard to get people to switch from Zentor to rastaban, but VE? nothing. Let's see if VE ever talks about rastaban: Show nested quote + On June 23 2012 08:26 VisceraEyes wrote: @Snarfs Yeah, I'm null on rasta. He looks pretty townie to me too, but to be fair I've only skimmed the cases on him. I'll go read them in earnest and let you know what I think. This is it. Nothing else. He never lets us know what he thinks of the alternative lynch candidate, despite promising to, and despite saying he didn't want to lynch Zentor. It's a half-assed, not-real attempt. Show nested quote + On June 24 2012 05:16 VisceraEyes wrote: Actually prpl, that post was good. I'm cool with a Zeph lynch if we can make that happen. Except VE never tries to make ANYTHING happen. He says this and disappears. I also feel like his pushing of prplhz is a sham. He came straight from LV where two townies pushed hard for a policy lynch on a player they disliked. He should know this isn't a scumtell. But it looks good to push someone on wanting a policy lynch like that, doesn't it? Conclusion: All his scumhunting is a sham. He knows and states I'm an excellent scum player, but somehow then thinks I would come into this game as scum and play scummily. He twists my words. He never talks about rastaban despite promising to, despite saying he didn't want to lynch Zentor and rastaban being the main alternative. In fact he never pushes any alternative. Pushes prplhz because it's an easy thing to do. I think VE is scum (or SK :D) I don't see how the first section of your case has anything to do with VE being scum. You acted scummy by not answering Mattchew's question straight. The way I see it, you have no reason whatsoever to not answer the question as honestly and precise as you can as town. Refusing to answer the question properly is anti-town, and anti-town play is something that favours scum, regardless of your explanation that you play scummier as town. Your explanation that it wasn't the correct scum play does not satisfy me. You couldn't know beforehand which option (answering the question properly/avoiding it) would benefit you more, as explaining exactly how you play as scum can also be a huge detriment to your team. So, there are two possibilities: 1) You're an anti-town acting townie. 2) You're scum who didn't think you'd catch this much shit for not answering his question. Irrespective of which explanation is the more likely one, I don't see how VE pressuring you for this is incriminating at all. It's more of a town tell to me. Regarding the part where he says that you are OMGUSing, he does twist your words (but only a little). I don't think it says much. What you are saying in your post is akin to OMGUSing, but with a bit more reasoning behind it. This post by VE is a null tell. I do think you make a fair point with the last part of your case. VE voting to lynch Zentor in spite of him saying that he doesn't want to lynch him is scummy. He has given his explanation on this, saying that he was busy doing IRL stuff and didn't have the time to make an effort to try to sway the lynch (the only other viable target without some serious pushing was rastaban). I don't like IRL-excuses, but I don't think that this point alone is enough to warrant a VE lynch. | ||
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On June 26 2012 11:42 Probulous wrote: marvellosity Marvel started this game in an open manner by offering to answer any question asked of him but he was suprised by Mattchew's question and responded rashly. This in itself is not a scum tell, an off balance townie could do the same. But his subsequent insistence on not responding is damning in my eyes. + Show Spoiler [Marvs initial reaction] + On June 22 2012 07:19 marvellosity wrote: Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 07:19 VisceraEyes wrote: On June 22 2012 07:16 marvellosity wrote: On June 22 2012 07:14 VisceraEyes wrote: Let's try and figure out a way to figure out if we're town right here and right now... :/ Because it's going to help me a lot if I can trust you. I now know you're a fucking beast as scum. What do you suggest? you may quiz me and i will answer your questions. TOWN God, that was easy. Who's next? .........what kind of questions? Obviously that's what I meant marvel LOL well, that part of the figuring out bit I thought I'd leave to you. On June 22 2012 07:29 marvellosity wrote: Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 07:22 Mattchew wrote: Hi All, I want MrZentor dead. On June 22 2012 07:16 marvellosity wrote: On June 22 2012 07:14 VisceraEyes wrote: Let's try and figure out a way to figure out if we're town right here and right now... :/ Because it's going to help me a lot if I can trust you. I now know you're a fucking beast as scum. What do you suggest? you may quiz me and i will answer your questions. Marv, if you were to pick out the differences in your scum play and your town play, what would you point to? I like this question a lot. I think there are a couple of possible tells. But tell me what you think first. On June 22 2012 07:31 VisceraEyes wrote: The point of the self-evaluation was to see if you left anything out - obviously we can go and look for ourselves Marv, and we'll have our own opinion...but for you to turn the question around and ask for his answer first is incredibly scummy and immediately forces me to not trust you. On June 22 2012 07:32 marvellosity wrote: lol, ok dear. If people could look for themselves, then maybe just one person in the whole of LV and the obsQT might have had a tingling suspicion, no? No. Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 07:34 marvellosity wrote: On June 22 2012 07:31 VisceraEyes wrote: The point of the self-evaluation was to see if you left anything out - obviously we can go and look for ourselves Marv, and we'll have our own opinion...but for you to turn the question around and ask for his answer first is incredibly scummy and immediately forces me to not trust you. count how many times anyone said i said or even hinted at anything scummy in LV see the pressure i was under at the start in magic at the start for wanting to shoot NT off the bat compare to current situation profit This is the key quote and one I keep coming back to. He has turned his initial confused response into a positive proof he is town. Why? This was very early day 1, VE had labelled him scum but VE always does this early and changes his position regularly. The simplest way to clear your name would be actually answer the question. Instead he uses the fact that he is acting scummy to try and clear his name, thus avoiding the work. Again, I can see a flustered scum here not sure how to respond so early in the game to this kind of pressure. So he decides to try and use that pressure to clear his name rather than doing the hard work and answer the question. It isn't easy playing a different meta than you are used to so if he could deflect the question he could continue to play his normal game. I am not marvellosity so I can't say whether he would respond the same way if he were scum or if he were scum, simply because I think he was caught off guard. All I can do is compare him to what I would expect a town or scum would do. I would expect a townie to say something like "Shit that's a hard question, give me some time to think about it" if he was thrown off balance. + Show Spoiler [My first response to Marv] + On June 22 2012 08:40 Probulous wrote: Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 08:29 VisceraEyes wrote: Votes = Tools. Not going over this again this game. Fair enough, I forgot who I was asking. You did back off Marv pretty quickly though. Why? I mean this is terrible and you pointed it out Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 07:30 VisceraEyes wrote: On June 22 2012 07:29 marvellosity wrote: On June 22 2012 07:22 Mattchew wrote: Marv, if you were to pick out the differences in your scum play and your town play, what would you point to? I like this question a lot. I think there are a couple of possible tells. But tell me what you think first. SCUM Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 07:31 VisceraEyes wrote: The point of the self-evaluation was to see if you left anything out - obviously we can go and look for ourselves Marv, and we'll have our own opinion...but for you to turn the question around and ask for his answer first is incredibly scummy and immediately forces me to not trust you. He still hasn't responded adequately. He is around note Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 08:17 marvellosity wrote: VE, prplhz last played with Zentor in WoF. Enough said really. But is he isn't bothering to actually answer Mattchew's question. So yeah, why the let up? Marv, I want that alimony! Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 08:44 marvellosity wrote: Probey, you'll have to get in touch with my lawyer. And I have at least partly answered the question, you're just not on the ball enough to have worked it out yet. By now he is adamant that he won't respond to the question. It has not become a case of being flustered but a concious decision. When I join in the questioning, he dismisses me. He fobs me off with a "go read the thread" response. This attitude of not wanting to contribute and making others do the work is scummy. It's sarcastic and designed to rile me up. He did a similar thing to VE. Why would you respond in this manner if you were town? The tone is designed to piss people off. Remember marvel has chosen to act this way. He believes that by playing a scummy game he can appear town. That is his whole exlpanation at this point, so if he is scum it makes sense to piss people off. He can create confusion and a massive shitfest which ruins day 1. He clearly doesn't think he will get lynched, he say so later. VE, picks up on the tone issue in his next post. + Show Spoiler [VE] + On June 22 2012 08:51 VisceraEyes wrote: Yeah let's lynch marv. Prob you down? ##Vote: marvellosity Hubris does NOT become you sir. and I point out the ridiculousness of not answering the question + Show Spoiler [Probulous] + On June 22 2012 08:54 Probulous wrote: Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 08:44 marvellosity wrote: Probey, you'll have to get in touch with my lawyer. And I have at least partly