[D] ZvP - The Bananas Build

On May 28 2012 11:42 Monsyphon wrote:
The things you can do with extractor tricking
Thanks, i'll try this out in real games
Can this build be integrated into more common zvp builds such as the 12 minute roach max out?

On May 28 2012 12:05 Belial88 wrote:
Dude this is terrible. Your premises are completely wacked out.

It's like saying "Hatch First is amazing!" but throwing it down at 6. "2 queens quickly is amazing! 6 pool and you'll have 2 queens before 14 poolers or hatch firster have 1!".

You are cutting WAY too many drones doing this opening. Double extractor trick also hurts, there is absolutely no reason to do that. The only reason you want to extractor trick is to get more drones in a short period of time, when you don't plan to make any more, and don't plan to bank money (ie 6 pool aggression with no plans to expand)

Seeing as how you are expanding here, you definitely need money. If you ever plan to expand, you should never extractor trick.

Also, by the way, you are still vulnerable to cannon rushes doing this. I don't know why you think you aren't - if your pool is later than 10 (and pool first at that, by the way), then toss can succesfully cannon rush you unless you pull drones, in the exact same manner as if you went 15 pool or hatch first.

A 14 pool goes down at 2:00. I see your 11 pool is going down at 2:14. So how in the world you think your 11 pool is good for defense, when it's down later than 14 pool? 14 pool is susceptible to cannon rushing and ramp blocking just the same as well. So you are less likely to do aggression early on or defend easier than 14 pool with this build.

And just because you get 2 queens out early, doesn't necessarily equate to better economy. Otherwise everyone would just 6 pool 6 hatch. You need a certain amount of drones, before hand, to make it worthwhile. Generally, that number is around 14-16.

And you saying you can make units earlier to handle 2 base all-ins shows a complete lack of understanding of the match-up... you realize such timings hit at 8:00+ right? Your opening will have very little bearing on timings made around then. 14 pool, 15 pool, 20 hatch, 16 hatch, these openings give very, very minor advantages at such timings (as in 1-4 drones worth, or maybe 100-300 minerals), but if you go double extractor trick, 11 pool, 12 hatch, you will definitely be behind a good chunk at such timings. Although again, it won't really matter, but if anything, you'll be slightly behind.

You saying you only have enough for 1 queen is evidence enough of how behind this build puts you. Your pool is later than a standard 14 pool, and you only have enough money for 1 queen - you should have enough for 2 queens, or about 300 minerals, at the 3:20 mark (actually more like 400, since 14 pool puts down the pool at 2:00 and your 11 pool is 2:14).

I recommend you check out the zerg openers thread, where they talk about a lot of the things you are talking about here, and you would see how sub-optimal they were anyways.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464

The only benefits I see in this build is that if Toss cannon rushes you, you can use drones to hold off the initial cannons and maybe have 6 lings out in time when he gets that critical mass of money and throws down 4+ cannon/pylons that 15 drones all pulled can't deal with - but you are just hurting yourself so much by going double extractor trick and such early pools.

You would be better off economically just going 14 pool 20 hatch.

Sorry. There is a reason why all the pros do the openings they do. People have done their research on these things. I'm not saying they are all correct, many koreans still extractor trick every game, but you have to come up with some evidence. Simply saying "Hey guys, I go 12 hatch 11 pool and I win on ladder!" isn't enough. Not neeaarly enough, not even if you were high masters. You have to give evidence why it's good. Saying you can hold 2 base all-ins makes no sense at all since that's way after openings are relevant, or that you can put aggression on toss (toss is the one who puts aggression on you...).



User was warned for this post

On May 28 2012 12:05 Belial88 wrote:
Dude this is terrible. Your premises are completely wacked out.

It's like saying "Hatch First is amazing!" but throwing it down at 6. "2 queens quickly is amazing! 6 pool and you'll have 2 queens before 14 poolers or hatch firster have 1!".

You are cutting WAY too many drones doing this opening. Double extractor trick also hurts, there is absolutely no reason to do that. The only reason you want to extractor trick is to get more drones in a short period of time, when you don't plan to make any more, and don't plan to bank money (ie 6 pool aggression with no plans to expand)

Seeing as how you are expanding here, you definitely need money. If you ever plan to expand, you should never extractor trick.

Also, by the way, you are still vulnerable to cannon rushes doing this. I don't know why you think you aren't - if your pool is later than 10 (and pool first at that, by the way), then toss can succesfully cannon rush you unless you pull drones, in the exact same manner as if you went 15 pool or hatch first.

A 14 pool goes down at 2:00. I see your 11 pool is going down at 2:14. So how in the world you think your 11 pool is good for defense, when it's down later than 14 pool? 14 pool is susceptible to cannon rushing and ramp blocking just the same as well. So you are less likely to do aggression early on or defend easier than 14 pool with this build.

And just because you get 2 queens out early, doesn't necessarily equate to better economy. Otherwise everyone would just 6 pool 6 hatch. You need a certain amount of drones, before hand, to make it worthwhile. Generally, that number is around 14-16.

