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Note: This is not a 3 base build. I'm still trying to perfect the timings on when to put down the third. Most of my games have consisted of a later third when using this build opener. (Staying as defensive as possible)
I'll add a replay for the drone counts soon, I've just been busy recently. Please do not take this build as an insult to what pro players have tested, I don't want anybody to argue over whether it's something they should use instead, or the fact that it's the "better" way to open.
Well, I'm not too sure who else has been doing this recently, or just ever. But it seems to be working for me really well. Most zerg players are opening with a 14 pool or a 15 hatch vs protoss. This build is meant for two things:
1 - You get to hatch first safely without your expo being blocked by a pylon. Your natural plants just before a probe arrives. *Revised for the complaints*
2 - You get double queens and double hatches the fastest way possible, which thus enables you with a huge burst economically for larva and drones afterwards, therefore you don't fall behind.
BO:
12 ExtractorTrick-Hatch
11 Pool
10 Extractor Trick for 1 Drone
11 Overlord
14 Queen
16 Queen
18 Overlord
Drone
24 Overlord
Drone
28 Overlord
Drone
34 Overlord
Drone
40 Overlord x2
and so on....
Step 1: 12 ExtractorTrick-Hatch
![[image loading]](http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/6944/screenshot2012052719160.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/8313/screenshot2012052719162.jpg)
Step 2: 11 Pool
![[image loading]](http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2319/screenshot2012052719163.jpg)
Step 3: Extractor Trick 1 Drone + 1 Overlord, Drone to 14 supply and then stop.
![[image loading]](http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2186/screenshot2012052719175.jpg)
When your pool hits, you should have exactly 150 minerals for your first Queen. Your natural should still be finishing for the next 5 seconds, and when it hits, you should have another 150 minerals for your second queen (look below).
![[image loading]](http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2316/screenshot2012052719180.jpg)
From here on, you hit your overlord on 18 and then drone up as usual, making sure you don't miss any injects. If you want to time your queens at the same time, you can always delay the first one slightly, but it's up to you.
Thanks for reading guys!!!.
-Bananas
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The things you can do with extractor tricking
Thanks, i'll try this out in real games
Can this build be integrated into more common zvp builds such as the 12 minute roach max out?
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2nd option:
I just wanted to add on, that if you mix in 1 gas geyser at 10/10 instead of extractor tricking for quick ling speed, if the protoss player decides to nexus first after scouting your quick natural, you can get to their base and potentially end the game quickly with a bunch of speedlings rallied to their natural. You'll have 11 drones for minerals and unlimited larva with the two queens for a relentless attack.
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On May 28 2012 11:42 Monsyphon wrote:
The things you can do with extractor tricking
Thanks, i'll try this out in real games
Can this build be integrated into more common zvp builds such as the 12 minute roach max out?
You can max out on roaches within 12 minutes with this build, I've already tested it.
-Bananas
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Can we get drone counts for 4/5/6 minutes, and compare that to normal build timings. I get the theory, and it sounds good, but I feel like you're sacrificing too many drones early in order to make this happen. I mean in 2 of your pictures you have 3 larvae (one of them there are 2 drones that just started, and a larvae sitting there) that means you actually have less larvae than someone else at any point of the game. The early queens MIGHT make up for that, but I'm not convinced yet. Please and thank you for drone counts!
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United States8476 Posts
I agree with the previous suggestions. Compare and contrast the drone counts of your build and a standard 3 hatch build.
Also, gonna add a D tag to this. Please read strategy forum guidelines and properly tag your thread next time.
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Updated the drone counts in the main post for ya.
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United States8476 Posts
On May 28 2012 11:58 Keyz1 wrote:
Updated the drone counts in the main post for ya.
Maybe add the drone counts for a 3 hatch build, so people can compare? Open up a few professional ZvP replays to get those pretty easily. Most people don't know how many drones they have at x time with a normal build, so it's useless just to post your build's drone counts.
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Dude this is terrible. Your premises are completely wacked out.
It's like saying "Hatch First is amazing!" but throwing it down at 6. "2 queens quickly is amazing! 6 pool and you'll have 2 queens before 14 poolers or hatch firster have 1!".
