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On May 28 2012 12:05 Belial88 wrote:
The only reason you want to extractor trick is to get more drones in a short period of time, when you don't plan to make any more, and don't plan to bank money (ie 6 pool aggression with no plans to expand)
Seeing as how you are expanding here, you definitely need money. If you ever plan to expand, you should never extractor trick.
Untrue. Extractor trick is often worse, but it has nothing to do with expanding, but rather the time/supply of your spawning pool. For example, if you go 11 overpool, you should extractor trick, and that has nothing to do with whether or not you plan to expand.
A 14 pool goes down at 2:00.
Untrue, 15 pool can go down before 2:00.
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Well, we can argue all day haha........
Anyway........the concept is there for you to use if you want. As for myself, I've noticed that if you are being cannon rushed, you can get 1 Queen,8 zerglings and start building a spine crawler by the time the protoss has a maximum of 2 cannons out.
I'm pretty sure, especially with creep helping along the way, you can defend it eventually and keep your natural expo no problem without pulling drones.
Pulling 1 drone to keep an eye on the probe at your natural while it's building isn't the end of the world either if your that paranoid about it.
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Hi OP,
I just tried in a custom game on daybreak. I am not going to lie, I really like the opening! At least i can get a lot of silly wins because my opponent will be freaking out.
However, I am not able to achieve the same amount of drones as you do in the game. Here is what I did:
1. I did not overlord at 18 (did it at 20 because i am trying to simulate a situation where you want to get 4 lings faster, so at 18/20 supply i made 2 sets of lings before making an overlord
2. I put down my 3rd hatch at 28 supply. I had 10 larvae then (5:30 mark), but I really would love to have a relatively fast 3rd still, so I chose not to use the larvae. I guess I can tweak it later
3. I put down 3 gases at about 6:45, and at the same time, I put down my roach warren (similar to a DRG opening instead of the Stephano 6 min 2 gas opening). By 6:40, I am only 2-3 drones behind compared to Ret's normal ZvP drone count, which in my opinion is pretty good.
4. At the end I tried to max out on roaches and lings as fast as possible. I managed to get maxed at 12:15 mark, which is pretty much similar to the 12 min max out build.
For my mechanics level, I think I still have a lot of room to get a bit higher count than this, but that's about what I tested out so far. Hope OP can post his 3rd timing, as well as the gas timings so we can compare notes.
Thanks and gl hf.
Link for my trial:
http://drop.sc/187373
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Brunei Darussalam566 Posts
On May 28 2012 13:08 Belial88 wrote:I was warned for opening "dude this is terrible" in a response to someone who put pictures in their post. Show nested quote +Hi all, I am going to open up a Ret's replay and count his drone count at the equivalent time: 4 minutes - 19 5 minutes - 23 6 minutes - 34 6 minutes 30 seconds - 42 - 3rd base just about to finish replay link: http://drop.sc/174273 We don't know what the OP is doing though. Is he taking a third? Gas? And Ret is playing in a real game, his focus is on other things like scouting, reacting to the opponent, what his plans are. The OP needs to do a standard build in YABOT, and then a mirror build in YABOT. It doesnt matter if he takes gas, a third, whatever, or not, but he needs to do the same thing in both builds. Show nested quote +So......I know what your saying about the fact that you can TECHNICALLY still be cannon rushed. But I'm pretty sure 1 cannon and 1 pylon is very easy to stop, especially when you have two queens on the way and the option of making zerglings just incase. Your pool is finishing after a 14 pool does. If a 14 pool can't get lings out in time, or queens in time, then neither will your build. You NEED to pull drones, just like in any cannon rush. Feel free to PM me on bnet, belial.869 on NA, I can show you. And right when your pool finishes, toss will have about 4-5 cannons thrown down, that will finish before your 15 drones can take them down (thats why you can't hatch first). Now, I stated in my post that maybe you could get away with it due to your pool timing, but that isn't the problem. The problem is that you are so behind economically than a simple 14 pool 21 hatch. And your assumption that this denies cannon rushes is wrong. Lings will never be out in time unless you go 10 pool first or earlier (which is ridiculous, essentially). You NEED to pull drones, no matter if you do this build, or hatch first, or 14 pool. it has nothing to do when your hatch is done, it has to do with your pool timing vs his forge timing. Show nested quote +I think it is because he just listed out things he knew without reading ANY of the stuff that other people said in the replies. And he is super rude in general, not just in this thread. I really don't like him trying to be very "helpful" but only sends out only negative