answered the question, you're just not on the ball enough to have worked it out yet. Show nested quote + count how many times anyone said i said or even hinted at anything scummy in LV see the pressure i was under at the start in magic at the start for wanting to shoot NT off the bat compare to current situation Why are you so cryptic? It's your job to prove you're town so you should want to provide information to us. ##Vote marvellosity This time it's personal @Mattchew, you have nothing to say By now Marv's play is clear, refuse to answer clearly and then use his scummy play as an excuse. He has already gained two votes which would normally force a townie to actually contribute but he doesn't. Why? because this is his plan. He wants to look scummy and then go "hey look I always look scummy as town". Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 08:55 marvellosity wrote: it's not cryptic, it's blindingly fucking obvious. jesus christ Why the indignation here? Why is he is pissed off at both VE and myself for not realising that he is town because he looks like scum. It is a ridiculous premise so of course we want further explanantion. Then VE comes up with the defensive nature of marvel's posting which marvel used as his defense. the way I read this, VE is simply stating that Marv is using his defensive posting as an excuse for palying scummy. + Show Spoiler + On June 22 2012 09:20 VisceraEyes wrote: :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Anyways look what I found guys! Show nested quote + On May 30 2012 06:16 marvellosity wrote: On May 30 2012 06:16 VisceraEyes wrote: Marvel, the correct response is "my thoughts are X and Y and Z"...my question of you wasn't an accusation, so there's no need to get defensive. Saying things like "I already said" and "I made a comment" are very defensive when all I wanted was your input. :/ Much like Magic you are reading my responses as defensive when they were not. I'm just baffled you are asking questions I have already stated clear opinions on or at least alluded to. This was his defense in LV, the Zim themed large we were just in. Marv DOMINATED that game as scum, and look at what his first act of the game was (upon replacing in)! It was using his "meta" as a personalized defense against my accusations. Look at his defense this game! Oddly enough, it's a personalized "meta" defense again! Marv, your response? On June 22 2012 09:23 marvellosity wrote: I'm supposed to talk about someone else in my defence? And in the nested quote it states quite clearly there weren't any accusations... that's twice this game now you've misrepresented something, wilfully or not. i'm watching you Whether there are accusations or not is irrelevant. The point is you were using your defensive behaviour as a way to prove you're town. We cannot know this is true, there is no way of verifying it. Just because you were defensive in your last townie game does not mean if you are defensive here you are townie. ESPECIALLY if you use that as your defense. Again, surely a townie would just answer the original question clearly and transparently at this point. I mean both VE and myself were "obviously mistaken", but you didn't bother to clear that up did you? No the confusion was good, it was serving its purpose. + Show Spoiler [back and forth] + On June 22 2012 09:42 marvellosity wrote: Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 09:20 VisceraEyes wrote: :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Anyways look what I found guys! On May 30 2012 06:16 marvellosity wrote: On May 30 2012 06:16 VisceraEyes wrote: Marvel, the correct response is "my thoughts are X and Y and Z"...my question of you wasn't an accusation, so there's no need to get defensive. Saying things like "I already said" and "I made a comment" are very defensive when all I wanted was your input. :/ Much like Magic you are reading my responses as defensive when they were not. I'm just baffled you are asking questions I have already stated clear opinions on or at least alluded to. This was his defense in LV, the Zim themed large we were just in. Marv DOMINATED that game as scum, and look at what his first act of the game was (upon replacing in)! It was using his "meta" as a personalized defense against my accusations. Look at his defense this game! Oddly enough, it's a personalized "meta" defense again! Marv, your response? This is the second misrepresentation. Trying to compare a 'defence' in a game where I wasn't accused to my defence this game where I am in fact accused First misrepresentation: Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 07:34 marvellosity wrote: here's a clue count how many times anyone said i said or even hinted at anything scummy in LV see the pressure i was under at the start in magic at the start for wanting to shoot NT off the bat compare to current situation profit Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 08:57 VisceraEyes wrote: Probulous, what did you see when you went back and read Magic? When I went back, all I saw was a completely different opening strategy. I mean, he could just be doing a fast-expand or something, but it's looking