You are cutting WAY too many drones doing this opening. Double extractor trick also hurts, there is absolutely no reason to do that. The only reason you want to extractor trick is to get more drones in a short period of time, when you don't plan to make any more, and don't plan to bank money (ie 6 pool aggression with no plans to expand)
Seeing as how you are expanding here, you definitely need money. If you ever plan to expand, you should never extractor trick.
Also, by the way, you are still vulnerable to cannon rushes doing this. I don't know why you think you aren't - if your pool is later than 10 (and pool first at that, by the way), then toss can succesfully cannon rush you unless you pull drones, in the exact same manner as if you went 15 pool or hatch first.
A 14 pool goes down at 2:00. I see your 11 pool is going down at 2:14. So how in the world you think your 11 pool is good for defense, when it's down later than 14 pool? 14 pool is susceptible to cannon rushing and ramp blocking just the same as well. So you are less likely to do aggression early on or defend easier than 14 pool with this build.
And just because you get 2 queens out early, doesn't necessarily equate to better economy. Otherwise everyone would just 6 pool 6 hatch. You need a certain amount of drones, before hand, to make it worthwhile. Generally, that number is around 14-16.
And you saying you can make units earlier to handle 2 base all-ins shows a complete lack of understanding of the match-up... you realize such timings hit at 8:00+ right? Your opening will have very little bearing on timings made around then. 14 pool, 15 pool, 20 hatch, 16 hatch, these openings give very, very minor advantages at such timings (as in 1-4 drones worth, or maybe 100-300 minerals), but if you go double extractor trick, 11 pool, 12 hatch, you will definitely be behind a good chunk at such timings. Although again, it won't really matter, but if anything, you'll be slightly behind.
You saying you only have enough for 1 queen is evidence enough of how behind this build puts you. Your pool is later than a standard 14 pool, and you only have enough money for 1 queen - you should have enough for 2 queens, or about 300 minerals, at the 3:20 mark (actually more like 400, since 14 pool puts down the pool at 2:00 and your 11 pool is 2:14).
I recommend you check out the zerg openers thread, where they talk about a lot of the things you are talking about here, and you would see how sub-optimal they were anyways.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464
The only benefits I see in this build is that if Toss cannon rushes you, you can use drones to hold off the initial cannons and maybe have 6 lings out in time when he gets that critical mass of money and throws down 4+ cannon/pylons that 15 drones all pulled can't deal with - but you are just hurting yourself so much by going double extractor trick and such early pools.
You would be better off economically just going 14 pool 20 hatch.
Sorry. There is a reason why all the pros do the openings they do. People have done their research on these things. I'm not saying they are all correct, many koreans still extractor trick every game, but you have to come up with some evidence. Simply saying "Hey guys, I go 12 hatch 11 pool and I win on ladder!" isn't enough. Not neeaarly enough, not even if you were high masters. You have to give evidence why it's good. Saying you can hold 2 base all-ins makes no sense at all since that's way after openings are relevant, or that you can put aggression on toss (toss is the one who puts aggression on you...).
User was warned for this post
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what's with the drone counts section? You aren't telling us how you are testing (are you making queens and gases and bulidings like you do in a normal game? what map is this? Are you taking 3 hatches?).
I mean if you are making 4 lings, 3 queens, a roach warren, 2 gas, evo chamber, lair, speed, than 50 drones at 6:30 is damn impressive. You really have 50 drones already actually out and mining at 6:30?
Please, show us the replay! That's insane. You are telling us that just by tweaking our openings a little bit, you can have about 30 more drones than DRG has at the 6:30 mark! That's insane! You're going to completely change the metagame!
