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On May 30 2012 01:15 lhr0909 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 10:56 Belial88 wrote:zerglingrodeo and kasu, thanks. You are spot on. Not sure how you can be "safe" if you are completely walled in by pylons, cannons and gateways on 1 base whereas you are able to make units/ drones from both sides of the wall and be able to take it down in time. Can you please link your sc2ranks profile? Your comments just show an absurd understanding of the game. What are you going to make? Are you not understanding anything anyone is posting in here? The OP's pool timing is LATER than a standard 15 pool first build, and his hatch pops late as well. The cannon will already be finished when the hatch pops. So you will have 1 cannon already up (not to mention if Toss decides to dedicate more and has 5 more halfway done at this time), and you can only morph drones. Toss will surely put down a 2nd cannon when he sees you keep your hatch. So you can morph 1 drone when 1 cannon, if not 2, if not 5, are already done. Eventually, you might be able to make 2 lings! Against a single cannon already finished! Even if you want to refuse to believe any of this, you could at least accept that this build will put you behind against a cannon rush. Feel free to msg me on b.net, or you know, actually test this. The amount of stuff you say that is just outright wrong is amazing. You clearly have not tested this build, but myself and Oboeman have already put more testing into this build than you or the OP has. And that's what is so damn insulting. We've done the testing on this build, and everyone else high level in the world has tested for themselves things like 12 hatches and 11 pools (Fruitdealer used to do a build very similar to this in the first season of GSL. Look it up, in his games on steppes of war, ZvP, vs hongun). But no, apparently you know better, even though there are very clear problems with this build that you refuse to accept. I really can't believe you said what you said. You think morphing drones on both sides of 2 cannons being up is going to do anything, or even morphing 6 lings? Not to mention you are way behind a Toss who's been mining with 17+ probes this entire time. User was warned for tone of this post and previous posts Hi Belial88, If you care to take the time to watch the replay, this is how I do it: http://drop.sc/188317Oh and here is the thing: unless I am facing a player on ladder who is going for 7 pylon 8 forge and put down the wall-in and cannons, i mean, who still preemptively makes cannons these days? I think even for a 14 forge, the creep will expand so they cannot put down the cannons in the correct spot on time. Maybe you should really try this build and be surprised how many people around the world actually will fall for this (except the protoss players who read this thread for sure lol) I am thinking this is more like a build to force your opponent to cannon wall you.  Oh and more: I don't really care what you said about the build is bad because you never tested it yourself and just pour out subjective comments anyways, so you might want to actually give me some replays and saying how this build is bad. And more: I won't have a huge boner towards this build, I just think this build would make playing zerg fun because I believe everybody is already sick of playing the same opening over and over again. Think about how many different openings terrans and protoss can do. Sometimes I just feel so sad that zerg has to open the same build over and over again  This build definitely has its potential not just on ladder, maybe even in a bo3, bo5 settings, because you are trying to force your opponent to react to what you do, even though the best reaction is to not do anything
The reason I asked for your league was because I thought it might be relevant why we seem to have such a strong disagreement here. I'm sorry if it comes off as snide, but there is a huge difference between leagues that may account for why lower level players often disagree with higher level players.
I'm sorry, but the replay you posted is strong evidence to exactly this.
1. The protoss makes a 2nd pylon at 14 supply. He still has not built his forge, when standard forge timing is 13.
2. He never chronoboosts in the beginning of the game, until he reaches 51 energy.
3. He actually fails to do a 3 ramp block, because he places his pylons in the wrong position. Maybe he does not have build grid selected, maybe it's a lack of experience, but his pylons aren't even placed in the correct spot. I suppose you patrolling the ramp had something to do with this.
4. You patrol the ramp. You've just spent the last 2 pages arguing with me, about how this build will stop cannon rushes with just lings, yet you don't even do what you've been arguing. Do you understand that my argument has only been that you will be ramp blocked if you don't pull drones?
Do you realize what the argument here is? I am stating that you need to pull drones with this build, just like any build, or you will lose to a cannon rush. You pulled drones in this replay. Exactly like I said you need to do. What?
5. You know, if the Protoss macro'd better (and how do you screw up your macro before 18 supply?), he would have actually pulled the ramp block before you started patrolling your drone.
6. You were only able to break the wall because Toss did not wall in correctly, or place his cannon correctly, or clearly did not make any more cannons when he should have. This is a direct result of his complete incompetency of building a forge on 13 and chronoboosting twice, and you blocking the ramp, which is exactly what I said you needed to do but you argued saying that you don't need to do.
7. When you break through the wall, Toss has 17 probes to your 11. He was ahead, but Toss' macro was abysmal so you eventually end up winning.
If you are on NA (OP or anyone), you can msg me on bnet Belial.869 and I can show you why this build won't hold a cannon rush at higher levels. Or just msg any masters toss, my toss/cannon rushing is like gold level at this point. Regardless, 11 pool and 14 pool are both ahead economically to this build anyways, as 4 people have shown through testing.
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On May 30 2012 01:15 lhr0909 wrote:
I don't really care what you said about the build is bad because you never tested it yourself and just pour out subjective comments anyways, so you might want to actually give me some replays and saying how this build is bad.
One more thing, and this is directed not only at you but to anyone reading this:
When you make a thread forwarding some new strategy or defend someone else's strategy, the burden of proof is on you to explain why it is good/useful/cheesey/smart/beneficial. It's not up to better players to explain to you the many reasons your build/opener/strategy is outdated/bad/inefficient--it's up to you to prove in some way why it is good.