And you saying you can make units earlier to handle 2 base all-ins shows a complete lack of understanding of the match-up... you realize such timings hit at 8:00+ right? Your opening will have very little bearing on timings made around then. 14 pool, 15 pool, 20 hatch, 16 hatch, these openings give very, very minor advantages at such timings (as in 1-4 drones worth, or maybe 100-300 minerals), but if you go double extractor trick, 11 pool, 12 hatch, you will definitely be behind a good chunk at such timings. Although again, it won't really matter, but if anything, you'll be slightly behind.

You saying you only have enough for 1 queen is evidence enough of how behind this build puts you. Your pool is later than a standard 14 pool, and you only have enough money for 1 queen - you should have enough for 2 queens, or about 300 minerals, at the 3:20 mark (actually more like 400, since 14 pool puts down the pool at 2:00 and your 11 pool is 2:14).

I recommend you check out the zerg openers thread, where they talk about a lot of the things you are talking about here, and you would see how sub-optimal they were anyways.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464

The only benefits I see in this build is that if Toss cannon rushes you, you can use drones to hold off the initial cannons and maybe have 6 lings out in time when he gets that critical mass of money and throws down 4+ cannon/pylons that 15 drones all pulled can't deal with - but you are just hurting yourself so much by going double extractor trick and such early pools.

You would be better off economically just going 14 pool 20 hatch.

Sorry. There is a reason why all the pros do the openings they do. People have done their research on these things. I'm not saying they are all correct, many koreans still extractor trick every game, but you have to come up with some evidence. Simply saying "Hey guys, I go 12 hatch 11 pool and I win on ladder!" isn't enough. Not neeaarly enough, not even if you were high masters. You have to give evidence why it's good. Saying you can hold 2 base all-ins makes no sense at all since that's way after openings are relevant, or that you can put aggression on toss (toss is the one who puts aggression on you...).



User was warned for this post

On May 28 2012 12:16 justindab0mb wrote:



Just wondering, why was this guy warned? He made some pretty good points. A player going hatch first AND getting a pool later than a 14 pool isn't going to be able to stop a dedicated cannon rush without taking considerable losses. The OP mentions that the hatchery will be nearing completion by the time a protoss' forge finishes but thats ONLY if they are playing eco. Even a normal 15 hatch would seem safer against cannon rushes than this because you could pull drones and not be so miserably behind in economy. Maybe he was a little harsh but he made some very good and valid points.

On May 28 2012 12:26 Keyz1 wrote:


Well I looked into it one more time.
The pool when done correctly goes down at 2:10.
The Natural hatchery finishes at 3:25.

A protoss going forge first, completes it at 2:45.
The earliest they can place a pylon is 2:30 (25 seconds to build)
The earliest they can place down a cannon is 2:55 (cannon takes 40 seconds to build --> 3:35)

The FIRST cannon completes 10 seconds after your natural is down, and creep has hit the ground and the protoss has no more options for the rush.
The SECOND cannon can't go down until 3:10, which means if the protoss bothered, it would complete by about 4minutes.

So......I know what your saying about the fact that you can TECHNICALLY still be cannon rushed. But I'm pretty sure 1 cannon and 1 pylon is very easy to stop, especially when you have two queens on the way and the option of making zerglings just incase.

There's no way 1 or 2 cannons is going to kill a natural expansion that has those kind of units available to defend it. I'm pretty sure it can almost always be stopped easily if the protoss even bothers, not to mention he has wasted resources on it AND your natural and two queens are already up and running. This puts you way ahead.

On May 28 2012 12:12 Belial88 wrote:
what's with the drone counts section? You aren't telling us how you are testing (are you making queens and gases and bulidings like you do in a normal game? what map is this? Are you taking 3 hatches?).

I mean if you are making 4 lings, 3 queens, a roach warren, 2 gas, evo chamber, lair, speed, than 50 drones at 6:30 is damn impressive. You really have 50 drones already actually out and mining at 6:30?

Please, show us the replay! That's insane. You are telling us that just by tweaking our openings a little bit, you can have about 30 more drones than DRG has at the 6:30 mark! That's insane! You're going to completely change the metagame!

On May 28 2012 12:26 Keyz1 wrote:

Well I looked into it one more time.
The pool when done correctly goes down at 2:10.
The Natural hatchery finishes at 3:25.

A protoss going forge first, completes it at 2:45.
The earliest they can place a pylon is 2:30 (25 seconds to build)
The earliest they can place down a cannon is 2:55 (cannon takes 40 seconds to build --> 3:35)

The FIRST cannon completes 10 seconds after your natural is down, and creep has hit the ground and the protoss has no more options for the rush.
The SECOND cannon can't go down until 3:10, which means if the protoss bothered, it would complete by about 4minutes.