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On May 28 2012 12:05 Belial88 wrote:Dude this is terrible. Your premises are completely wacked out. It's like saying "Hatch First is amazing!" but throwing it down at 6. "2 queens quickly is amazing! 6 pool and you'll have 2 queens before 14 poolers or hatch firster have 1!". You are cutting WAY too many drones doing this opening. Double extractor trick also hurts, there is absolutely no reason to do that. The only reason you want to extractor trick is to get more drones in a short period of time, when you don't plan to make any more, and don't plan to bank money (ie 6 pool aggression with no plans to expand) Seeing as how you are expanding here, you definitely need money. If you ever plan to expand, you should never extractor trick. Also, by the way, you are still vulnerable to cannon rushes doing this. I don't know why you think you aren't - if your pool is later than 10 (and pool first at that, by the way), then toss can succesfully cannon rush you unless you pull drones, in the exact same manner as if you went 15 pool or hatch first. A 14 pool goes down at 2:00. I see your 11 pool is going down at 2:14. So how in the world you think your 11 pool is good for defense, when it's down later than 14 pool? 14 pool is susceptible to cannon rushing and ramp blocking just the same as well. So you are less likely to do aggression early on or defend easier than 14 pool with this build. And just because you get 2 queens out early, doesn't necessarily equate to better economy. Otherwise everyone would just 6 pool 6 hatch. You need a certain amount of drones, before hand, to make it worthwhile. Generally, that number is around 14-16. And you saying you can make units earlier to handle 2 base all-ins shows a complete lack of understanding of the match-up... you realize such timings hit at 8:00+ right? Your opening will have very little bearing on timings made around then. 14 pool, 15 pool, 20 hatch, 16 hatch, these openings give very, very minor advantages at such timings (as in 1-4 drones worth, or maybe 100-300 minerals), but if you go double extractor trick, 11 pool, 12 hatch, you will definitely be behind a good chunk at such timings. Although again, it won't really matter, but if anything, you'll be slightly behind. You saying you only have enough for 1 queen is evidence enough of how behind this build puts you. Your pool is later than a standard 14 pool, and you only have enough money for 1 queen - you should have enough for 2 queens, or about 300 minerals, at the 3:20 mark (actually more like 400, since 14 pool puts down the pool at 2:00 and your 11 pool is 2:14). I recommend you check out the zerg openers thread, where they talk about a lot of the things you are talking about here, and you would see how sub-optimal they were anyways. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464The only benefits I see in this build is that if Toss cannon rushes you, you can use drones to hold off the initial cannons and maybe have 6 lings out in time when he gets that critical mass of money and throws down 4+ cannon/pylons that 15 drones all pulled can't deal with - but you are just hurting yourself so much by going double extractor trick and such early pools. You would be better off economically just going 14 pool 20 hatch. Sorry. There is a reason why all the pros do the openings they do. People have done their research on these things. I'm not saying they are all correct, many koreans still extractor trick every game, but you have to come up with some evidence. Simply saying "Hey guys, I go 12 hatch 11 pool and I win on ladder!" isn't enough. Not neeaarly enough, not even if you were high masters. You have to give evidence why it's good. Saying you can hold 2 base all-ins makes no sense at all since that's way after openings are relevant, or that you can put aggression on toss (toss is the one who puts aggression on you...). User was warned for this post
Just wondering, why was this guy warned? He made some pretty good points. A player going hatch first AND getting a pool later than a 14 pool isn't going to be able to stop a dedicated cannon rush without taking considerable losses. The OP mentions that the hatchery will be nearing completion by the time a protoss' forge finishes but thats ONLY if they are playing eco. Even a normal 15 hatch would seem safer against cannon rushes than this because you could pull drones and not be so miserably behind in economy. Maybe he was a little harsh but he made some very good and valid points.