You're asking/demanding/criticizing another poster for failing to provide evidence (that he actually did provide in ample supply, but that's not relevant to this criticism) that you yourself are also unwilling/unable to provide.
And the reason this is especially salient here is because there is almost certainly no evidence you or the OP could provide that would legitimize this opener. That's not to say that it would be impossible, but again, the burden of proof is on you to show that an opener widely considered inferior to many other common openers is superior in some way.
If you have some great idea, you should definitely post it here in this forum, but only if you can provide replays, analysis, and some semblance of an argument for why it is useful or practical. OP did none of these things, and neither did you.
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Hey everyone.
I'm a gold league Z (low, I know) and have had tremendous success with this build. I haven't tested the exact timings of whether this is close enough to the typical 14p/16h to be worth it, but it completely denies the 9scout pylon hatch block.
However, you NEED to pull a worker to scout around your own base for any cannon rush/pylon wall-ins that may happen. I've never had this happen against me, but I feel that all hatch-firsts suffer from this. Also, it would be nice if you put a third-base timing (I've been throwing mine down ~5:30, which I feel is WAY late). When the +1 6-gate would hit, ~8:30, I'm just starting roaches.
Basically:
-I really dislike having no 9 overlord. I rely on it exclusively for keeping my hatch safe from cannon rush shenanigans.
-I love how your hatch will almost never get blocked
-More experimentation with third timing would be nice. Say I scout the FFE, I know I can be defensive, is the 4:30 3rd still viable with this build? You say that it's another way to open that "You get double queens and double hatches the fastest way possible, which thus enables you with a huge burst economically for larva and drones afterwards, therefore you don't fall behind," but if you don't take a third, you're REALLY behind (lol gotta love having no cost-effective units  )
Again though, I do LIKE this build, it just needs a lot more refining past the ~20 supply mark
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^ Hi Mavvie. If you are just joining the conversation, Oboeman, myself, and I believe one other poster, tested this build. Builds like this have been tested in the Zerg Openers thread as well (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481).
Even with the quicker hatch, you are behind 14pool/4 lings to break a pylon down/22 hatch.
And any sort of timing at 7:00+ is the same regardless of what build you do, since the economy of your opening start to normalize around then. You are just a couple drones behind or ahead depending on your opening, and in the case of this build, you are behind 700 resources (which is actually a ton, but you could still normalize around 8:00).
By the way, while 6 gate +1 usually hits at 8:30+, there are certain zealot based gate timings that hit much earlier and would kill you (huk 8 gate zealot for example). Regardless of what opening you did, you would need a 6:30 warren and start roaches at 7:30.
You can take a third whenever you want, with any build, but comparing one opening to the other, you are either later on your third or behind in drones (theoretically you can double expand at 6 supply, but then you are just dead in drone count).
There's a reason this build doesn't really work. Is it viable? Sure, any opener becomes viable by the 8:00 mark. But you will be behind than if you did a standard opening, and you may be really punished if you fought some sort of timing that does punish openings (cannon rushes, proxy gates - i imagine a strong non-proxy 2 gate would really hurt you).
In gold though, you could probably just get away with hatch first and patrolling 3 drones at the bottom, if you wanted to use non-viable openings that you could get away with in lower levels.
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Just tested this out. I'm a 1100 masters and my friend is top 40 GM zerg (I had him offrace as toss).
I held off his cannon rush perfectly with the exact amount of drones I needed and everything that I could've done, and I came out of the engagement 20 probes to 10 drones.
I transitioned into a standard game and I had 50 drones at the 10 minute mark, even after some gosu ling harass when i sneaked 4 lings into his main. But I was down too many workers and couldn't catch up economically no matter what.
I'm not a pro and neither is he, but I think we're good enough to give an intelligent verdict that this build is bad.
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I originally liked the idea that this build has, but I thought that it would be better as a 3 base build. One of the reasons zerg is keeping up with protoss in macro is because of this early third that they have been taking. I quickly worked out the timings and have made a few changes so that this build won't cause the player to suffer in the long run.
Double extractor trick for 12/10 hatch
11/10 spawning pool
10/10 overlord
extractor trick for 11/10 drone
15/18 queen
17/20 overlord
Once there are sixteen drones at main, rally to natural
22/28 queen
26/28 overlord
34/36 overlord
36/36 hatchery (third)
Build overlords as needed while droning
6:00 double gas in main, rally main back to main and rally natural to third
45/52 queen to go to third
7:00 roach warren, evolution chamber, lair
metabolic boost with next 100 gas\
7:30 1 gas at natural
+1 range/melee (depending if you want to go roaches or heavy spine/macro)
play like a regular game from now on
the drone count timings when compared to a 15 pool 16 hatch build are:
3:00 3:30 4:00 4:30 5:00 5:30 6:00 6:30 7:00 7:30 8:00 8:30
12 hatch 11 pool 11 15 17 20 24 31 35 40 49 48 63 71
15 pool 16 hatch 15 17 17 20 22 26 32 39 52 55 55 66
If no gasses are seen, units should start to be made around 7:45 to 8:00. If 1 gas is seen, units should start to be made from 8:00 to 8:15. If 2 gasses are seen, units should start to be made at 8:15 to 8:30. This is to defend against whatever pressure/all in the protoss will be doing. If air is seen, make queens because they can defend against the ground as well, and make one spore at each base.
Thanks
Edit: sorry the drone timings came out wierd, I'll just explain them.