criticism without doing research himself. At least he should try out a normal 3 hatch build and see a difference before saying anything bad about this build. I read the previous posts, and they are ridiculous. What is this, a 2nd account or something? You are supposed to max out on roaches at 11:30, not 12:00. And what opening you do doesn't really affect something at the 12:00 mark. You can max on roaches just as easily if you go 10 pool or hatch first. Your opening has more bearing at the first 6 minutes of the game, not the 12 minute. That's like saying "here's my build order on how to get broodlords, it's super important you go 9 pool though". For example... Show nested quote +I just wanted to add on, that if you mix in 1 gas geyser at 10/10 instead of extractor tricking for quick ling speed, if the protoss player decides to nexus first after scouting your quick natural, you can get to their base and potentially end the game quickly with a bunch of speedlings rallied to their natural. You'll have 11 drones for minerals and unlimited larva with the two queens for a relentless attack. What? This makes no sense at all. How can you possibly 'end the game' against a nexus first, when your pool is later than a standard 14 pool? And you DEFINITELY won't have speed. I avoid responding to completely irrelevant posts like this that aren't what the OP is talking about, so I don't sound like an asshole to some lower level player who is completely wrong and doesn't know what he's talking about, but is going to obviously get angry if anyone calls him out. If someone goes Nexus-Forge-Gateway-2nd Pylon, sure, you can get lings in. But no Toss is going to do that - If Toss goes Nexus-Forge-Cannon, he will be fine. Trust me, I've done a TON of research into this, I just spent 2 hours yesterday testing out build orders exactly like this. Show nested quote +There comes a point at around 6minutes, where you minerals are skyrocketing really really high if your not spending them buildings and sctructures (even a third), I'll do my best to get a replay up. yea i know. I'm not really sure how you are supposed to test build orders due to this. Once you are over 24 drones per mineral field, I think additional drones actually hurts your income. But a lot of builds don't realize advantages until after 6:00, which is when you will have just a ton of drones if you go purely drones. Show nested quote + Saying cannon rush will stop this is almost the same as saying 15p/16h isn't viable, 15p goes down 10 sec earlier than this pool... I never said it wasn't viable. I said why bother doing this when a simple 14pool/21hatch with 4 lings clearing out a pylon (or just go 14 pool 16 hatch and pull 3 drones to deny pylon blocking) is ahead economically. The OP also said that this build somehow deters cannon rushes. I was saying not necessarily - you need to pull drones just the same as with hatch first or 14 pool or any other build. You have to throw you pool down at about 1:00, or 10 pool, to make it so you can use only lings to deny a cannon rush - note in the pictures, his pool is later than the standard 14 pool first.
Wow bro, really appreciate your input, but what's with the bad attitude?
Even if you completely disagree with OP on his build and whatnot, your agressive tone is completely uncalled for.
my 2 cents
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On May 28 2012 13:23 lhr0909 wrote:Hi OP, I just tried in a custom game on daybreak. I am not going to lie, I really like the opening! At least i can get a lot of silly wins because my opponent will be freaking out. However, I am not able to achieve the same amount of drones as you do in the game. Here is what I did: 1. I did not overlord at 18 (did it at 20 because i am trying to simulate a situation where you want to get 4 lings faster, so at 18/20 supply i made 2 sets of lings before making an overlord 2. I put down my 3rd hatch at 28 supply. I had 10 larvae then (5:30 mark), but I really would love to have a relatively fast 3rd still, so I chose not to use the larvae. I guess I can tweak it later 3. I put down 3 gases at about 6:45, and at the same time, I put down my roach warren (similar to a DRG opening instead of the Stephano 6 min 2 gas opening). By 6:40, I am only 2-3 drones behind compared to Ret's normal ZvP drone count, which in my opinion is pretty good. 4. At the end I tried to max out on roaches and lings as fast as possible. I managed to get maxed at 12:15 mark, which is pretty much similar to the 12 min max out build. For my mechanics level, I think I still have a lot of room to get a bit higher count than this, but that's about what I tested out so far. Hope OP can post his 3rd timing, as well as the gas timings so we can compare notes. Thanks and gl hf. Link for my trial: http://drop.sc/187373
Thanks man. I'm also trying to figure out a set timing for the third base. I usually take it based on how aggressive the protoss is looking (2 gas or 4 gas). My personal preference is about just under 6 minutes, grab a third, or even a fourth. If you want to take an earlier third, you'll probably be racking up larvae and then spending your money on all of them at once with one bring round of drones (10~). You'll have to tweak it.