So......I know what your saying about the fact that you can TECHNICALLY still be cannon rushed. But I'm pretty sure 1 cannon and 1 pylon is very easy to stop, especially when you have two queens on the way and the option of making zerglings just incase.

There's no way 1 or 2 cannons is going to kill a natural expansion that has those kind of units available to defend it. I'm pretty sure it can almost always be stopped easily if the protoss even bothers, not to mention he has wasted resources on it AND your natural and two queens are already up and running. This puts you way ahead.

Hi all,

I am going to open up a Ret's replay and count his drone count at the equivalent time:

4 minutes - 19
5 minutes - 23
6 minutes - 34
6 minutes 30 seconds - 42 - 3rd base just about to finish

replay link:
http://drop.sc/174273

So......I know what your saying about the fact that you can TECHNICALLY still be cannon rushed. But I'm pretty sure 1 cannon and 1 pylon is very easy to stop, especially when you have two queens on the way and the option of making zerglings just incase.

I think it is because he just listed out things he knew without reading ANY of the stuff that other people said in the replies. And he is super rude in general, not just in this thread. I really don't like him trying to be very "helpful" but only sends out only negative criticism without doing research himself. At least he should try out a normal 3 hatch build and see a difference before saying anything bad about this build.

I just wanted to add on, that if you mix in 1 gas geyser at 10/10 instead of extractor tricking for quick ling speed, if the protoss player decides to nexus first after scouting your quick natural, you can get to their base and potentially end the game quickly with a bunch of speedlings rallied to their natural. You'll have 11 drones for minerals and unlimited larva with the two queens for a relentless attack.

There comes a point at around 6minutes, where you minerals are skyrocketing really really high if your not spending them buildings and sctructures (even a third), I'll do my best to get a replay up.

Saying cannon rush will stop this is almost the same as saying 15p/16h isn't viable, 15p goes down 10 sec earlier than this pool...

On May 28 2012 12:05 Belial88 wrote:
The only reason you want to extractor trick is to get more drones in a short period of time, when you don't plan to make any more, and don't plan to bank money (ie 6 pool aggression with no plans to expand)

Seeing as how you are expanding here, you definitely need money. If you ever plan to expand, you should never extractor trick.

A 14 pool goes down at 2:00.

On May 28 2012 13:08 Belial88 wrote:
I was warned for opening "dude this is terrible" in a response to someone who put pictures in their post.



We don't know what the OP is doing though. Is he taking a third? Gas? And Ret is playing in a real game, his focus is on other things like scouting, reacting to the opponent, what his plans are.

The OP needs to do a standard build in YABOT, and then a mirror build in YABOT. It doesnt matter if he takes gas, a third, whatever, or not, but he needs to do the same thing in both builds.



Your pool is finishing after a 14 pool does. If a 14 pool can't get lings out in time, or queens in time, then neither will your build.

You NEED to pull drones, just like in any cannon rush. Feel free to PM me on bnet, belial.869 on NA, I can show you.

And right when your pool finishes, toss will have about 4-5 cannons thrown down, that will finish before your 15 drones can take them down (thats why you can't hatch first). Now, I stated in my post that maybe you could get away with it due to your pool timing, but that isn't the problem.

The problem is that you are so behind economically than a simple 14 pool 21 hatch.

And your assumption that this denies cannon rushes is wrong. Lings will never be out in time unless you go 10 pool first or earlier (which is ridiculous, essentially). You NEED to pull drones, no matter if you do this build, or hatch first, or 14 pool. it has nothing to do when your hatch is done, it has to do with your pool timing vs his forge timing.



I read the previous posts, and they are ridiculous. What is this, a 2nd account or something?

You are supposed to max out on roaches at 11:30, not 12:00. And what opening you do doesn't really affect something at the 12:00 mark. You can max on roaches just as easily if you go 10 pool or hatch first. Your opening has more bearing at the first 6 minutes of the game, not the 12 minute. That's like saying "here's my build order on how to get broodlords, it's super important you go 9 pool though".

For example...



What? This makes no sense at all.

How can you possibly 'end the game' against a nexus first, when your pool is later than a standard 14 pool? And you DEFINITELY won't have speed.

I avoid responding to completely irrelevant posts like this that aren't what the OP is talking about, so I don't sound like an asshole to some lower level player who is completely wrong and doesn't know what he's talking about, but is going to obviously get angry if anyone calls him out.

If someone goes Nexus-Forge-Gateway-2nd Pylon, sure, you can get lings in. But no Toss is going to do that - If Toss goes Nexus-Forge-Cannon, he will be fine.

Trust me, I've done a TON of research into this, I just spent 2 hours yesterday testing out build orders exactly like this.



yea i know. I'm not really sure how you are supposed to test build orders due to this. Once you are over 24 drones per mineral field, I think additional drones actually hurts your income. But a lot of builds don't realize advantages until after 6:00, which is when you will have just a ton of drones if you go purely drones.