The format will be:
Timing: 12 hatch/11 pool drone count vs 15 pool/16 hatch drone count
3:00: 11 drones vs 15 drones
3:30: 15 drones vs 17 drones
4:00: 17 drones vs 17 drones
4:30: 20 drones vs 20 drones
5:00: 24 drones vs 20 drones
5:30: 31 drones vs 26 drones
6:00: 35 drones vs 32 drones
6:30: 40 drones vs 39 drones
7:00: 49 drones vs 52 drones
7:30: 48 drones vs 55 drones
8:00: 63 drones vs 55 drones
8:30: 71 drones vs 66 drones
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^what do you mean drone count? Can you go by supply instead, its kind of deceing. Going by drone count because you will often have 8+ drones tied up as morphing eggs (not implying you are being malicious, just deceiving as in you can't clearly tell).
Also, what level are you? Youd be surprised that even mid masters can't macro correctly in a build order tester against no opponent, and that lower level players cannot pull off basic macro in a build order tester (see cecils macro thread):
And pros regualrly hit 70+ supply in actual games going 14p22hatch by 8:00, so you hitting only 61 suply (I assume 3 queens) in a build order tester with zero units sounds more like error on your part then the build.
What yoou say completely flies in the face of what myself (1k masters), oboeman (higher masters), jombo (top masters), and TOP(top 40 GM) have said, so please provide evidence.
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4:00: 17 drones vs 17 drones
4:30: 20 drones vs 20 drones
5:00: 24 drones vs 20 drones
5:30: 31 drones vs 26 drones
7:30: 48 drones vs 55 drones
8:00: 63 drones vs 55 drones
8:30: 71 drones vs 66 drones
Last edit: 2012-05-31 22:28:27
what happened here?
To me it looks like there are times (on both sides) where for some reason larva isn't being used, or is being used on something besides drones which isn't part of the comparison.
Going 15 pool 15 hatch has the same number of larva but more minerals than the 12 hatch build. This means that 15 pool will always get the earlier 3rd base and will always be ahead in larva from that point onward. Or if you stay on 2 base, they will have the same drone count but 15 pool will have tons of minerals and 12 hatch won't. I don't really see a single scenario where 12 hatch can pull ahead.
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yea you took your third ridiculously late with that bananas build (as what happens with the build). What was your third timing with the standard build, because standard third timing these days is 22-26, historically it's been 18-32. But watch suhosin vs slayerstoss on whirlwind, you'll see that a direct result of planting the hatch as late as 38 costs you about 10 supply by the 8:00 mark.
Your results of both 62 and 55 are actually really low for the 8:00 mark (if they are supply). I'm guessing you didn't macro correctly, in either of the games, which led to skewed results for both of the builds. But if that's actually the worker counts, and not supply, that would be really impressive, as like I said, at 8:00 people tend to have only about 50 workers out, and then like 10+ more actually morphing. I don't think 62 drones actually out is even possible at the 8:00 mark, and 55 is probably the limit of how many workers you can actually have out by then (as in pros reach this number, so unless you are a higher level player, I have some doubts - because generally even lower masters players struggle to pull off a basic macro build order in the unit tester).
So it's all very confusing what you are saying.
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Belial, I never said anything about the macro aspect of this build. The opening is almost negligible in ZvP at the moment in terms of the 8minute mark economy, 14/15p 15h, third timing etc.
My beef with the build is that it dies 100% to a cannon rush. There is nothing from a toss beating this every game out of 100 with a reactive cannon rush when they 9scout this providing they didn't scout it last position in taldarim/antiga/entombed.
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On June 02 2012 07:47 Belial88 wrote:
yea you took your third ridiculously late with that bananas build (as what happens with the build). What was your third timing with the standard build, because standard third timing these days is 22-26, historically it's been 18-32. But watch suhosin vs slayerstoss on whirlwind, you'll see that a direct result of planting the hatch as late as 38 costs you about 10 supply by the 8:00 mark.
Your results of both 62 and 55 are actually really low for the 8:00 mark (if they are supply). I'm guessing you didn't macro correctly, in either of the games, which led to skewed results for both of the builds. But if that's actually the worker counts, and not supply, that would be really impressive, as like I said, at 8:00 people tend to have only about 50 workers out, and then like 10+ more actually morphing. I don't think 62 drones actually out is even possible at the 8:00 mark, and 55 is probably the limit of how many workers you can actually have out by then (as in pros reach this number, so unless you are a higher level player, I have some doubts - because generally even lower masters players struggle to pull off a basic macro build order in the unit tester).
So it's all very confusing what you are saying.
Sorry about that
I should have said that it is in a controlled environment where I made nothing but drones. Lings would need to be made for each case if a hatchery was blocked or if zealot pressure was incoming. These are the correct drone timings. The early second queen makes up for the later hatchery. This does not refer to the supply because it does not account for queens, only workers. The reason they surpass each other is because of the way that queens work.
I'm sorry that it was confusing, but it is very true, and I am about 900-1000 masters.
This only refers to hatched drones, drones in eggs are discounted, even if they are very close to finished.
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On June 02 2012 08:05 rancidmeat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 07:47 Belial88 wrote:
yea you took your third ridiculously late with that bananas build (as what happens with the build). What was your third timing with the standard build, because standard third timing these days is 22-26, historically it's been 18-32. But watch suhosin vs slayerstoss on whirlwind, you'll see that a direct result of planting the hatch as late as 38 costs you about 10 supply by the 8:00 mark.