I take my gases gradually 1 at a time, It depends what your going. At other times, I'll take them at all at once with more of an ice fisher style. Sometimes I'll go roach, sometimes ling infestor. Sometimes Roach/Hydra/Ling, sometimes Queens/Roach/ling.
It's purely more of an opener for 2 base. The rest is up to you imo.
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Untrue. Extractor trick is often worse, but it has nothing to do with expanding, but rather the time/supply of your spawning pool. For example, if you go 11 overpool, you should extractor trick, and that has nothing to do with whether or not you plan to expand.
Sort of. If you want to plant your pool at 10-12, you want to extractor trick to get more drones. If you want to put your pool afterwards, you should not extractor trick because it ends up costing you money (~5-7 minerals per extractor trick in total). The reason you want to put down your pool after 12 is because you want to bank money, generally for an expansion (although you could do it for a quick roach warren too, but if you are making a roach warren that early, you may make the argument that you want to do a 'suboptimal' pool earlier than 13 because of timings). If you are putting down the pool at 12 or earlier, the key concern is not money (for a future expansion), but rather larva.
An 11 pool perfectly matches the money you have, the increased larva you have over 13+ pool. If you go 13+ pool, you have slightly less larva (i think due to queen), and you'll have more money than you can spend on larva, which is a good thing if you are doing something like putting down an expansion.
Untrue, 15 pool can go down before 2:00.
It depends on how you drone pair, and on the map/mineral field and the number of closer patches. A map like Daybreak allows you to have quicker timings because the number of closer mineral patches, but a map/mineral field like Ohana will cause a delay.
But it seems to me the a 14 pool generally goes down at 2:00+ with good drone pairing. I usually see 14-15 pools go down at like 2:05, 2:10, I'd be a bit surprised if you could get a 15 pool earlier than 2:00. Maybe 1:55 with close mineral patches and good pairing.
Well, we can argue all day haha........
Anyway........the concept is there for you to use if you want. As for myself, I've noticed that if you are being cannon rushed, you can get 1 Queen,8 zerglings and start building a spine crawler by the time the protoss has a maximum of 2 cannons out.
I'm pretty sure, especially with creep helping along the way, you can defend it eventually and keep your natural expo no problem without pulling drones.
Pulling 1 drone to keep an eye on the probe at your natural while it's building isn't the end of the world either if your that paranoid about it.
Well you should send your 1st overlord made (9-12, whenever your making it) to the natural to spot for cannon/pylon shenanigans. You can't just make lings to deal with a cannon rush, the problem is that you are starting lings, and due to larva (remember, no inject will be ready), you might have 2-6 lings, 6 if you really pool larva (which you really would not be doing), but they are started when the cannon is already started. Can you kill the cannon that's already half done with lings that still have to walk all the way from your hatch to the cannon? And what about cannons placed in places that you cannot reach? There is no way 6 lings will kill a half done cannon that's placed behind the natural mineral patches on shakuras.
You have to pull drones to stop the initial cannon rush. You make lings to deal with it when Toss puts down like 4+ cannons when he has a ton of money banked that they usually use to put down that nexus, which 15 drones simply cannot deal with. Which is why hatch first is considered an autoloss against a strong cannon rusher.
Your build, considering the pool timing, might be able to get lings out in time to deal with that critical mass timing, but I question if the trade-off is worth it considering how much you are losing in drones with such an early pool, hatch, and extractor tricking, over a simple 14 pool, 4 lings, kill the pylon, 21 hatch build.
The creep alone definitely won't stop the cannon rush (it wont reach behind the mineral patches that quickly), and you definitely can't rely on only lings to deal with it. You have to pull drones.
msg me on bnet belial.869 and we can test things out.