I never said it wasn't viable. I said why bother doing this when a simple 14pool/21hatch with 4 lings clearing out a pylon (or just go 14 pool 16 hatch and pull 3 drones to deny pylon blocking) is ahead economically.

The OP also said that this build somehow deters cannon rushes. I was saying not necessarily - you need to pull drones just the same as with hatch first or 14 pool or any other build. You have to throw you pool down at about 1:00, or 10 pool, to make it so you can use only lings to deny a cannon rush - note in the pictures, his pool is later than the standard 14 pool first.

On May 28 2012 13:23 lhr0909 wrote:
Hi OP,

I just tried in a custom game on daybreak. I am not going to lie, I really like the opening! At least i can get a lot of silly wins because my opponent will be freaking out.

However, I am not able to achieve the same amount of drones as you do in the game. Here is what I did:

1. I did not overlord at 18 (did it at 20 because i am trying to simulate a situation where you want to get 4 lings faster, so at 18/20 supply i made 2 sets of lings before making an overlord

2. I put down my 3rd hatch at 28 supply. I had 10 larvae then (5:30 mark), but I really would love to have a relatively fast 3rd still, so I chose not to use the larvae. I guess I can tweak it later

3. I put down 3 gases at about 6:45, and at the same time, I put down my roach warren (similar to a DRG opening instead of the Stephano 6 min 2 gas opening). By 6:40, I am only 2-3 drones behind compared to Ret's normal ZvP drone count, which in my opinion is pretty good.

4. At the end I tried to max out on roaches and lings as fast as possible. I managed to get maxed at 12:15 mark, which is pretty much similar to the 12 min max out build.

For my mechanics level, I think I still have a lot of room to get a bit higher count than this, but that's about what I tested out so far. Hope OP can post his 3rd timing, as well as the gas timings so we can compare notes.

Thanks and gl hf.

Link for my trial:
http://drop.sc/187373

Untrue. Extractor trick is often worse, but it has nothing to do with expanding, but rather the time/supply of your spawning pool. For example, if you go 11 overpool, you should extractor trick, and that has nothing to do with whether or not you plan to expand.

Untrue, 15 pool can go down before 2:00.

Well, we can argue all day haha........

Anyway........the concept is there for you to use if you want. As for myself, I've noticed that if you are being cannon rushed, you can get 1 Queen,8 zerglings and start building a spine crawler by the time the protoss has a maximum of 2 cannons out.

I'm pretty sure, especially with creep helping along the way, you can defend it eventually and keep your natural expo no problem without pulling drones.

Pulling 1 drone to keep an eye on the probe at your natural while it's building isn't the end of the world either if your that paranoid about it.

On May 28 2012 13:37 Belial88 wrote:
Your build, considering the pool timing, might be able to get lings out in time to deal with that critical mass timing, but I question if the trade-off is worth it considering how much you are losing in drones with such an early pool, hatch, and extractor tricking, over a simple 14 pool, 4 lings, kill the pylon, 21 hatch build.

The creep alone definitely won't stop the cannon rush (it wont reach behind the mineral patches that quickly), and you definitely can't rely on only lings to deal with it. You have to pull drones.

msg me on bnet belial.869 and we can test things out.

On May 28 2012 13:08 Belial88 wrote:

I never said it wasn't viable. I said why bother doing this when a simple 14pool/21hatch with 4 lings clearing out a pylon (or just go 14 pool 16 hatch and pull 3 drones to deny pylon blocking) is ahead economically.

The OP also said that this build somehow deters cannon rushes. I was saying not necessarily - you need to pull drones just the same as with hatch first or 14 pool or any other build. You have to throw you pool down at about 1:00, or 10 pool, to make it so you can use only lings to deny a cannon rush - note in the pictures, his pool is later than the standard 14 pool first.

Well,................the trade-off does seem worth it though. I'm still hitting 40 drones by 6 minutes. I'm not behind in any way once you get past 5minutes or so. That's when your really start to feel it kick in. Which is usually when I decide to take a slightly later third as well. I make all my units while my third is building, because the droning is complete. Just a preference.

This is why 11/18 overpool is so nice - since you have much more ability to do things like punish nexus first and trivialize cannon rushes, it can end up giving you a bigger economic advantage than hatch first builds even if it isn't strictly as economically strong.

On May 28 2012 19:40 T.O.P. wrote:
I don't mind cannon rushing you to show you why this build is bad.

On May 28 2012 18:24 Macpo wrote:
I am always a bit surprised by reactions : why do some people absolutely want to shut down any unorthodox or even false idea? I am not saying here that the idea is good. I want to suggest that, before deciding whether some statement is true or not, maybe we should first appreciate its content in a friendly manner. Instead of destroying directly the idea, as if we were defending against an enemy.

This does not prevent us from criticizing it, it's rather a state of mind that takes into account that even something false may still provide us with some valuable information. Be it negative information on what we should not do. I personnally had never considered 12 hatch 11 pool, I didn't know how many drones I could have at the 6 minut mark with that, and now I have some information to make up my mind. This makes us more competent, which we should be grateful for, not angry at.

