EPT[D] ZvP - The Bananas Build - Page 4
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kmh
Finland351 Posts
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Sapp
Poland173 Posts
First, let's think about "a drone". The value of a drone adds up every second the drone is working, so the best is to get them early. And that's not some rocket sience. I shuldn't be even writeing it here but I see some folks somehow doesn't remember that... "trivia". So let's do that. Zerg players are so in love with 15h 15-17p not without a reason. U can afford two queens when hatch finishes while constant producting drones and overlords. FUN! If U played 14p15h even one time, U know for sure that there is a moment when U just bought a first queen and a pair of lings and U can't afford an overlord yet, but u have two larvae at ur hatch already. So I don't need testing to know that if I'll go 12h11p and then overlord I will choke on that pool, then on that first queen, and then on a second one, because 11 drones can't support me on the spot. BUT I WILL TEST IT ANYWAY. <testing> It's even worse. U are choking from 1:35 mark so U are choking even before U plant a hatchery, and then U have to plant a pool and then make an overlord... god.. It's like a day without a drone. My belly would boil. And the best part is, that if U want to make that second queen as fast as U can, U have to AGAIN stop produceing drones for a while. (being blunt: Early, this build is about rushing for production to not be able to produce.) And then there is no way to plop a 3rd before 5minute mark, because U have no money for it. And when U will spend that thon of larva U overproduced from that two early queens on drones, U have no place to mine with them. And this is just from "the drone" point of view. Placeing a new hatchery is like a changing a gear in a car. If U do it too early, Ur car will choke for a while before accelerate. Now from "the lings" point of view. There is no "the lings" point of view because there is no lings to speak of. U can't afford lings when Ur pool finishes because u have no money. U have no money for a first queen btw if ur not stacking drones. This is totaly stupid. To all zergs out there, fuck off of that first pair of lings. They are IMPORTANT! and that's a fact(especialy if ur playing vs someone U don't know, like ladder) And now the worse think. Meta, and the shallow way of thinking. What am I saying? Simple. U SHULD NEVER compare your hatch timeing to timer, or food-o-meter. U shuld compare it to Ur opponent's nexus. And as such U shuld be aware that if U go 12h11p U will let your opponent place a nexus 100minerals faster than normally he would. and THEN! U have to account that U have 12 drones at this point so how exacly U want to deffend vs cannon rush? U can't attack a probe with one dron at the start because it's too much of an investment when U have just 12 of them, so U have to leave your second overlord over your natural expansion, and not send him to... oh wait! U have no second overlord to speak of, so U HAVE to waste one drone just to run after a probe. and what if he just place a pylon(just pylon), just to fool U and force U to pull more drones? how many will U pull? 3? 4? that leaves 7-8 working. Is this some kind of crazy RootCatz cheesecake? NO, it's your MACRO ORIENTED build. This looks bad, and we are not even close to talking about reall cannon rush. Let's think about it now. Your pool is later that 14p15h so lings are not an option. Creep from your second hatchery goes up early, that's true, but it's not like it will fill the whole base with creep in blink of an eye. There is a timeing to place a pylon and a cannon. If your opponent is not going for a nexus, he may place more of them and u are screw. And even if U are not, to fight that U have to pull 7-8 drones total, 1-2 to run after a probe and 6 to attack two cannons 3 for a cannon. And U never know how many of them can he put down so... So.. You will have to deffend in (as i call it) the second stage of a cannon rush, when cannons are completed and shooting. U will have to stop producing drones, AGAIN, go for fast queens and spine. that leaves U with how many drones? ten? oh man, there are so many things that can go wrong.. just don't... And now the best part. This opening is totaly susceptible to 2gate proxy. U have no way of scouting it coz U can't dronescout EVER and you have no second overlord early. Gosh, even if U maphacked and know exacly what are U up against u can't support ling production coz U have no money yet. because U have 12 drones on one base. so it don't matter that u have two bases. But "I GET IT", OP is just anoyed by that pylonblocking thing, every zerg is. The way of dealling with it is to simply play from alittle bechind, or take the risk of expanding to a 3rd. Not breaking the whole two years of meta. If U run in a marathon, and U slip in the first 100m and fall, the way of dealing with it is to try harder from now on, not run in the other direction. User was warned for crimes against the English language | ||