Your results of both 62 and 55 are actually really low for the 8:00 mark (if they are supply). I'm guessing you didn't macro correctly, in either of the games, which led to skewed results for both of the builds. But if that's actually the worker counts, and not supply, that would be really impressive, as like I said, at 8:00 people tend to have only about 50 workers out, and then like 10+ more actually morphing. I don't think 62 drones actually out is even possible at the 8:00 mark, and 55 is probably the limit of how many workers you can actually have out by then (as in pros reach this number, so unless you are a higher level player, I have some doubts - because generally even lower masters players struggle to pull off a basic macro build order in the unit tester).
So it's all very confusing what you are saying. Sorry about that I should have said that it is in a controlled environment where I made nothing but drones. Lings would need to be made for each case if a hatchery was blocked or if zealot pressure was incoming. These are the correct drone timings. The early second queen makes up for the later hatchery. This does not refer to the supply because it does not account for queens, only workers. The reason they surpass each other is because of the way that queens work. I'm sorry that it was confusing, but it is very true, and I am about 900-1000 masters. This only refers to hatched drones, drones in eggs are discounted, even if they are very close to finished.
I don't main zerg anymore, but you should certainly have more than 55 supply of drones at the 8 minute mark if all you made is drones.
http://drop.sc/189894
With 14pool/16hatch, and no real build order since I don't play zerg, I reached 67 pure drones at 8 minutes.Everything mining, appropriate upgrades/buildings. 13 roaches making and enough gas for speed/+1 missile at 8:50.
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On June 02 2012 09:30 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 08:05 rancidmeat wrote:On June 02 2012 07:47 Belial88 wrote:
yea you took your third ridiculously late with that bananas build (as what happens with the build). What was your third timing with the standard build, because standard third timing these days is 22-26, historically it's been 18-32. But watch suhosin vs slayerstoss on whirlwind, you'll see that a direct result of planting the hatch as late as 38 costs you about 10 supply by the 8:00 mark.
Your results of both 62 and 55 are actually really low for the 8:00 mark (if they are supply). I'm guessing you didn't macro correctly, in either of the games, which led to skewed results for both of the builds. But if that's actually the worker counts, and not supply, that would be really impressive, as like I said, at 8:00 people tend to have only about 50 workers out, and then like 10+ more actually morphing. I don't think 62 drones actually out is even possible at the 8:00 mark, and 55 is probably the limit of how many workers you can actually have out by then (as in pros reach this number, so unless you are a higher level player, I have some doubts - because generally even lower masters players struggle to pull off a basic macro build order in the unit tester).
So it's all very confusing what you are saying. Sorry about that I should have said that it is in a controlled environment where I made nothing but drones. Lings would need to be made for each case if a hatchery was blocked or if zealot pressure was incoming. These are the correct drone timings. The early second queen makes up for the later hatchery. This does not refer to the supply because it does not account for queens, only workers. The reason they surpass each other is because of the way that queens work. I'm sorry that it was confusing, but it is very true, and I am about 900-1000 masters. This only refers to hatched drones, drones in eggs are discounted, even if they are very close to finished. I don't main zerg anymore, but you should certainly have more than 55 supply of drones at the 8 minute mark if all you made is drones. http://drop.sc/189894With 14pool/16hatch, and no real build order since I don't play zerg, I reached 67 pure drones at 8 minutes.Everything mining, appropriate upgrades/buildings. 13 roaches making and enough gas for speed/+1 missile at 8:50.
I also did the build though, making gasses, lair, roach warren, etc when necessary.
I plan to post replays on monday with the best macro I can dish out (which is pretty damn good) to show the timings. Plus it will go with the build I originally posted.
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On June 02 2012 09:40 rancidmeat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 09:30 Jombozeus wrote:On June 02 2012 08:05 rancidmeat wrote:On June 02 2012 07:47 Belial88 wrote:
yea you took your third ridiculously late with that bananas build (as what happens with the build). What was your third timing with the standard build, because standard third timing these days is 22-26, historically it's been 18-32. But watch suhosin vs slayerstoss on whirlwind, you'll see that a direct result of planting the hatch as late as 38 costs you about 10 supply by the 8:00 mark.
Your results of both 62 and 55 are actually really low for the 8:00 mark (if they are supply). I'm guessing you didn't macro correctly, in either of the games, which led to skewed results for both of the builds. But if that's actually the worker counts, and not supply, that would be really impressive, as like I said, at 8:00 people tend to have only about 50 workers out, and then like 10+ more actually morphing. I don't think 62 drones actually out is even possible at the 8:00 mark, and 55 is probably the limit of how many workers you can actually have out by then (as in pros reach this number, so unless you are a higher level player, I have some doubts - because generally even lower masters players struggle to pull off a basic macro build order in the unit tester).
So it's all very confusing what you are saying. Sorry about that I should have said that it is in a controlled environment where I made nothing but drones. Lings would need to be made for each case if a hatchery was blocked or if zealot pressure was incoming. These are the correct drone timings. The early second queen makes up for the later hatchery. This does not refer to the supply because it does not account for queens, only workers. The reason they surpass each other is because of the way that queens work. I'm sorry that it was confusing, but it is very true, and I am about 900-1000 masters. This only refers to hatched drones, drones in eggs are discounted, even if they are very close to finished. I don't main zerg anymore, but you should certainly have more than 55 supply of drones at the 8 minute mark if all you made is drones. http://drop.sc/189894With 14pool/16hatch, and no real build order since I don't play zerg, I reached 67 pure drones at 8 minutes.Everything mining, appropriate upgrades/buildings. 13 roaches making and enough gas for speed/+1 missile at 8:50. I also did the build though, making gasses, lair, roach warren, etc when necessary. I plan to post replays on monday with the best macro I can dish out (which is pretty damn good) to show the timings. Plus it will go with the build I originally posted.