On May 28 2012 19:40 T.O.P. wrote:
I don't mind cannon rushing you to show you why this build is bad.

On May 28 2012 19:52 Belial88 wrote:


We all want a better build, of course. But this guy offers no evidence why his build is better, and just goes by "well I do it on low masters". It's kind of insulting - I know I've spent countless hours trying to test out better builds, but the thousands of pro games, and the millions of players, have somehow figured out what's best already. That isn't to say they are wrong on certain things, but this build is COMPLETELY different than anything else. If he were to say something like "13pool 14 hatch" or just one off or something, sure, with good evidence, replays, he could prove it.

So he brought up discussion, because others had to spend hours testing something because he failed to test it on his own, and look, we've proved that it's wrong. Not just myself, but multiple people have tested something that he couldn't do on his own. Not to mention a search would have answered it, by a thread someone else made a long time ago.

It's fine to create a discussion thread, or bring up the many ones that have already been created and created good stuff. But he's basically saying "hey, all of you guys, hey stephano, hey nestea, your wrong for doing what you did. You know those countless hours of testing you did? It's wrong, and stupid, because I've found a better way to do things, with a superior method of testing, laddering on NA".

Furthermore, a lot of the stuff he says is completely wrong, and could have been figured out with a simple search. IE that your opener somehow has any bearing on handling timing attack 6 minutes later, that you can put on aggression with a pool timing that is later than the standard pool timing, that you can prevent cannon rushes (how many times have I had to post saying 11 pool and later will autolose to a ramp block or cannon rush unless you deny the ramp block or pull drones just the same as if you did any other sort of opener). He could have read that really awesome zvp guide and known what was wrong here, and posted in it saying "what about this build?"

On May 28 2012 20:24 Macpo wrote:


Well, it's precisely what I want to underline: why would you consider making ungrounded assumptions, mistakes, doing a "so-so" guide, etc. insulting? More precisely, to defend your point, you claim that it's "like" insulting everyone and saying that Stephano and Nestea are wrong and stupid.This is quite strange: what do you mean by it's "like": is he insulting or not insulting?

Go read the OP: actually, the guy didn't came with an arrogant posture where he claimed to be better than everyone else, he just said that "it worked for him", and he wanted to share his ideas. What's wrong with that? The worst thing that can happen is that he is actually wrong, in which case you or anyone else can demonstrate it. I don't see where you can find insults in there.

You are just assuming way too much about OP, and such deformation of reality is in itself quite problematic, especially when you claim to know the truth. (But i guess this is the great lesson of how the one who always claims to know the truth ends up lying, as he cannot accept critique).

On May 28 2012 20:16 Decendos wrote:


well...the pool with this build finishes some seconds after 14 pool. you have to pull drones in both ways but here you have the advantage of having creep, 2 queens + a spine if needed.

On May 28 2012 21:02 Decendos wrote:
anybody got some benchmarks for the 8:00 timing while going stephano build (6:00 double gas etc.) of 14/15 pool --> pylon block natural:

- 4 lings + queen and take natural, then 3rd

- take 3rd instead

would be interesting to see which supply stephano etc. can reach with 3 queen, 4 lings and pure drones. i think the 75+ supply the top zergs reach is always after 14p 16h where P didnt block.

On May 28 2012 21:16 zerglingrodeo wrote:


The question is what kind of standards we want to support for an OP in the Strategy forum. If we want people who say "check out this crazy new thing I do that works in Diamond! I have no idea how it compares to real pro builds!" then there is no problem with the OP. However, it looks like Belial is someone who wants to stand up for higher standards. While he might be somewhat abrasive, it makes sense to me that someone who puts a lot of work into a quality Strategy forum would be dismayed by an OP like this one.

On May 28 2012 21:21 Jombozeus wrote:


This guys Top 40 GM...

Just because he doesn't give a justification doesn't mean he doesn't know what hes talking about.

On May 28 2012 14:54 Belial88 wrote:
^ What testing are you doing? It's not exactly 'stephano style' if you aren't taking a third. Are you maxing off 2 base at 11:15? Are you getting lair, speed before or after lair? Evo chamber?

On May 28 2012 20:24 Macpo wrote:


Well, it's precisely what I want to underline: why would you consider making ungrounded assumptions, mistakes, doing a "so-so" guide, etc. insulting? More precisely, to defend your point, you claim that it's "like" insulting everyone and saying that Stephano and Nestea are wrong and stupid.This is quite strange: what do you mean by it's "like": is he insulting or not insulting?

Go read the OP: actually, the guy didn't came with an arrogant posture where he claimed to be better than everyone else, he just said that "it worked for him", and he wanted to share his ideas. What's wrong with that? The worst thing that can happen is that he is actually wrong, in which case you or anyone else can demonstrate it. I don't see where you can find insults in there.