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Kasu
United Kingdom345 Posts
On May 29 2012 00:32 lhr0909 wrote: The OP already said that the build is safer against a pylon block at the bottom ramp. And he clarified that this build is more of a 2 base build because the third base is significantly later than 14p16h Right, and several other posters said that it isn't safer against pylon blocks because the pool is even later than standard 14pool, except they actually tested it. This is why you should think about what is being said rather than blindly accept it. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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flaxxen
Sweden33 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On May 28 2012 20:16 Decendos wrote: well...the pool with this build finishes some seconds after 14 pool. you have to pull drones in both ways but here you have the advantage of having creep, 2 queens + a spine if needed. There is no way he can afford 2 queens and spine and pull drones. He has like 10 drones. How many should he pull? If he pulls drones, he's not mining minerals. If he pulls 8 drones, which probably won't stop a cannon rush. He'll have 2-6 drones mining depending on the timing. At the same time protoss will have 17 probes mining. On May 29 2012 03:22 flaxxen wrote: Everything is better with a 13 pool 19 hatch (if blocked it will be down at 21). Your build just stacks loads and loads of lavae. You should 13 pool 15 hatch unless it gets blocked. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
Hey oboeman what did you use to test the builds? How were you able to get the benchmarks for all those times so easily I just played them each and looked at the replay, and I didn't screw up. It's not very rigorous because I only did each build once. I didn't branch off into the real build, I only made drones and just compared the mineral count (which shows how far you could have gone if you did branch off) I put the 11 overpool in there because he cannot delay your natural with a pylon. 15p is still better for a 3 base build, because it starts floating minerals sooner, so you can actually afford a 3rd hatch at ~4:15. 11overpool catches up thanks to its larva, but can't afford the 3rd quite as early. His 12 hatch build is clearly worse than both. None of these builds are safe from the ramp block. You'll have to interrupt it with drones no matter when your pool is. | ||
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lhr0909
United States562 Posts
On May 29 2012 00:51 Kasu wrote: Right, and several other posters said that it isn't safer against pylon blocks because the pool is even later than standard 14pool, except they actually tested it. This is why you should think about what is being said rather than blindly accept it. Not sure how you can be "safe" if you are completely walled in by pylons, cannons and gateways on 1 base whereas you are able to make units/ drones from both sides of the wall and be able to take it down in time. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On May 29 2012 07:26 lhr0909 wrote: Not sure how you can be "safe" if you are completely walled in by pylons, cannons and gateways on 1 base whereas you are able to make units/ drones from both sides of the wall and be able to take it down in time. you have a hatchery on the other side but you have no income and are massively supply blocked so the cannons will finish and kill your expansion anyway. | ||
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Resist
14 Posts
Why is it bad? Because there is simply no way this build survives a half-competent Cannon Rush. Drones must be pulled, but since so few Drones are available it's autolose for this build. EDIT: I would so like to be proven wrong though... played it 2 ladder games in a row and the Protosses didn't even blink before Pylon+Cannoning it to death. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Not sure how you can be "safe" if you are completely walled in by pylons, cannons and gateways on 1 base whereas you are able to make units/ drones from both sides of the wall and be able to take it down in time. Can you please link your sc2ranks profile? Your comments just show an absurd understanding of the game. What are you going to make? Are you not understanding anything anyone is posting in here? The OP's pool timing is LATER than a standard 15 pool first build, and his hatch pops late as well. The cannon will already be finished when the hatch pops. So you will have 1 cannon already up (not to mention if Toss decides to dedicate more and has 5 more halfway done at this time), and you can only morph drones. Toss will surely put down a 2nd cannon when he sees you keep your hatch. So you can morph 1 drone when 1 cannon, if not 2, if not 5, are already done. Eventually, you might be able to make 2 lings! Against a