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Hi all,
I am going to open up a Ret's replay and count his drone count at the equivalent time:
4 minutes - 19
5 minutes - 23
6 minutes - 34
6 minutes 30 seconds - 42 - 3rd base just about to finish
replay link:
http://drop.sc/174273
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On May 28 2012 12:05 Belial88 wrote:Dude this is terrible. Your premises are completely wacked out. It's like saying "Hatch First is amazing!" but throwing it down at 6. "2 queens quickly is amazing! 6 pool and you'll have 2 queens before 14 poolers or hatch firster have 1!". You are cutting WAY too many drones doing this opening. Double extractor trick also hurts, there is absolutely no reason to do that. The only reason you want to extractor trick is to get more drones in a short period of time, when you don't plan to make any more, and don't plan to bank money (ie 6 pool aggression with no plans to expand) Seeing as how you are expanding here, you definitely need money. If you ever plan to expand, you should never extractor trick. Also, by the way, you are still vulnerable to cannon rushes doing this. I don't know why you think you aren't - if your pool is later than 10 (and pool first at that, by the way), then toss can succesfully cannon rush you unless you pull drones, in the exact same manner as if you went 15 pool or hatch first. A 14 pool goes down at 2:00. I see your 11 pool is going down at 2:14. So how in the world you think your 11 pool is good for defense, when it's down later than 14 pool? 14 pool is susceptible to cannon rushing and ramp blocking just the same as well. So you are less likely to do aggression early on or defend easier than 14 pool with this build. And just because you get 2 queens out early, doesn't necessarily equate to better economy. Otherwise everyone would just 6 pool 6 hatch. You need a certain amount of drones, before hand, to make it worthwhile. Generally, that number is around 14-16. And you saying you can make units earlier to handle 2 base all-ins shows a complete lack of understanding of the match-up... you realize such timings hit at 8:00+ right? Your opening will have very little bearing on timings made around then. 14 pool, 15 pool, 20 hatch, 16 hatch, these openings give very, very minor advantages at such timings (as in 1-4 drones worth, or maybe 100-300 minerals), but if you go double extractor trick, 11 pool, 12 hatch, you will definitely be behind a good chunk at such timings. Although again, it won't really matter, but if anything, you'll be slightly behind. You saying you only have enough for 1 queen is evidence enough of how behind this build puts you. Your pool is later than a standard 14 pool, and you only have enough money for 1 queen - you should have enough for 2 queens, or about 300 minerals, at the 3:20 mark (actually more like 400, since 14 pool puts down the pool at 2:00 and your 11 pool is 2:14). I recommend you check out the zerg openers thread, where they talk about a lot of the things you are talking about here, and you would see how sub-optimal they were anyways. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464The only benefits I see in this build is that if Toss cannon rushes you, you can use drones to hold off the initial cannons and maybe have 6 lings out in time when he gets that critical mass of money and throws down 4+ cannon/pylons that 15 drones all pulled can't deal with - but you are just hurting yourself so much by going double extractor trick and such early pools. You would be better off economically just going 14 pool 20 hatch. Sorry. There is a reason why all the pros do the openings they do. People have done their research on these things. I'm not saying they are all correct, many koreans still extractor trick every game, but you have to come up with some evidence. Simply saying "Hey guys, I go 12 hatch 11 pool and I win on ladder!" isn't enough. Not neeaarly enough, not even if you were high masters. You have to give evidence why it's good. Saying you can hold 2 base all-ins makes no sense at all since that's way after openings are relevant, or that you can put aggression on toss (toss is the one who puts aggression on you...). User was warned for this post
Well I looked into it one more time.
The pool when done correctly goes down at 2:10.
The Natural hatchery finishes at 3:25.
A protoss going forge first, completes it at 2:45.
The earliest they can place a pylon is 2:30 (25 seconds to build)
The earliest they can place down a cannon is 2:55 (cannon takes 40 seconds to build --> 3:35)
The FIRST cannon completes 10 seconds after your natural is down, and creep has hit the ground and the protoss has no more options for the rush.
The SECOND cannon can't go down until 3:10, which means if the protoss bothered, it would complete by about 4minutes.
So......I know what your saying about the fact that you can TECHNICALLY still be cannon rushed. But I'm pretty sure 1 cannon and 1 pylon is very easy to stop, especially when you have two queens on the way and the option of making zerglings just incase.
There's no way 1 or 2 cannons is going to kill a natural expansion that has those kind of units available to defend it. I'm pretty sure it can almost always be stopped easily if the protoss even bothers, not to mention he has wasted resources on it AND your natural and two queens are already up and running. This puts you way ahead.