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On May 28 2012 13:37 Belial88 wrote:
Your build, considering the pool timing, might be able to get lings out in time to deal with that critical mass timing, but I question if the trade-off is worth it considering how much you are losing in drones with such an early pool, hatch, and extractor tricking, over a simple 14 pool, 4 lings, kill the pylon, 21 hatch build.
The creep alone definitely won't stop the cannon rush (it wont reach behind the mineral patches that quickly), and you definitely can't rely on only lings to deal with it. You have to pull drones.
msg me on bnet belial.869 and we can test things out.
Well,................the trade-off does seem worth it though. I'm still hitting 40 drones by 6 minutes. I'm not behind in any way once you get past 5minutes or so. That's when your really start to feel it kick in. Which is usually when I decide to take a slightly later third as well. I make all my units while my third is building, because the droning is complete. Just a preference.
I used to do the whole 3rd fast hatch all the time against Forge FFE's. It's still possible, just about a minute or so late though. You make up for it with the extra injects (more larvae waiting to be turned into drones), so your just using it slightly later on I believe.
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On May 28 2012 13:08 Belial88 wrote:
I never said it wasn't viable. I said why bother doing this when a simple 14pool/21hatch with 4 lings clearing out a pylon (or just go 14 pool 16 hatch and pull 3 drones to deny pylon blocking) is ahead economically.
The OP also said that this build somehow deters cannon rushes. I was saying not necessarily - you need to pull drones just the same as with hatch first or 14 pool or any other build. You have to throw you pool down at about 1:00, or 10 pool, to make it so you can use only lings to deny a cannon rush - note in the pictures, his pool is later than the standard 14 pool first.
From my testing (without optimal third base timing) this build was way ahead of 14p/21h, if you delay the lings (you should be able too since you already have the natural), i went stephano style and maxed about 11.15 with this build compared to 10.55 with 15p/16h and 11.40 with 14p/21h.
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^ What testing are you doing? It's not exactly 'stephano style' if you aren't taking a third. Are you maxing off 2 base at 11:15? Are you getting lair, speed before or after lair? Evo chamber?
Can everyone please like... be very, very descriptive about what exactly their tests in a vacuum are? There's no perspective in this thread.
Anyways... So to oblige the OP, I did some testing on my own. I used [Official]YABOT (yet another build order tester) Metalopolis by Xor.
It's a little frustrating to use, quite frankly - although it shows you your supply and money you hit for every 'benchmark' (queens made and cancelled, overlords, any building made or cancelled), and the time, you can't exactly compare builds unless in both builds, you do something at the exact same time. So to compare builds, you either just have to be lucky in that you both did something at 6:00 and 7:00, or do something. Fortunately, I figured out just make, then cancel, a queen, and you can compare at times.
In the tests I did, I PURELY droned up, and in the beginning, I drone paired in the exact same sequence (and would redo it if the pairs unpaired - this was hard as I was actually tripling up workers on certain mineral patches, which can be quite difficult to do). Because I did not making anything but 2 queens, overlords, and drones, and all overlords popped at perfect times (ive learned that, i did tests on that a while ago), I had plenty of spare minerals to do the queen make/cancel to benchmark the builds.
So at first, it was immediately apparent that hey, this build is really attractive - you can get a hatch right away, whereas with 14/4 lings -> 21 hatch, your hatch pops at like 30+, it's kind of late.
But there's no comparison. This is what I got:
14 pool, drone to 16, 4 lings + queen (make 2nd queen immediately after 1st) drone to 22 (all 4 lings must be on ground for a few seconds before making hatch), then make hatch
vs
Your opener (btw your overlord timings are terrible... i did better overlord timings, but did all your 12 hatch, 11 pool, extractor trick, overlord, drone to 14, stuff)
At 5:15:
14pool/4lings/22hatch - 29 supply (25 drones), 735 minerals
12hatch/11pool - 36 (32 drones) supply, 222 minerals.
There is a difference of 7 drones (350 minerals worth of drones), yes. But the mineral difference between these 2 builds is still 513 at the 5:15 mark. That's a huge difference.
Also, I made 4 lings with the 14 pool build, but not yours. The standard in ZvP is to make 4 lings (some make 2, some make 6) - this is because if you only make 2 lings, a pylon block at your third will delay it just by forever. You need 4 lings in ZvP to get rid of pylon blocks at the third. You need at least 2 to scout his front if he goes gateway opener, to see his sentry count or whatever. I didn't do that with your build, so really, you should be more like at 30 drones, vs 25 drones, or 300 minerals rather than 350 minerals ahead, or more like a mineral difference of 613.