single cannon already finished! Even if you want to refuse to believe any of this, you could at least accept that this build will put you behind against a cannon rush. Feel free to msg me on b.net, or you know, actually test this. The amount of stuff you say that is just outright wrong is amazing. You clearly have not tested this build, but myself and Oboeman have already put more testing into this build than you or the OP has. And that's what is so damn insulting. We've done the testing on this build, and everyone else high level in the world has tested for themselves things like 12 hatches and 11 pools (Fruitdealer used to do a build very similar to this in the first season of GSL. Look it up, in his games on steppes of war, ZvP, vs hongun). But no, apparently you know better, even though there are very clear problems with this build that you refuse to accept. I really can't believe you said what you said. You think morphing drones on both sides of 2 cannons being up is going to do anything, or even morphing 6 lings? Not to mention you are way behind a Toss who's been mining with 17+ probes this entire time. User was warned for tone of this post and previous posts | ||
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Keyz1
Canada94 Posts
Have fun. | ||
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Entirety
1423 Posts
I tried this build out and I don't think it's entirely terrible. The third base is problematic - that's why I tried 2 base builds with it such as 2 base muta, 2 base roach-hydra all-in, 2 base nydus, etc. While I won't be using this build normally, I think it is worth looking into further. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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snexwang
Australia224 Posts
User was warned for crimes against the English language This made me smile. | ||
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Glurkenspurk
United States1915 Posts
On May 29 2012 11:37 Entirety wrote: Holy crap, Belial88, the arrogance and antagonism exuding from your post is incredible. I tried this build out and I don't think it's entirely terrible. The third base is problematic - that's why I tried 2 base builds with it such as 2 base muta, 2 base roach-hydra all-in, 2 base nydus, etc. While I won't be using this build normally, I think it is worth looking into further. How did you manage to ignore all the actual math involved in proving that this build is bad and will both auto lose to cannons, AND have less resources than a standard opening? I do not understand why people use anecdotal evidence over logical facts to point out how an objectively worse build is good. | ||
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
Rushing to 12 hatch will likely not pay off any more in larva count than rushing to a queen off an 11 pool. So cons without benefits make 11 pool my preferred build. Now I am considering going back to 11 pool. Maybe modifying it to 12 pool. | ||
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lhr0909
United States562 Posts
On May 29 2012 07:35 Oboeman wrote: you have a hatchery on the other side but you have no income and are massively supply blocked so the cannons will finish and kill your expansion anyway. OK, so I just played this protoss, and I totally held the pylon block with the larva at the natural. and it is on KR server. I am not going to have a huge boner towards this build and going to use it every single ZvP, but this build definitely has its potential because every non standard build can get a good surprise effect, especially for the pool timing too, the protoss has to be in panic mode after his failed cannon rush because he put that much money into cannons and suddenly he did not even have a wall up in time and the lings i made to kill the wall-in suddenly become so useful that i could probably get an easy win. http://drop.sc/188317 | ||
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lhr0909
United States562 Posts
On May 29 2012 10:56 Belial88 wrote: zerglingrodeo and kasu, thanks. You are spot on. Can you please link your sc2ranks profile? Your comments just show an absurd understanding of the game. What are you going to make? Are you not understanding anything anyone is posting in here? The OP's pool timing is LATER than a standard 15 pool first build, and his hatch pops late as well. The cannon will already be finished when the hatch pops. So you will have 1 cannon already up (not to mention if Toss decides to dedicate more and has 5 more halfway done at this time), and you can only morph drones. Toss will surely put down a 2nd cannon when he sees you keep your hatch. So you can morph 1 drone when 1 cannon, if not 2, if not 5, are already done. Eventually, you might be able to make 2 lings! Against a single cannon already finished! Even if you want to refuse to believe any of this, you could at least accept that this build will put you behind against a cannon rush. Feel free to msg me on b.net, or you