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On May 28 2012 12:16 justindab0mb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 12:05 Belial88 wrote:Dude this is terrible. Your premises are completely wacked out. It's like saying "Hatch First is amazing!" but throwing it down at 6. "2 queens quickly is amazing! 6 pool and you'll have 2 queens before 14 poolers or hatch firster have 1!". You are cutting WAY too many drones doing this opening. Double extractor trick also hurts, there is absolutely no reason to do that. The only reason you want to extractor trick is to get more drones in a short period of time, when you don't plan to make any more, and don't plan to bank money (ie 6 pool aggression with no plans to expand) Seeing as how you are expanding here, you definitely need money. If you ever plan to expand, you should never extractor trick. Also, by the way, you are still vulnerable to cannon rushes doing this. I don't know why you think you aren't - if your pool is later than 10 (and pool first at that, by the way), then toss can succesfully cannon rush you unless you pull drones, in the exact same manner as if you went 15 pool or hatch first. A 14 pool goes down at 2:00. I see your 11 pool is going down at 2:14. So how in the world you think your 11 pool is good for defense, when it's down later than 14 pool? 14 pool is susceptible to cannon rushing and ramp blocking just the same as well. So you are less likely to do aggression early on or defend easier than 14 pool with this build. And just because you get 2 queens out early, doesn't necessarily equate to better economy. Otherwise everyone would just 6 pool 6 hatch. You need a certain amount of drones, before hand, to make it worthwhile. Generally, that number is around 14-16. And you saying you can make units earlier to handle 2 base all-ins shows a complete lack of understanding of the match-up... you realize such timings hit at 8:00+ right? Your opening will have very little bearing on timings made around then. 14 pool, 15 pool, 20 hatch, 16 hatch, these openings give very, very minor advantages at such timings (as in 1-4 drones worth, or maybe 100-300 minerals), but if you go double extractor trick, 11 pool, 12 hatch, you will definitely be behind a good chunk at such timings. Although again, it won't really matter, but if anything, you'll be slightly behind. You saying you only have enough for 1 queen is evidence enough of how behind this build puts you. Your pool is later than a standard 14 pool, and you only have enough money for 1 queen - you should have enough for 2 queens, or about 300 minerals, at the 3:20 mark (actually more like 400, since 14 pool puts down the pool at 2:00 and your 11 pool is 2:14). I recommend you check out the zerg openers thread, where they talk about a lot of the things you are talking about here, and you would see how sub-optimal they were anyways. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464The only benefits I see in this build is that if Toss cannon rushes you, you can use drones to hold off the initial cannons and maybe have 6 lings out in time when he gets that critical mass of money and throws down 4+ cannon/pylons that 15 drones all pulled can't deal with - but you are just hurting yourself so much by going double extractor trick and such early pools. You would be better off economically just going 14 pool 20 hatch. Sorry. There is a reason why all the pros do the openings they do. People have done their research on these things. I'm not saying they are all correct, many koreans still extractor trick every game, but you have to come up with some evidence. Simply saying "Hey guys, I go 12 hatch 11 pool and I win on ladder!" isn't enough. Not neeaarly enough, not even if you were high masters. You have to give evidence why it's good. Saying you can hold 2 base all-ins makes no sense at all since that's way after openings are relevant, or that you can put aggression on toss (toss is the one who puts aggression on you...). User was warned for this post Just wondering, why was this guy warned? He made some pretty good points. A player going hatch first AND getting a pool later than a 14 pool isn't going to be able to stop a dedicated cannon rush without taking considerable losses. The OP mentions that the hatchery will be nearing completion by the time a protoss' forge finishes but thats ONLY if they are playing eco. Even a normal 15 hatch would seem safer against cannon rushes than this because you could pull drones and not be so miserably behind in economy. Maybe he was a little harsh but he made some very good and valid points.
I think it is because he just listed out things he knew without reading ANY of the stuff that other people said in the replies. And he is super rude in general, not just in this thread. I really don't like him trying to be very "helpful" but only sends out only negative criticism without doing research himself. At least he should try out a normal 3 hatch build and see a difference before saying anything bad about this build.