kinda cheesy to me. :/ I clearly said what I was referring to in Magic and yet you try to pretend that you went and looked and didn't find anything. Despite the fact I said exactly what I was referring to. On June 22 2012 09:44 VisceraEyes wrote: Marv, I find myself to be terribly entertaining, so you're going to have to surround that statement with some sort of context if you want me to understand what you mean. Now, my argument isn't about you defending yourself for the same reason. My argument is that you're defending yourself in the same fashion...using meta. You're encouraging everyone to leave the thread and go read other games. Why? On June 22 2012 09:46 marvellosity wrote: Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 09:44 VisceraEyes wrote: Marv, I find myself to be terribly entertaining, so you're going to have to surround that statement with some sort of context if you want me to understand what you mean. Now, my argument isn't about you defending yourself for the same reason. My argument is that you're defending yourself in the same fashion...using meta. You're encouraging everyone to leave the thread and go read other games. Why? one was a defence, one was not. do you see yet? i didn't encourage people to leave the thread to read other games. i said i never said anything scummy in LV and I pointed out explicitly the scummy thing I was pressured for in magic. the whole original question was on meta, and now you're pushing me for defending on meta? really? I think VE got sidetracked here. Marv using meta is not a problem. As he states, the question was about meta. The point is that stating that "when you look scummy you are town" is not a useful use of meta. It doesn't answer the question and allows you to just refuse to answer. A useful meta point would be "when I am scum I tend to ..." not when I am scum I look like town. Anyway, I want you to note that he has now created a case against VE based on him being misrepresented twice. This will come up later. This is a pretty good post from VE which is clearer than his previous ones. Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 09:47 VisceraEyes wrote: On June 22 2012 09:42 marvellosity wrote: On June 22 2012 09:20 VisceraEyes wrote: :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Anyways look what I found guys! On May 30 2012 06:16 marvellosity wrote: On May 30 2012 06:16 VisceraEyes wrote: Marvel, the correct response is "my thoughts are X and Y and Z"...my question of you wasn't an accusation, so there's no need to get defensive. Saying things like "I already said" and "I made a comment" are very defensive when all I wanted was your input. :/ Much like Magic you are reading my responses as defensive when they were not. I'm just baffled you are asking questions I have already stated clear opinions on or at least alluded to. This was his defense in LV, the Zim themed large we were just in. Marv DOMINATED that game as scum, and look at what his first act of the game was (upon replacing in)! It was using his "meta" as a personalized defense against my accusations. Look at his defense this game! Oddly enough, it's a personalized "meta" defense again! Marv, your response? This is the second misrepresentation. Trying to compare a 'defence' in a game where I wasn't accused to my defence this game where I am in fact accused First misrepresentation: On June 22 2012 07:34 marvellosity wrote: here's a clue count how many times anyone said i said or even hinted at anything scummy in LV see the pressure i was under at the start in magic at the start for wanting to shoot NT off the bat compare to current situation profit On June 22 2012 08:57 VisceraEyes wrote: Probulous, what did you see when you went back and read Magic? When I went back, all I saw was a completely different opening strategy. I mean, he could just be doing a fast-expand or something, but it's looking kinda cheesy to me. :/ I clearly said what I was referring to in Magic and yet you try to pretend that you went and looked and didn't find anything. Despite the fact I said exactly what I was referring to. I "pretend" that I went and didn't find anything? I went and looked and I said EXACTLY what I found. I don't care about you wanting to shoot NT, nothing similar has happened this game to compare it to. When I went back, I found what I was looking for - you acting like a townie. You haven't done that this game. When I went and looked at your scum game, I found something there too - you defending yourself needlessly with meta. You HAVE done that this game. These aren't misrepresentations, they're observations I'm making. If you don't like it, STOP TELLING PEOPLE TO GO READ YOUR PREVIOUS GAMES. The point being, answer the original question clearly and transparently if you don't want people to misunderstand your reply. At this point it is clear that marv has achieved a few things. He has the thread focused on him, he looks scummy but is using this to try and prove he is town, he has created some suspicion on VE. So I call him out on it. Show nested quote + Which is a nothing answer. I guess that is fair enough at this point. This next post is another key one.On June 22 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: On June 22 2012 09:46 Probulous wrote: @Marv, do you think VE is scum? I think he's pushing me dodgily. Haven't worked out if it's scummy or VE just being VE yet. Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote: On June 22 2012 09:47 VisceraEyes wrote: On June 22 2012 09:42 marvellosity wrote: On June 22 2012 09:20 VisceraEyes wrote: :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Anyways look what I found guys! On May 30 2012 06:16 marvellosity wrote: On May 30 2012 06:16 VisceraEyes wrote: Marvel, the correct response is "my thoughts are X and Y and Z"...my question of you wasn't an accusation, so there's no need to get defensive. Saying things like "I already said" and "I made a comment" are very defensive when all I wanted was your input. :/ Much like Magic you are reading my responses as defensive when they were not. I'm just baffled you are asking questions I have already stated clear opinions on or at least alluded to. This was his defense in LV, the Zim themed large we were just in. Marv DOMINATED that game as scum, and look at what his first act of the game was (upon replacing in)! It was using his "meta" as a personalized defense against my accusations. Look at his defense this game! Oddly enough, it's a personalized "meta" defense again! Marv, your response? This is the second misrepresentation. Trying to compare a 'defence' in a game where I wasn't accused to my defence this game where I am in fact accused First misrepresentation: On June 22 2012 07:34 marvellosity wrote: here's a clue count how many times anyone said i said or even hinted at anything scummy in LV see the pressure i was under at the start in magic at the start for wanting to shoot NT off the bat compare to current situation profit On June 22 2012 08:57 VisceraEyes wrote: Probulous, what did you see when you went back and read Magic? When I went back, all I saw was a completely different opening strategy. I mean, he could just be doing a fast-expand or something, but it's looking kinda cheesy to me. :/ I clearly said what I was referring to in Magic and yet you try to pretend that you went and looked and didn't find anything. Despite the fact I said exactly what I was referring to. I "pretend" that I went and didn't find anything? I went and looked and I said EXACTLY what I found. I don't care about you wanting to shoot NT, nothing similar has happened this game to compare it to. When I went back, I found what I was looking for - you acting like a townie. You haven't done that this game. When I went and looked at your scum game, I found something there too - you defending yourself needlessly with meta. You HAVE done that this game. These aren't misrepresentations, they're observations I'm making. If you don't like it, STOP TELLING PEOPLE TO GO READ YOUR PREVIOUS GAMES. I've quite clearly stated I am not, stop it. The similar thing, VE, is that I wasn't afraid of saying something that was scummy in that game. In this game, unless you underestimate me which I think you do not, you should be aware that I know making a sidestep to Mattchew's question could be viewed scummily, and I'd avoid it like the fucking plague if I were scum. Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 09:52 marvellosity wrote: Don't be an idiot. Why would I let myself in for this (fairly predictable, even if how long and hard it has continued was not) when I didn't have to? Use your noggin. So now the plan becomes clear. He was caught off guard early and made a response he would not normally make as either town or scum, but here he is saying the he would avoid it like the plague is he were mafia. But apparently not as town? It makes less sense from a town perspective to not answer a straight up question than it does from a mafia point of view. Mafia get away with causing a shitstorm knowing they are unlikely to be lynched. Why? Because he can fall back on his meta showing that he is careful as mafia. Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 09:52 marvellosity wrote: Don't be an idiot. Why would I let myself in for this (fairly predictable, even if how long and hard it has continued was not) when I didn't have to? Use your noggin. Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 09:54 VisceraEyes wrote: See, the funny part is that you could ask yourself the same question. Why would you put yourself in this situation as town? It doesn't make any fucking sense. Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 09:56 marvellosity wrote: a) because i'm unafraid b) because i get information from who and how i'm pushed Here we have the reveal that this was all a townie plan by Marvel to gain information on those pushing him. Really, well what has he gained so far? That VE may or may not be scum...That's it. In the process he has caused the whole thread to be entirely focused on him. Worse he doesn't regret it. He thinks it is a good idea. At this point we have had no other cases presented, no other scumhunting. Nothing. How is that a positive for town? Anyway I outline my position here + Show Spoiler [probulous position] + On June 22 2012 09:58 Probulous wrote: Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: On June 22 2012 09:46 Probulous wrote: @Marv, do you think VE is scum? I think he's pushing me dodgily. Haven't worked out if it's scummy or VE just being VE yet. See here is what I don't understand.