Did you check the replay? So did I. Watch it, please!
Either something horribly different from our definitions of pure drones or standard building timings, or you just need to work on getting your drones bro.
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On June 02 2012 09:41 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 09:40 rancidmeat wrote:On June 02 2012 09:30 Jombozeus wrote:On June 02 2012 08:05 rancidmeat wrote:On June 02 2012 07:47 Belial88 wrote:
yea you took your third ridiculously late with that bananas build (as what happens with the build). What was your third timing with the standard build, because standard third timing these days is 22-26, historically it's been 18-32. But watch suhosin vs slayerstoss on whirlwind, you'll see that a direct result of planting the hatch as late as 38 costs you about 10 supply by the 8:00 mark.
Your results of both 62 and 55 are actually really low for the 8:00 mark (if they are supply). I'm guessing you didn't macro correctly, in either of the games, which led to skewed results for both of the builds. But if that's actually the worker counts, and not supply, that would be really impressive, as like I said, at 8:00 people tend to have only about 50 workers out, and then like 10+ more actually morphing. I don't think 62 drones actually out is even possible at the 8:00 mark, and 55 is probably the limit of how many workers you can actually have out by then (as in pros reach this number, so unless you are a higher level player, I have some doubts - because generally even lower masters players struggle to pull off a basic macro build order in the unit tester).
So it's all very confusing what you are saying. Sorry about that I should have said that it is in a controlled environment where I made nothing but drones. Lings would need to be made for each case if a hatchery was blocked or if zealot pressure was incoming. These are the correct drone timings. The early second queen makes up for the later hatchery. This does not refer to the supply because it does not account for queens, only workers. The reason they surpass each other is because of the way that queens work. I'm sorry that it was confusing, but it is very true, and I am about 900-1000 masters. This only refers to hatched drones, drones in eggs are discounted, even if they are very close to finished. I don't main zerg anymore, but you should certainly have more than 55 supply of drones at the 8 minute mark if all you made is drones. http://drop.sc/189894With 14pool/16hatch, and no real build order since I don't play zerg, I reached 67 pure drones at 8 minutes.Everything mining, appropriate upgrades/buildings. 13 roaches making and enough gas for speed/+1 missile at 8:50. I also did the build though, making gasses, lair, roach warren, etc when necessary. I plan to post replays on monday with the best macro I can dish out (which is pretty damn good) to show the timings. Plus it will go with the build I originally posted. Did you check the replay? So did I. Watch it, please! Either something horribly different from our definitions of pure drones or standard building timings, or you just need to work on getting your drones bro.
Sorry, I can't watch until monday, . I will watch it though, and I plan to do a redone version where I am more focused because I did that last minute. I wasn't trying to be extremely accurate at the time, just to make a 3 hatch build out of the bananas build where you come out almost exactly the same.
The idea is to not get your hatch blocked. in a real game you would need to patrol at the bottom of your ramp by 2:20 and you would also need to build zerglings. I just don't particularly like 2 hatch builds but I liked the idea of an uncontested natural so I wanted to make it a build.
Regardless, you either come out even, a little ahead, or a little behind. I'd expect to be cannon rushed a lot during this build so it is only good if you are good at dealing with cannon rushes, though the early creep from the hatch should help too I think.
I will recheck the drone counts on monday and watch your replays too, I'm sorry that I can't do it sooner.
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On June 02 2012 10:59 rancidmeat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 09:41 Jombozeus wrote:On June 02 2012 09:40 rancidmeat wrote:On June 02 2012 09:30 Jombozeus wrote:On June 02 2012 08:05 rancidmeat wrote:On June 02 2012 07:47 Belial88 wrote:
yea you took your third ridiculously late with that bananas build (as what happens with the build). What was your third timing with the standard build, because standard third timing these days is 22-26, historically it's been 18-32. But watch suhosin vs slayerstoss on whirlwind, you'll see that a direct result of planting the hatch as late as 38 costs you about 10 supply by the 8:00 mark.
Your results of both 62 and 55 are actually really low for the 8:00 mark (if they are supply). I'm guessing you didn't macro correctly, in either of the games, which led to skewed results for both of the builds. But if that's actually the worker counts, and not supply, that would be really impressive, as like I said, at 8:00 people tend to have only about 50 workers out, and then like 10+ more actually morphing. I don't think 62 drones actually out is even possible at the 8:00 mark, and 55 is probably the limit of how many workers you can actually have out by then (as in pros reach this number, so unless you are a higher level player, I have some doubts - because generally even lower masters players struggle to pull off a basic macro build order in the unit tester).