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On May 28 2012 12:26 Keyz1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 12:05 Belial88 wrote:Dude this is terrible. Your premises are completely wacked out. It's like saying "Hatch First is amazing!" but throwing it down at 6. "2 queens quickly is amazing! 6 pool and you'll have 2 queens before 14 poolers or hatch firster have 1!". You are cutting WAY too many drones doing this opening. Double extractor trick also hurts, there is absolutely no reason to do that. The only reason you want to extractor trick is to get more drones in a short period of time, when you don't plan to make any more, and don't plan to bank money (ie 6 pool aggression with no plans to expand) Seeing as how you are expanding here, you definitely need money. If you ever plan to expand, you should never extractor trick. Also, by the way, you are still vulnerable to cannon rushes doing this. I don't know why you think you aren't - if your pool is later than 10 (and pool first at that, by the way), then toss can succesfully cannon rush you unless you pull drones, in the exact same manner as if you went 15 pool or hatch first. A 14 pool goes down at 2:00. I see your 11 pool is going down at 2:14. So how in the world you think your 11 pool is good for defense, when it's down later than 14 pool? 14 pool is susceptible to cannon rushing and ramp blocking just the same as well. So you are less likely to do aggression early on or defend easier than 14 pool with this build. And just because you get 2 queens out early, doesn't necessarily equate to better economy. Otherwise everyone would just 6 pool 6 hatch. You need a certain amount of drones, before hand, to make it worthwhile. Generally, that number is around 14-16. And you saying you can make units earlier to handle 2 base all-ins shows a complete lack of understanding of the match-up... you realize such timings hit at 8:00+ right? Your opening will have very little bearing on timings made around then. 14 pool, 15 pool, 20 hatch, 16 hatch, these openings give very, very minor advantages at such timings (as in 1-4 drones worth, or maybe 100-300 minerals), but if you go double extractor trick, 11 pool, 12 hatch, you will definitely be behind a good chunk at such timings. Although again, it won't really matter, but if anything, you'll be slightly behind. You saying you only have enough for 1 queen is evidence enough of how behind this build puts you. Your pool is later than a standard 14 pool, and you only have enough money for 1 queen - you should have enough for 2 queens, or about 300 minerals, at the 3:20 mark (actually more like 400, since 14 pool puts down the pool at 2:00 and your 11 pool is 2:14). I recommend you check out the zerg openers thread, where they talk about a lot of the things you are talking about here, and you would see how sub-optimal they were anyways. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464The only benefits I see in this build is that if Toss cannon rushes you, you can use drones to hold off the initial cannons and maybe have 6 lings out in time when he gets that critical mass of money and throws down 4+ cannon/pylons that 15 drones all pulled can't deal with - but you are just hurting yourself so much by going double extractor trick and such early pools. You would be better off economically just going 14 pool 20 hatch. Sorry. There is a reason why all the pros do the openings they do. People have done their research on these things. I'm not saying they are all correct, many koreans still extractor trick every game, but you have to come up with some evidence. Simply saying "Hey guys, I go 12 hatch 11 pool and I win on ladder!" isn't enough. Not neeaarly enough, not even if you were high masters. You have to give evidence why it's good. Saying you can hold 2 base all-ins makes no sense at all since that's way after openings are relevant, or that you can put aggression on toss (toss is the one who puts aggression on you...). User was warned for this post Well I looked into it one more time. The pool when done correctly goes down at 2:10. The Natural hatchery finishes at 3:25. A protoss going forge first, completes it at 2:45. The earliest they can place a pylon is 2:30 (25 seconds to build) The earliest they can place down a cannon is 2:55 (cannon takes 40 seconds to build --> 3:35) The FIRST cannon completes 10 seconds after your natural is down, and creep has hit the ground and the protoss has no more options for the rush. The SECOND cannon can't go down until 3:10, which means if the protoss bothered, it would complete by about 4minutes. So......I know what your saying about the fact that you can TECHNICALLY still be cannon rushed. But I'm pretty sure 1 cannon and 1 pylon is very easy to stop, especially when you have two queens on the way and the option of making zerglings just incase. There's no way 1 or 2 cannons is going to kill a natural expansion that has those kind of units available to defend it. I'm pretty sure it can almost always be stopped easily if the protoss even bothers, not to mention he has wasted resources on it AND your natural and two queens are already up and running. This puts you way ahead.
Agreed, at the same time, you can make lings on BOTH sides of the pylon wall-off and be able to clean up, which is very clever imo. I am just afraid that if the 3rd hatch timing will be delayed and how much of a delay (economically) it will be because spreading same amount of drones to 3 bases will give you more income sometimes.
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On May 28 2012 12:12 Belial88 wrote:
what's with the drone counts section? You aren't telling us how you are testing (are you making queens and gases and bulidings like you do in a normal game? what map is this? Are you taking 3 hatches?).
I mean if you are making 4 lings, 3 queens, a roach warren, 2 gas, evo chamber, lair, speed, than 50 drones at 6:30 is damn impressive. You really have 50 drones already actually out and mining at 6:30?