You are just assuming way too much about OP, and such deformation of reality is in itself quite problematic, especially when you claim to know the truth. (But i guess this is the great lesson of how the one who always claims to know the truth ends up lying, as he cannot accept critique).

On May 29 2012 00:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
The opening poster haven't given out a replay that will verify your drone counts, which is what some people are focusing on, nor is it "safer" that a 14pool.

Here is a replay of a ladder game.
http://drop.sc/158539

Assuming that your counts are real (you haven't placed any replay as of yet verifying your drone count), here is what Snute has at 6mins when opening with Pool first, without making pure drones.

2 Lings, 36 Drones, 3 Hatches completed, and 3 Queens completed.

This is in stark contrast to 40 drones (probably because you didn't make any lings) and one less hatchery, and being far less safer vs cannons.

The two main points of the opening post which he has highlighted in bold is demonstratable false. It is certainly less safe than pool first. 2 Drones more at 6mins (including the lost lings as drone) isn't much more considering that the third hatch would be kicking in by the 7th minute. Compared to pool first 3 hatch, as opposed to the hatch built just under 6 mins, it is very lacking in drones and unsafe.

On May 28 2012 21:31 Macpo wrote:


Well... I completely agree about the high standard expectations, as this is precisely why I criticize certain interventions which in my opinion lower the actual Strategy forum quality standards by replacing rational argumentation by overstatements and aggressive postures. Having said that, Belial's objection was different: he considered the OP "kind of insulting". Low standard and being insulting are two distinct things, as far as I am concerned. This is what I was adressing in my previous post.

On May 29 2012 00:32 lhr0909 wrote:


The OP already said that the build is safer against a pylon block at the bottom ramp. And he clarified that this build is more of a 2 base build because the third base is significantly later than 14p16h

On May 28 2012 20:16 Decendos wrote:


well...the pool with this build finishes some seconds after 14 pool. you have to pull drones in both ways but here you have the advantage of having creep, 2 queens + a spine if needed.

On May 29 2012 03:22 flaxxen wrote:
Everything is better with a 13 pool 19 hatch (if blocked it will be down at 21). Your build just stacks loads and loads of lavae.

Hey oboeman what did you use to test the builds? How were you able to get the benchmarks for all those times so easily

On May 29 2012 00:51 Kasu wrote:

Right, and several other posters said that it isn't safer against pylon blocks because the pool is even later than standard 14pool, except they actually tested it. This is why you should think about what is being said rather than blindly accept it.

On May 29 2012 07:26 lhr0909 wrote:


Not sure how you can be "safe" if you are completely walled in by pylons, cannons and gateways on 1 base whereas you are able to make units/ drones from both sides of the wall and be able to take it down in time.

Not sure how you can be "safe" if you are completely walled in by pylons, cannons and gateways on 1 base whereas you are able to make units/ drones from both sides of the wall and be able to take it down in time.

User was warned for crimes against the English language

On May 29 2012 11:37 Entirety wrote:
Holy crap, Belial88, the arrogance and antagonism exuding from your post is incredible.

I tried this build out and I don't think it's entirely terrible. The third base is problematic - that's why I tried 2 base builds with it such as 2 base muta, 2 base roach-hydra all-in, 2 base nydus, etc. While I won't be using this build normally, I think it is worth looking into further.

On May 29 2012 07:35 Oboeman wrote:


you have a hatchery on the other side but you have no income and are massively supply blocked so the cannons will finish and kill your expansion anyway.

On May 29 2012 10:56 Belial88 wrote:
zerglingrodeo and kasu, thanks. You are spot on.



Can you please link your sc2ranks profile? Your comments just show an absurd understanding of the game.

What are you going to make? Are you not understanding anything anyone is posting in here? The OP's pool timing is LATER than a standard 15 pool first build, and his hatch pops late as well. The cannon will already be finished when the hatch pops. So you will have 1 cannon already up (not to mention if Toss decides to dedicate more and has 5 more halfway done at this time), and you can only morph drones. Toss will surely put down a 2nd cannon when he sees you keep your hatch. So you can morph 1 drone when 1 cannon, if not 2, if not 5, are already done. Eventually, you might be able to make 2 lings! Against a single cannon already finished!

Even if you want to refuse to believe any of this, you could at least accept that this build will put you behind against a cannon rush.

Feel free to msg me on b.net, or you know, actually test this. The amount of stuff you say that is just outright wrong is amazing. You clearly have not tested this build, but myself and Oboeman have already put more testing into this build than you or the OP has.

And that's what is so damn insulting. We've done the testing on this build, and everyone else high level in the world has tested for themselves things like 12 hatches and 11 pools (Fruitdealer used to do a build very similar to this in the first season of GSL. Look it up, in his games on steppes of war, ZvP, vs hongun). But no, apparently you know better, even though there are very clear problems with this build that you refuse to accept.

I really can't believe you said what you said. You think morphing drones on both sides of 2 cannons being up is going to do anything, or even morphing 6 lings? Not to mention you are way behind a Toss who's been mining with 17+ probes this entire time.