So it's all very confusing what you are saying. Sorry about that I should have said that it is in a controlled environment where I made nothing but drones. Lings would need to be made for each case if a hatchery was blocked or if zealot pressure was incoming. These are the correct drone timings. The early second queen makes up for the later hatchery. This does not refer to the supply because it does not account for queens, only workers. The reason they surpass each other is because of the way that queens work. I'm sorry that it was confusing, but it is very true, and I am about 900-1000 masters. This only refers to hatched drones, drones in eggs are discounted, even if they are very close to finished. I don't main zerg anymore, but you should certainly have more than 55 supply of drones at the 8 minute mark if all you made is drones. http://drop.sc/189894With 14pool/16hatch, and no real build order since I don't play zerg, I reached 67 pure drones at 8 minutes.Everything mining, appropriate upgrades/buildings. 13 roaches making and enough gas for speed/+1 missile at 8:50. I also did the build though, making gasses, lair, roach warren, etc when necessary. I plan to post replays on monday with the best macro I can dish out (which is pretty damn good) to show the timings. Plus it will go with the build I originally posted. Did you check the replay? So did I. Watch it, please! Either something horribly different from our definitions of pure drones or standard building timings, or you just need to work on getting your drones bro. Sorry, I can't watch until monday, . I will watch it though, and I plan to do a redone version where I am more focused because I did that last minute. I wasn't trying to be extremely accurate at the time, just to make a 3 hatch build out of the bananas build where you come out almost exactly the same. The idea is to not get your hatch blocked. in a real game you would need to patrol at the bottom of your ramp by 2:20 and you would also need to build zerglings. I just don't particularly like 2 hatch builds but I liked the idea of an uncontested natural so I wanted to make it a build. Regardless, you either come out even, a little ahead, or a little behind. I'd expect to be cannon rushed a lot during this build so it is only good if you are good at dealing with cannon rushes, though the early creep from the hatch should help too I think. I will recheck the drone counts on monday and watch your replays too, I'm sorry that I can't do it sooner.
Man, you are not reading my arguments. This build has a 0% survival rate against a cannon rush. A cannon rush pylon comes down when you only have 11 drones, and you have no second overlord so you have to send down 1 drone and patrol your ramp, 11 drones.
When his first pylon comes up, you have to bring 4 more drones, 2 on each side of the pylon and 1 to chase the probe. At this point the probe will make more pylons and you will need to bring around 8 drones to defend a proper cannon rush. This leaves you with 3 drones mining. By the time your 12hatch finishes, you will have to make 2 lings and a queen and have them out before drones can go back to work, so you will stay on 3drone mining for at least 2 ingame minutes.
I tried this with LGTop, whos high GM, and he came out of the cannon rush with 20 probes and a nexus after he cancels his cannons and lets the 2 pylons die, while I come out with 4 lings, 1 queen, and 11 drones. At this point he has to cut probes for 10 seconds to get a cannon up so my 4 lings don't slip into his main, so when the macrogame transition is complete, he has 20 drones and I have 13 drones and a queen and 4 lings. At the 10 minute mark, after pure droning (my macro is better than yours according to our "tests") I had 46 drones to 55 probes, since getting a 3rd at a proper timing is impossible.
I held off the cannon rush with perfect control (he sucks with protoss) and I was infinitely behind. The truth is that you cannot have an economy with this build when anyone tries to cannon rush you.
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On June 02 2012 07:47 Belial88 wrote:
yea you took your third ridiculously late with that bananas build (as what happens with the build). What was your third timing with the standard build, because standard third timing these days is 22-26, historically it's been 18-32. But watch suhosin vs slayerstoss on whirlwind, you'll see that a direct result of planting the hatch as late as 38 costs you about 10 supply by the 8:00 mark.
Your results of both 62 and 55 are actually really low for the 8:00 mark (if they are supply). I'm guessing you didn't macro correctly, in either of the games, which led to skewed results for both of the builds. But if that's actually the worker counts, and not supply, that would be really impressive, as like I said, at 8:00 people tend to have only about 50 workers out, and then like 10+ more actually morphing. I don't think 62 drones actually out is even possible at the 8:00 mark, and 55 is probably the limit of how many workers you can actually have out by then (as in pros reach this number, so unless you are a higher level player, I have some doubts - because generally even lower masters players struggle to pull off a basic macro build order in the unit tester).
So it's all very confusing what you are saying.
My record is 64 drones by 8:00 with my lair, evolution chamber, and roach warren finishing ~8:00. It is possible but everything has to go perfectly.
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On June 02 2012 11:13 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 10:59 rancidmeat wrote:On June 02 2012 09:41 Jombozeus wrote:On June 02 2012 09:40 rancidmeat wrote:On June 02 2012 09:30 Jombozeus wrote:On June 02 2012 08:05 rancidmeat wrote:On June 02 2012 07:47 Belial88 wrote:
yea you took your third ridiculously late with that bananas build (as what happens with the build). What was your third timing with the standard build, because standard third timing these days is 22-26, historically it's been 18-32. But watch suhosin vs slayerstoss on whirlwind, you'll see that a direct result of planting the hatch as late as 38 costs you about 10 supply by the 8:00 mark.
Your results of both 62 and 55 are actually really low for the 8:00 mark (if they are supply). I'm guessing you didn't macro correctly, in either of the games, which led to skewed results for both of the builds. But if that's actually the worker counts, and not supply, that would be really impressive, as like I said, at 8:00 people tend to have only about 50 workers out, and then like 10+ more actually morphing. I don't think 62 drones actually out is even possible at the 8:00 mark, and 55 is probably the limit of how many workers you can actually have out by then (as in pros reach this number, so unless you are a higher level player, I have some doubts - because generally even lower masters players struggle to pull off a basic macro build order in the unit tester).