Please, show us the replay! That's insane. You are telling us that just by tweaking our openings a little bit, you can have about 30 more drones than DRG has at the 6:30 mark! That's insane! You're going to completely change the metagame!
It's about 6:40 to be quite honest (I'm trying to do the most perfect macro I can for my mid master's skill lvl :S).
I know a lot of pros go for specific builds and aren't concentrating on their drone count when in a game depending on how they're playing at the time. I've seen pros macro well and then other games, macro a little slower. It happens. I'm sure any pro can match the drone count in the same amount of time.
There comes a point at around 6minutes, where you minerals are skyrocketing really really high if your not spending them buildings and sctructures (even a third), I'll do my best to get a replay up.
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Whenever you sit at 3 larva for extended periods of time, you lose larva.
Any time you have any idle larva for extended periods of time, you are losing minerals, because those larva could have been drones.
By going 12 hatch 11 pool 11 overlord, you have ridiculous idle larva time in the early game which means you lose a handful of larva and a lot of money. What does it translate to?
I tested it out and hit 44 supply at 6 minutes. OK that lines up with your post.
How does this compare with the normal zvp build?
15 pool + 15 hatch plus 3rd base will also get you 44 supply at about 6 minutes.
except you have three hatcheries and 3 queens instead of two. It shoots waaaay ahead afterwards. If you do a normal pool first build but stay on 2 base, for comparison, (15 pool 15 hatch, or even 11 overpool 18 hatch) you will find yourself matching the drone count except you'll be absolutely swimming in money, which could be spent on a 3rd base, or extra queens, or gas, whereas the 12hatch 11pool build is mostly broke up until about the 6 minute mark.
and by the way, "overpool" usually refers to overlord-pool, not oversupply. 11 overpool is an extractor trick to 11, then an overlord, then a spawning pool. This means the overlord finishes about the time you throw down the pool so you can immediately start spending larva again, instead of building the pool then waiting for 100 minerals then waiting for 25 seconds without being able to spend larva.
So your build isn't really a 12 overpool. Not that it matters.
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On May 28 2012 12:26 Keyz1 wrote:
Well I looked into it one more time.
The pool when done correctly goes down at 2:10.
The Natural hatchery finishes at 3:25.
A protoss going forge first, completes it at 2:45.
The earliest they can place a pylon is 2:30 (25 seconds to build)
The earliest they can place down a cannon is 2:55 (cannon takes 40 seconds to build --> 3:35)
The FIRST cannon completes 10 seconds after your natural is down, and creep has hit the ground and the protoss has no more options for the rush.
The SECOND cannon can't go down until 3:10, which means if the protoss bothered, it would complete by about 4minutes.
So......I know what your saying about the fact that you can TECHNICALLY still be cannon rushed. But I'm pretty sure 1 cannon and 1 pylon is very easy to stop, especially when you have two queens on the way and the option of making zerglings just incase.
There's no way 1 or 2 cannons is going to kill a natural expansion that has those kind of units available to defend it. I'm pretty sure it can almost always be stopped easily if the protoss even bothers, not to mention he has wasted resources on it AND your natural and two queens are already up and running. This puts you way ahead.
1. Creep spread is not instantaneous. It will take a while to get to where it blocks cannons.
2. If your pool goes down at 2:10, and build time is 100, it will not finish until 3:50. That means you won't have lings until well past 4:00, which is WAY late for a cannon rush that could possibly hit you at 3:35. Like belial said, you will have to pull drones. Your lings will be even later if you get the double queen first
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It is a cool concept, and it might work out ok in the current metagame. The thing people are missing is that you really won't need the early lings to clear out the natural, you can basically drone rush at the start. 15p/16h is still better if you get the hatch down, but you really can't count on that. Saying cannon rush will stop this is almost the same as saying 15p/16h isn't viable, 15p goes down 10 sec earlier than this pool...
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I was warned for opening "dude this is terrible" in a response to someone who put pictures in their post.
Hi all, I am going to open up a Ret's replay and count his drone count at the equivalent time: 4 minutes - 19 5 minutes - 23 6 minutes - 34 6 minutes 30 seconds - 42 - 3rd base just about to finish replay link: http://drop.sc/174273
We don't know what the OP is doing though. Is he taking a third? Gas? And Ret is playing in a real game, his focus is on other things like scouting, reacting to the opponent, what his plans are.