Maybe we can do different testing, or do a test that goes further in time. But just this test here, comparing the 2 builds at the 5:15 mark, shows that your build is ahead by 5 drones and is WAY behind in resources. So taking a third is obviously going to be delayed (as you commented, saying your thirds were always really late).
Mind sharing a rep of yours, or telling us, what your supply generally is at the 8:00 mark when going fast third?
If you are going 2 base, maybe this build might be useful, but you have to consider that you still need to spend resources when going 2 base - for roaches, gas, lair, whatever, that still may be sub-optimal.
I don't mean to be mean here, but I did some pretty straight-forward empirical evidence here. I mean, your thread here is essentially saying "All pro games are idiots, I know a way better build than them, because they are stupid and don't practice! But I have!" Sorry - I can guarantee they have all spent countless hours and hours and days seeing what the best builds are, so you need evidence to back up what you say. It's neat you say drone counts may be higher here or there, but that leaves out a huge part of the story - that you just have zero resources with this build compared to standard openers.
And like I said - by 11:00, it really doesnt matter what opener you used.
And by the way, I tested 14 hatch vs 15 hatch. I'll shut up now - Putting an End to the Zerg Openers Debate said 14hatch/15 pool was the best, but I guess they didn't test 15/15. 15 hatch comes out a little ahead at 7:00 by about 50 minerals.
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Just went and beta tested this build on ladder. Gonna make it my go to build for ZvP
~diamond forever
In all seriousness, this build feels smooth and safe, at least versus my terrible diamond opponents. 
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A slightly more recent zerg openers economic thread (still very old):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174374
It has some interesting stuff, but I think it's still mostly irrelevant. Your goal isn't to maximize minerals/larvae necessarily, or even to maximize the minerals/larvae you can reliably get up - your goal is to maximize your advantage over your opponent. This is why 11/18 overpool is so nice - since you have much more ability to do things like punish nexus first and trivialize cannon rushes, it can end up giving you a bigger economic advantage than hatch first builds even if it isn't strictly as economically strong.
I'm gonna go try to come up with an even more aggressive version (that has a pair of lings or two in time to help place the hatchery, and potentially goes for early gas), on the hypothesis that it might be more useful to restrict my opponent's options than to maximize my own efficiency. We'll see if anything jumps out at me.
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You are using the expression  overpool wrong. An Over-pool is when you build an Overlord and then the pool without building drones in between, probably using the extractor trick before the overlord. You are just using a double extractor trick.
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theres no point getting 2 hatch if you dont have the drones for it.
User was warned for this post
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No point sneaking in gas, it looks like - you just can't get your queen and hatchery in any kind of reasonable time. It is, however, possible to get an overlord at 15 (just before your queen). This solves two (potential) problems - it gives you a pair of lings right when you'd want them to help clear your nat for a hatchery, and it means you're not supply blocked if for some reason you can't place it anyway (pylon/cannon stuff, for example). Might be a little two-stones-for-one-bird-ish, but it has the nice side effect of letting you maximize your early queen production.
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I invented a build similar like this very long ago, it's slightly different though: Instead of Getting 12 Hatch then Pool and then Extractor Trick, I instead get Hatch, then Pool then DE for 1 more Drones (I still drone scout)
I however use this build in respond against GateWay expand, I don't have to take fast Third in case they went for some kind of all-in or hard pressure, I also can take gas sightly faster which I can get speed then Lair (I sometime can even get speed before 4gates). Base on situation I get Third while tech to Muta.
Since I don't get Roach at all, I most of the time have enough money to take 3rd if I feel safe. Slightly later, but can fully fill 2 bases right before the 3rd finish - which is idea for me.
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Well,................the trade-off does seem worth it though. I'm still hitting 40 drones by 6 minutes. I'm not behind in any way once you get past 5minutes or so. That's when your really start to feel it kick in. Which is usually when I decide to take a slightly later third as well. I make all my units while my third is building, because the droning is complete. Just a preference.
You can have 40 drones at 6 minutes.