So it's all very confusing what you are saying. Sorry about that I should have said that it is in a controlled environment where I made nothing but drones. Lings would need to be made for each case if a hatchery was blocked or if zealot pressure was incoming. These are the correct drone timings. The early second queen makes up for the later hatchery. This does not refer to the supply because it does not account for queens, only workers. The reason they surpass each other is because of the way that queens work. I'm sorry that it was confusing, but it is very true, and I am about 900-1000 masters. This only refers to hatched drones, drones in eggs are discounted, even if they are very close to finished. I don't main zerg anymore, but you should certainly have more than 55 supply of drones at the 8 minute mark if all you made is drones. http://drop.sc/189894With 14pool/16hatch, and no real build order since I don't play zerg, I reached 67 pure drones at 8 minutes.Everything mining, appropriate upgrades/buildings. 13 roaches making and enough gas for speed/+1 missile at 8:50. I also did the build though, making gasses, lair, roach warren, etc when necessary. I plan to post replays on monday with the best macro I can dish out (which is pretty damn good) to show the timings. Plus it will go with the build I originally posted. Did you check the replay? So did I. Watch it, please! Either something horribly different from our definitions of pure drones or standard building timings, or you just need to work on getting your drones bro. Sorry, I can't watch until monday, . I will watch it though, and I plan to do a redone version where I am more focused because I did that last minute. I wasn't trying to be extremely accurate at the time, just to make a 3 hatch build out of the bananas build where you come out almost exactly the same. The idea is to not get your hatch blocked. in a real game you would need to patrol at the bottom of your ramp by 2:20 and you would also need to build zerglings. I just don't particularly like 2 hatch builds but I liked the idea of an uncontested natural so I wanted to make it a build. Regardless, you either come out even, a little ahead, or a little behind. I'd expect to be cannon rushed a lot during this build so it is only good if you are good at dealing with cannon rushes, though the early creep from the hatch should help too I think. I will recheck the drone counts on monday and watch your replays too, I'm sorry that I can't do it sooner. Man, you are not reading my arguments. This build has a 0% survival rate against a cannon rush. A cannon rush pylon comes down when you only have 11 drones, and you have no second overlord so you have to send down 1 drone and patrol your ramp, 11 drones. When his first pylon comes up, you have to bring 4 more drones, 2 on each side of the pylon and 1 to chase the probe. At this point the probe will make more pylons and you will need to bring around 8 drones to defend a proper cannon rush. This leaves you with 3 drones mining. By the time your 12hatch finishes, you will have to make 2 lings and a queen and have them out before drones can go back to work, so you will stay on 3drone mining for at least 2 ingame minutes. I tried this with LGTop, whos high GM, and he came out of the cannon rush with 20 probes and a nexus after he cancels his cannons and lets the 2 pylons die, while I come out with 4 lings, 1 queen, and 11 drones. At this point he has to cut probes for 10 seconds to get a cannon up so my 4 lings don't slip into his main, so when the macrogame transition is complete, he has 20 drones and I have 13 drones and a queen and 4 lings. At the 10 minute mark, after pure droning (my macro is better than yours according to our "tests") I had 46 drones to 55 probes, since getting a 3rd at a proper timing is impossible. I held off the cannon rush with perfect control (he sucks with protoss) and I was infinitely behind. The truth is that you cannot have an economy with this build when anyone tries to cannon rush you.
You either aren't very smart or you simply like to feel better than everyone. First of all, this has not been an argument, I have not disagreed with anything you said. Secondly, this is the first time you mentioned the cannon rush so no, I didn't read your non-existing argument on that.
You need to bring 3 drones down to help kill a cannon, 4 more if he builds a second cannon. I agree that it will be difficult to stop, maybe even impossible, but the build was just made recently and nobody has gotten enough chances (20-30) to truly decide whether or not this is true. 1 example does not prove to me anything, I'd like to try it a couple of times before banishing it forever.
The third timing of this build comes out roughly around 5:30 un cannoned, but it would have to be put a little further back, i would suppose (again I have a lack of trying the build). The third would still need to be made no later than 6:00 in the case of a cannon rush.
I'm sorry if you think I am disagreeing with you, but truth be told, I have only done this build enough to find the third timing and after that, I tacked on the rest of my normal ZvP build (15 pool, 16 hatch). I'm going to need more time before knowing if it is actually any good or not. I don't even know if a 9 scout gets to the hatch in time to block it.
I would like to ask you to read the full conversation before replying to this, otherwise I am not interested in reading anything else you have to say as all you have done is insult me and put yourself on a pedestal (perhaps deserved, perhaps not). Thank you for trying the build though, I do appreciate it and I'll get back to you about the drone timings on monday, though I probably still won't have the cannons fully figured out.
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I honestly... don't even see why you would do this.
Why are you willingly putting yourself behind in drone count? Just to "try a different build"? You're not gaining any faster tech, you don't survive cannon rushes easier (or well, easier enough to justify the build).... this just doesn't make any sense to me.
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On June 02 2012 12:48 rancidmeat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 11:13 Jombozeus wrote:On June 02 2012 10:59 rancidmeat wrote:On June 02 2012 09:41 Jombozeus wrote:On June 02 2012 09:40 rancidmeat wrote:On June 02 2012 09:30 Jombozeus wrote:On June 02 2012 08:05 rancidmeat wrote:On June 02 2012 07:47 Belial88 wrote:
yea you took your third ridiculously late with that bananas build (as what happens with the build). What was your third timing with the standard build, because standard third timing these days is 22-26, historically it's been 18-32. But watch suhosin vs slayerstoss on whirlwind, you'll see that a direct result of planting the hatch as late as 38 costs you about 10 supply by the 8:00 mark.
Your results of both 62 and 55 are actually really low for the 8:00 mark (if they are supply). I'm guessing you didn't macro correctly, in either of the games, which led to skewed results for both of the builds. But if that's actually the worker counts, and not supply, that would be really impressive, as like I said, at 8:00 people tend to have only about 50 workers out, and then like 10+ more actually morphing. I don't think 62 drones actually out is even possible at the 8:00 mark, and 55 is probably the limit of how many workers you can actually have out by then (as in pros reach this number, so unless you are a higher level player, I have some doubts - because generally even lower masters players struggle to pull off a basic macro build order in the unit tester).