The OP needs to do a standard build in YABOT, and then a mirror build in YABOT. It doesnt matter if he takes gas, a third, whatever, or not, but he needs to do the same thing in both builds.
So......I know what your saying about the fact that you can TECHNICALLY still be cannon rushed. But I'm pretty sure 1 cannon and 1 pylon is very easy to stop, especially when you have two queens on the way and the option of making zerglings just incase.
Your pool is finishing after a 14 pool does. If a 14 pool can't get lings out in time, or queens in time, then neither will your build.
You NEED to pull drones, just like in any cannon rush. Feel free to PM me on bnet, belial.869 on NA, I can show you.
And right when your pool finishes, toss will have about 4-5 cannons thrown down, that will finish before your 15 drones can take them down (thats why you can't hatch first). Now, I stated in my post that maybe you could get away with it due to your pool timing, but that isn't the problem.
The problem is that you are so behind economically than a simple 14 pool 21 hatch.
And your assumption that this denies cannon rushes is wrong. Lings will never be out in time unless you go 10 pool first or earlier (which is ridiculous, essentially). You NEED to pull drones, no matter if you do this build, or hatch first, or 14 pool. it has nothing to do when your hatch is done, it has to do with your pool timing vs his forge timing.
I think it is because he just listed out things he knew without reading ANY of the stuff that other people said in the replies. And he is super rude in general, not just in this thread. I really don't like him trying to be very "helpful" but only sends out only negative criticism without doing research himself. At least he should try out a normal 3 hatch build and see a difference before saying anything bad about this build.
I read the previous posts, and they are ridiculous. What is this, a 2nd account or something?
You are supposed to max out on roaches at 11:30, not 12:00. And what opening you do doesn't really affect something at the 12:00 mark. You can max on roaches just as easily if you go 10 pool or hatch first. Your opening has more bearing at the first 6 minutes of the game, not the 12 minute. That's like saying "here's my build order on how to get broodlords, it's super important you go 9 pool though".
For example...
I just wanted to add on, that if you mix in 1 gas geyser at 10/10 instead of extractor tricking for quick ling speed, if the protoss player decides to nexus first after scouting your quick natural, you can get to their base and potentially end the game quickly with a bunch of speedlings rallied to their natural. You'll have 11 drones for minerals and unlimited larva with the two queens for a relentless attack.
What? This makes no sense at all.
How can you possibly 'end the game' against a nexus first, when your pool is later than a standard 14 pool? And you DEFINITELY won't have speed.
I avoid responding to completely irrelevant posts like this that aren't what the OP is talking about, so I don't sound like an asshole to some lower level player who is completely wrong and doesn't know what he's talking about, but is going to obviously get angry if anyone calls him out.
If someone goes Nexus-Forge-Gateway-2nd Pylon, sure, you can get lings in. But no Toss is going to do that - If Toss goes Nexus-Forge-Cannon, he will be fine.
Trust me, I've done a TON of research into this, I just spent 2 hours yesterday testing out build orders exactly like this.
There comes a point at around 6minutes, where you minerals are skyrocketing really really high if your not spending them buildings and sctructures (even a third), I'll do my best to get a replay up.
yea i know. I'm not really sure how you are supposed to test build orders due to this. Once you are over 24 drones per mineral field, I think additional drones actually hurts your income. But a lot of builds don't realize advantages until after 6:00, which is when you will have just a ton of drones if you go purely drones.
Saying cannon rush will stop this is almost the same as saying 15p/16h isn't viable, 15p goes down 10 sec earlier than this pool...
I never said it wasn't viable. I said why bother doing this when a simple 14pool/21hatch with 4 lings clearing out a pylon (or just go 14 pool 16 hatch and pull 3 drones to deny pylon blocking) is ahead economically.
The OP also said that this build somehow deters cannon rushes. I was saying not necessarily - you need to pull drones just the same as with hatch first or 14 pool or any other build. You have to throw you pool down at about 1:00, or 10 pool, to make it so you can use only lings to deny a cannon rush - note in the pictures, his pool is later than the standard 14 pool first.
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EPT