Or you can have 40 drones and 600 minerals worth of whatever else you want at 6 minutes.
Getting the hatch and second queen slightly earlier gives you a few larva which almost compensates for all of the larva you lost by sitting on 3 idle larva while building a hatchery then a pool then an overlord. But it doesn't make up for the minerals lost by not being able to make drones from those missing larva.
Is that really a matter of preference?
Here are my tests for 3 opening builds to compare to yours. I made only drones/queens. No 3rd hatch, no gas. Stopped at 6 minutes.
Your build (12 hatch 11 pool)
http://drop.sc/187423
3:18 - pool complete
3:30 - hatch complete
4:08 - first queen complete
4:35 - second queen complete
6:00 - 44 supply 222 minerals
Normal (15 pool 16 hatch)
http://drop.sc/187424
3:15 - pool complete (interesting eh!)
4:05 - first queen complete
4:29 - hatch complete
5:00 - second queen complete
6:00 - 44 supply 570 minerals
Other normal (11 overpool 19 hatch - pylon block proof)
http://drop.sc/187425
2:43 - pool complete
3:33 - 1st queen complete
4:40 - 2nd queen complete
5:00 - hatch complete
6:00 - 48 supply 370 minerals (this build's larva are a little bit ahead)
So those minerals can be converted into anything else, maybe a fast 3rd, maybe queens, maybe earlier gas.
So uh, can you remind us what the strength of your build is and why it could be better than the other two I tested?
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This is why 11/18 overpool is so nice - since you have much more ability to do things like punish nexus first and trivialize cannon rushes, it can end up giving you a bigger economic advantage than hatch first builds even if it isn't strictly as economically strong.
11 overpool does nothing to stop cannon rushes or ramp blocks. If you let toss get the ramp block, 15 pool, hatch first, or 11 overpool, your autolose. And if you don't pull drones and react like you would with any other build, 11 overpool loses.
I mean, you could have actually tested this before saying something you clearly didnt' test out, and be wrong on, and end up being called out, or you could have read my zvp guide, or the millions of times I've said, or any replays out there that show it. But 11 overpool does not get lings out in time for a cannon rush. You need to pull drones just the same.
I went 11 overpool for half a year because of this. Then one day, the first time ever in a half a year, someone ramp blocked me, and I lost. The ling did not even break the pylon before the cannon came up, and I could only get 6 lings out when pooling my larva anyways.
You can't rely on lings, because if you drone normally, you should be only able to make 2-4 lings. 2-4 lings does not beat a cannon, even when it's at half health.
And no, 11 overpool does not give you an economic advantage than hatch first, or 14 pool. Read that thread correctly again, he clearly shows that 11 overpool is way behind in economy. it's only ahead if you plan to 1 base.
And you won't come out ahead against nexus first either. You need to kill a good 4+ probes to make 11 overpool worth it, and against a decent toss, 6 lings shot by cannons becomes 4 hurt lings, and they won't kill many, if any probes, against a decent toss. Don't forget how ahead that toss is already by going nexus first, so in reality you need to kill at least 6 probes to make it worthwhile.
Hey oboeman what did you use to test the builds? How were you able to get the benchmarks for all those times so easily?
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Over hatch? I thought the term "overpool" referred to building an OL before pool, not the extractor trick...
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^ Overpool means you are making an extractor trick, then overlord (then pool). This is because what people generally mean by extractor trick, is that you make an overlord, then extractor trick.
What he means by overhatch, is his own invention, of going double extractor trick, then hatch, although no overlord in it, so it's not really an overhatch if it's not an extractor trick ->building->overlord :X
Over in the word meaning overlord finishing at the same time as pool.
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I am always a bit surprised by reactions : why do some people absolutely want to shut down any unorthodox or even false idea? I am not saying here that the idea is good. I want to suggest that, before deciding whether some statement is true or not, maybe we should first appreciate its content in a friendly manner. Instead of destroying directly the idea, as if we were defending against an enemy.
This does not prevent us from criticizing it, it's rather a state of mind that takes into account that even something false may still provide us with some valuable information. Be it negative information on what we should not do. I personnally had never considered 12 hatch 11 pool, I didn't know how many drones I could have at the 6 minut mark with that, and now I have some information to make up my mind. This makes us more competent, which we should be grateful for, not angry at.
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EPT