So it's all very confusing what you are saying. Sorry about that I should have said that it is in a controlled environment where I made nothing but drones. Lings would need to be made for each case if a hatchery was blocked or if zealot pressure was incoming. These are the correct drone timings. The early second queen makes up for the later hatchery. This does not refer to the supply because it does not account for queens, only workers. The reason they surpass each other is because of the way that queens work. I'm sorry that it was confusing, but it is very true, and I am about 900-1000 masters. This only refers to hatched drones, drones in eggs are discounted, even if they are very close to finished. I don't main zerg anymore, but you should certainly have more than 55 supply of drones at the 8 minute mark if all you made is drones. http://drop.sc/189894With 14pool/16hatch, and no real build order since I don't play zerg, I reached 67 pure drones at 8 minutes.Everything mining, appropriate upgrades/buildings. 13 roaches making and enough gas for speed/+1 missile at 8:50. I also did the build though, making gasses, lair, roach warren, etc when necessary. I plan to post replays on monday with the best macro I can dish out (which is pretty damn good) to show the timings. Plus it will go with the build I originally posted. Did you check the replay? So did I. Watch it, please! Either something horribly different from our definitions of pure drones or standard building timings, or you just need to work on getting your drones bro. Sorry, I can't watch until monday, . I will watch it though, and I plan to do a redone version where I am more focused because I did that last minute. I wasn't trying to be extremely accurate at the time, just to make a 3 hatch build out of the bananas build where you come out almost exactly the same. The idea is to not get your hatch blocked. in a real game you would need to patrol at the bottom of your ramp by 2:20 and you would also need to build zerglings. I just don't particularly like 2 hatch builds but I liked the idea of an uncontested natural so I wanted to make it a build. Regardless, you either come out even, a little ahead, or a little behind. I'd expect to be cannon rushed a lot during this build so it is only good if you are good at dealing with cannon rushes, though the early creep from the hatch should help too I think. I will recheck the drone counts on monday and watch your replays too, I'm sorry that I can't do it sooner. Man, you are not reading my arguments. This build has a 0% survival rate against a cannon rush. A cannon rush pylon comes down when you only have 11 drones, and you have no second overlord so you have to send down 1 drone and patrol your ramp, 11 drones. When his first pylon comes up, you have to bring 4 more drones, 2 on each side of the pylon and 1 to chase the probe. At this point the probe will make more pylons and you will need to bring around 8 drones to defend a proper cannon rush. This leaves you with 3 drones mining. By the time your 12hatch finishes, you will have to make 2 lings and a queen and have them out before drones can go back to work, so you will stay on 3drone mining for at least 2 ingame minutes. I tried this with LGTop, whos high GM, and he came out of the cannon rush with 20 probes and a nexus after he cancels his cannons and lets the 2 pylons die, while I come out with 4 lings, 1 queen, and 11 drones. At this point he has to cut probes for 10 seconds to get a cannon up so my 4 lings don't slip into his main, so when the macrogame transition is complete, he has 20 drones and I have 13 drones and a queen and 4 lings. At the 10 minute mark, after pure droning (my macro is better than yours according to our "tests") I had 46 drones to 55 probes, since getting a 3rd at a proper timing is impossible. I held off the cannon rush with perfect control (he sucks with protoss) and I was infinitely behind. The truth is that you cannot have an economy with this build when anyone tries to cannon rush you. You either aren't very smart or you simply like to feel better than everyone. First of all, this has not been an argument, I have not disagreed with anything you said. Secondly, this is the first time you mentioned the cannon rush so no, I didn't read your non-existing argument on that. You need to bring 3 drones down to help kill a cannon, 4 more if he builds a second cannon. I agree that it will be difficult to stop, maybe even impossible, but the build was just made recently and nobody has gotten enough chances (20-30) to truly decide whether or not this is true. 1 example does not prove to me anything, I'd like to try it a couple of times before banishing it forever. The third timing of this build comes out roughly around 5:30 un cannoned, but it would have to be put a little further back, i would suppose (again I have a lack of trying the build). The third would still need to be made no later than 6:00 in the case of a cannon rush. I'm sorry if you think I am disagreeing with you, but truth be told, I have only done this build enough to find the third timing and after that, I tacked on the rest of my normal ZvP build (15 pool, 16 hatch). I'm going to need more time before knowing if it is actually any good or not. I don't even know if a 9 scout gets to the hatch in time to block it. I would like to ask you to read the full conversation before replying to this, otherwise I am not interested in reading anything else you have to say as all you have done is insult me and put yourself on a pedestal (perhaps deserved, perhaps not). Thank you for trying the build though, I do appreciate it and I'll get back to you about the drone timings on monday, though I probably still won't have the cannons fully figured out.
1. An argument is not arguing. An argument can be any attempt to sway another person's opinion with your own. I use the term as far as I would say paragraph 1 of my thesis is my first argument.
2. I made the cannon rush test before your post, its etiquette to read what people post before you if you want to engage in a conversation.
3. Don't take it personal, I'm not.
4. It is mathematically impossible to hold off a cannon rush, 11 drones minus 8 is 3. You have enough minerals to make 1 queen and 4 lings and 1 overlord if you pull your 8 drones instantly when you see the pylon dropped.
5. No, its not possible to block with a 9scout.
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EPT