know, actually test this. The amount of stuff you say that is just outright wrong is amazing. You clearly have not tested this build, but myself and Oboeman have already put more testing into this build than you or the OP has. And that's what is so damn insulting. We've done the testing on this build, and everyone else high level in the world has tested for themselves things like 12 hatches and 11 pools (Fruitdealer used to do a build very similar to this in the first season of GSL. Look it up, in his games on steppes of war, ZvP, vs hongun). But no, apparently you know better, even though there are very clear problems with this build that you refuse to accept. I really can't believe you said what you said. You think morphing drones on both sides of 2 cannons being up is going to do anything, or even morphing 6 lings? Not to mention you are way behind a Toss who's been mining with 17+ probes this entire time. User was warned for tone of this post and previous posts Hi Belial88, If you care to take the time to watch the replay, this is how I do it: http://drop.sc/188317 Oh and here is the thing: unless I am facing a player on ladder who is going for 7 pylon 8 forge and put down the wall-in and cannons, i mean, who still preemptively makes cannons these days? I think even for a 14 forge, the creep will expand so they cannot put down the cannons in the correct spot on time. Maybe you should really try this build and be surprised how many people around the world actually will fall for this (except the protoss players who read this thread for sure lol) I am thinking this is more like a build to force your opponent to cannon wall you.  Oh and more: I don't really care what you said about the build is bad because you never tested it yourself and just pour out subjective comments anyways, so you might want to actually give me some replays and saying how this build is bad. And more: I won't have a huge boner towards this build, I just think this build would make playing zerg fun because I believe everybody is already sick of playing the same opening over and over again. Think about how many different openings terrans and protoss can do. Sometimes I just feel so sad that zerg has to open the same build over and over again  This build definitely has its potential not just on ladder, maybe even in a bo3, bo5 settings, because you are trying to force your opponent to react to what you do, even though the best reaction is to not do anything | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
That replay is a prime example of why this thread should be locked. 12 hatch does not even go down before a typical protoss scout timing on most maps. It's sole purpose is to beat pylon block, and it can't actually secure that. 11pool 18hatch or 12pool 19hatch both deny hatch block completely and are safe against any protoss cheese, as well as are economically competitive with hatch first openers. OP is a low diamond player and you are a low platinum player. You guys are arguing with several mid-master players on this board. The opener itself provides no tangible benefit over many other commonly used builds. It sets you behind in every category except I suppose natural creep spread. Perhaps other posters could have been nicer about saying what a bad opener this is, but really this thread should have been locked when it was posted because it has no replay, had no tag, and has no analysis whatsoever on its merits. Many people have looked into 12 hatch and people there have been millions and millions of games played in two years. You are not going to find a build that is better than what players much better than you are currently doing. If you want to do a less standard opener and avoid hatch block, 12pool 19hatch is superior in every conceivable way to this opener, and has the advantage of being a build a few pros have successfully used in competitive play. You can watch the video here: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors4/vod/65792 That will accomplish everything you both are trying to accomplish with 12hatch. I don't think there is any merit to ever going 12 hatch in any situation because there are no advantages it provides specifically over other builds, but perhaps in the future with new map pools/metagame/situations there will be a reason for 12 hatch. It doesn't provide a larva or economic or safety advantage over any common opener. If you want to be empirical about it, try to set a goal of X units/supply/workers using a common opener, then try to match or beat it with 12hatch opener. If you can do that, you will have a compelling reason to use this build. As it stands, there is no value in doing it, and that's what many posters are trying to help you understand. You are certainly free to 6hatch 5pool if you want, but please don't post things like this in the strategy forum unless they contribute in some way to the general knowledge pool. | ||
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