User was warned for tone of this post and previous posts

On May 30 2012 01:15 lhr0909 wrote:

Hi Belial88,

If you care to take the time to watch the replay, this is how I do it:

http://drop.sc/188317

Oh and here is the thing: unless I am facing a player on ladder who is going for 7 pylon 8 forge and put down the wall-in and cannons, i mean, who still preemptively makes cannons these days? I think even for a 14 forge, the creep will expand so they cannot put down the cannons in the correct spot on time. Maybe you should really try this build and be surprised how many people around the world actually will fall for this (except the protoss players who read this thread for sure lol)

I am thinking this is more like a build to force your opponent to cannon wall you.

Oh and more:

I don't really care what you said about the build is bad because you never tested it yourself and just pour out subjective comments anyways, so you might want to actually give me some replays and saying how this build is bad.

And more:
I won't have a huge boner towards this build, I just think this build would make playing zerg fun because I believe everybody is already sick of playing the same opening over and over again. Think about how many different openings terrans and protoss can do. Sometimes I just feel so sad that zerg has to open the same build over and over again This build definitely has its potential not just on ladder, maybe even in a bo3, bo5 settings, because you are trying to force your opponent to react to what you do, even though the best reaction is to not do anything

On May 30 2012 01:15 lhr0909 wrote:
I don't really care what you said about the build is bad because you never tested it yourself and just pour out subjective comments anyways, so you might want to actually give me some replays and saying how this build is bad.

4:00: 17 drones vs 17 drones
4:30: 20 drones vs 20 drones
5:00: 24 drones vs 20 drones
5:30: 31 drones vs 26 drones

7:30: 48 drones vs 55 drones
8:00: 63 drones vs 55 drones
8:30: 71 drones vs 66 drones
Last edit: 2012-05-31 22:28:27

On June 02 2012 07:47 Belial88 wrote:
yea you took your third ridiculously late with that bananas build (as what happens with the build). What was your third timing with the standard build, because standard third timing these days is 22-26, historically it's been 18-32. But watch suhosin vs slayerstoss on whirlwind, you'll see that a direct result of planting the hatch as late as 38 costs you about 10 supply by the 8:00 mark.

Your results of both 62 and 55 are actually really low for the 8:00 mark (if they are supply). I'm guessing you didn't macro correctly, in either of the games, which led to skewed results for both of the builds. But if that's actually the worker counts, and not supply, that would be really impressive, as like I said, at 8:00 people tend to have only about 50 workers out, and then like 10+ more actually morphing. I don't think 62 drones actually out is even possible at the 8:00 mark, and 55 is probably the limit of how many workers you can actually have out by then (as in pros reach this number, so unless you are a higher level player, I have some doubts - because generally even lower masters players struggle to pull off a basic macro build order in the unit tester).

So it's all very confusing what you are saying.

On June 02 2012 08:05 rancidmeat wrote:




Sorry about that

I should have said that it is in a controlled environment where I made nothing but drones. Lings would need to be made for each case if a hatchery was blocked or if zealot pressure was incoming. These are the correct drone timings. The early second queen makes up for the later hatchery. This does not refer to the supply because it does not account for queens, only workers. The reason they surpass each other is because of the way that queens work.

I'm sorry that it was confusing, but it is very true, and I am about 900-1000 masters.

This only refers to hatched drones, drones in eggs are discounted, even if they are very close to finished.

On June 02 2012 09:30 Jombozeus wrote:


I don't main zerg anymore, but you should certainly have more than 55 supply of drones at the 8 minute mark if all you made is drones.

http://drop.sc/189894

With 14pool/16hatch, and no real build order since I don't play zerg, I reached 67 pure drones at 8 minutes.Everything mining, appropriate upgrades/buildings. 13 roaches making and enough gas for speed/+1 missile at 8:50.

On June 02 2012 09:40 rancidmeat wrote:



I also did the build though, making gasses, lair, roach warren, etc when necessary.

I plan to post replays on monday with the best macro I can dish out (which is pretty damn good) to show the timings. Plus it will go with the build I originally posted.

On June 02 2012 09:41 Jombozeus wrote:


Did you check the replay? So did I. Watch it, please!

Either something horribly different from our definitions of pure drones or standard building timings, or you just need to work on getting your drones bro.

On June 02 2012 10:59 rancidmeat wrote:


Sorry, I can't watch until monday, . I will watch it though, and I plan to do a redone version where I am more focused because I did that last minute. I wasn't trying to be extremely accurate at the time, just to make a 3 hatch build out of the bananas build where you come out almost exactly the same.

The idea is to not get your hatch blocked. in a real game you would need to patrol at the bottom of your ramp by 2:20 and you would also need to build zerglings. I just don't particularly like 2 hatch builds but I liked the idea of an uncontested natural so I wanted to make it a build.

Regardless, you either come out even, a little ahead, or a little behind. I'd expect to be cannon rushed a lot during this build so it is only good if you are good at dealing with cannon rushes, though the early creep from the hatch should help too I think.