Why haven't you answered the original question? You admitted it's a good question, you claim VE is misrepresenting you but isn't scum so surely the best way to clear your name would be to outline exactly what you intended when you briefly referenced those games. I mean you seem to be saying that VE is mistaken but don't bother to actually take the time to thorughly correct the mistake. Why? Because you don't want to answer the question. Townies want to provide data and clarity and you just wanted to move onto other things. Has Matt just left the thread then? >< On June 22 2012 10:17 Probulous wrote: 1) You proactively ask people to question you so you can prove your alignment. Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 07:16 marvellosity wrote: you may quiz me and i will answer your questions. 2) Then you dilberately obfuscate and avoid answering the question Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 07:29 marvellosity wrote: On June 22 2012 07:22 Mattchew wrote: Marv, if you were to pick out the differences in your scum play and your town play, what would you point to? I like this question a lot. I think there are a couple of possible tells. But tell me what you think first. Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 07:32 marvellosity wrote: lol, ok dear. If people could look for themselves, then maybe just one person in the whole of LV and the obsQT might have had a tingling suspicion, no? No. 3)You explain that this was not a mistake but instead part of an elaborate plan to do something no scum would do and so therefore prove you are town Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 10:05 marvellosity wrote: "The similar thing, VE, is that I wasn't afraid of saying something that was scummy in that game. In this game, unless you underestimate me which I think you do not, you should be aware that I know making a sidestep to Mattchew's question could be viewed scummily, and I'd avoid it like the fucking plague if I were scum." If you are town, you are saying that you deliberately avoided answering Mattchew to cause a shitstorm to prove you're town? You don't say it was a mistake, or a joke but rather a calculated plan. You give yourself too little credit Marv. I think you're scum who tried to joke off a difficult question and didn't expect people to latch onto it. Now you are backpedalling as fast as you can. To which I get this enlightening response Show nested quote + On June 22 2012 10:19 marvellosity wrote: wrong way of looking at it Prob if I were scum I'd have thought more before answering matt's question. even if this conversation has been quite interesting WHY? Better yet why would you not do this as town. Especially after everyone starting piling onto you. Saying you are careful as scum is not a perfect defense that excuses you from participating. Note up till now he has provided nothing else. He hasn't pushed a case or done anything of value except defend himself with I am smart as scum so I wouldn't do that. I give you the perfect marvel plan. Play badly and then claim you have perfect scum play so you cannot be scum. TLDR: marvel was caught off guard by Mattchew's question and chose to throw it back to the thread. This in itself could be a town response but when he told us that his scummy behaviour made him town, he hit on a plan to ensure he wasn't lynched. He knew his initial response was inadequate but chose to use his scummy response as a tool to cause confusion and shit up the thread. By never taking the multiples chances he had, to clarify his original position, he ensured that the mess continued for as long as possible. Whenever VE or I pushed him to contribute he could just reply with his meta defense that he cannot be scum because scum would never do this. If we believe that, then we would never lynch anyone. If he had just stated the truth, that he responded rashly and would take the time to provide a proper answer, I would have dropped this case. But his insistence that it takes up as much of Day 1 as possible makes me believe he is mafia. ##Vote marvellosity The case is has a clear focal point and is so long, so I'll just address it all at once rather than commenting each section. If you want elaboration on some point, just tell me and I'll comment on it when I am not half-asleep. I outlined in my previous post that I think his insistence to not answer is anti-town. As you pointed out, it is even scummier when he tries to turn it into a proof that he is town. The town way to deal with the situation would be to answer as well as you could, if not initially, then at least once you realise that you're attracting suspicion and shifting the focus away from productive discussion. I just don't see the town motivation behind marv's course of action, and I think that your case makes sense. ##Vote marvellosity | ||
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