I will recheck the drone counts on monday and watch your replays too, I'm sorry that I can't do it sooner.

On June 02 2012 07:47 Belial88 wrote:
yea you took your third ridiculously late with that bananas build (as what happens with the build). What was your third timing with the standard build, because standard third timing these days is 22-26, historically it's been 18-32. But watch suhosin vs slayerstoss on whirlwind, you'll see that a direct result of planting the hatch as late as 38 costs you about 10 supply by the 8:00 mark.

Your results of both 62 and 55 are actually really low for the 8:00 mark (if they are supply). I'm guessing you didn't macro correctly, in either of the games, which led to skewed results for both of the builds. But if that's actually the worker counts, and not supply, that would be really impressive, as like I said, at 8:00 people tend to have only about 50 workers out, and then like 10+ more actually morphing. I don't think 62 drones actually out is even possible at the 8:00 mark, and 55 is probably the limit of how many workers you can actually have out by then (as in pros reach this number, so unless you are a higher level player, I have some doubts - because generally even lower masters players struggle to pull off a basic macro build order in the unit tester).

So it's all very confusing what you are saying.

On June 02 2012 11:13 Jombozeus wrote:


Man, you are not reading my arguments. This build has a 0% survival rate against a cannon rush. A cannon rush pylon comes down when you only have 11 drones, and you have no second overlord so you have to send down 1 drone and patrol your ramp, 11 drones.

When his first pylon comes up, you have to bring 4 more drones, 2 on each side of the pylon and 1 to chase the probe. At this point the probe will make more pylons and you will need to bring around 8 drones to defend a proper cannon rush. This leaves you with 3 drones mining. By the time your 12hatch finishes, you will have to make 2 lings and a queen and have them out before drones can go back to work, so you will stay on 3drone mining for at least 2 ingame minutes.

I tried this with LGTop, whos high GM, and he came out of the cannon rush with 20 probes and a nexus after he cancels his cannons and lets the 2 pylons die, while I come out with 4 lings, 1 queen, and 11 drones. At this point he has to cut probes for 10 seconds to get a cannon up so my 4 lings don't slip into his main, so when the macrogame transition is complete, he has 20 drones and I have 13 drones and a queen and 4 lings. At the 10 minute mark, after pure droning (my macro is better than yours according to our "tests") I had 46 drones to 55 probes, since getting a 3rd at a proper timing is impossible.

I held off the cannon rush with perfect control (he sucks with protoss) and I was infinitely behind. The truth is that you cannot have an economy with this build when anyone tries to cannon rush you.

On June 02 2012 12:48 rancidmeat wrote:



You either aren't very smart or you simply like to feel better than everyone. First of all, this has not been an argument, I have not disagreed with anything you said. Secondly, this is the first time you mentioned the cannon rush so no, I didn't read your non-existing argument on that.

You need to bring 3 drones down to help kill a cannon, 4 more if he builds a second cannon. I agree that it will be difficult to stop, maybe even impossible, but the build was just made recently and nobody has gotten enough chances (20-30) to truly decide whether or not this is true. 1 example does not prove to me anything, I'd like to try it a couple of times before banishing it forever.

The third timing of this build comes out roughly around 5:30 un cannoned, but it would have to be put a little further back, i would suppose (again I have a lack of trying the build). The third would still need to be made no later than 6:00 in the case of a cannon rush.

I'm sorry if you think I am disagreeing with you, but truth be told, I have only done this build enough to find the third timing and after that, I tacked on the rest of my normal ZvP build (15 pool, 16 hatch). I'm going to need more time before knowing if it is actually any good or not. I don't even know if a 9 scout gets to the hatch in time to block it.

I would like to ask you to read the full conversation before replying to this, otherwise I am not interested in reading anything else you have to say as all you have done is insult me and put yourself on a pedestal (perhaps deserved, perhaps not). Thank you for trying the build though, I do appreciate it and I'll get back to you about the drone timings on monday, though I probably still won't have the cannons fully figured out.

On June 02 2012 14:11 michaelhasanalias wrote:
jombozeus you can block it with 9 scout on some maps.

Everyone plays games but no one posts replays, really bothers me.

It's easy to tell a build is shit when it gives you nothing and sacs econ, but it'd be even easier if people would just post replays.

Instead there is just gold v master theorycrafting and no replays.

On June 02 2012 14:26 Jombozeus wrote:


http://drop.sc/189967

Here, I missed first 6 seconds in this replay because I was lag spiking at the start.

Regardless, those 6 seconds wouldn't've meant anything considering I killed his aggression before my pool popped. I also lie, I couldn't even make a queen (would've had maybe 30 more minerals with the 6 seconds?)

He also lost a probe because LGTop sucks at protoss.

I had pretty much the perfect response and even sent drones back as soon as aggression stopped.

Even sneaked some lings into his base after.

No dice, still massively behind.