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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On April 29 2012 07:26 VisceraEyes wrote: Anyone who I feel lies in round A will not get my vote to survive round B. SO LET IT BE WRITTEN!!! I suspect this is going to turn into a lie.  Anyway, this should be a very interesting game, certainly looking forward to this to start... | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On April 30 2012 05:26 Palmar wrote: I need a volunteer to read the OP and figure out the rules for me so I don't have to. No need, I already broke the system, gg. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On April 30 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote: One thing I was thinking is, for instance to scumhunt normally this round, and have EVERYBODY claim what their answer will be in the thread (YES or NO) We force the "scummy" players to vote for the mayority, and the most townie ones vote for the minority to save them from Round B. And how would that be useful? As nice as it would to believe people will vote for something co-operatively in a game of this size, it just won't happen. If you somehow manage to gather and confirm all townies, and ensure they vote in a certain pattern, that still enables scum to do whatever they want, and even if they outed themselves, they may still be able to get in the minority constantly. It's just not gonna work in a game where votes are hidden until the results. (Where it will be obvious who voted for what) I'm not expecting to see gamebreaking strategies (especially ensuring as making them work flawlessly is quite hard), so please concentrate on finding the scum instead of trying to come up with some epic plan. And don't get greedy. If we find someone that we are sure to be scum, then do everything possible to get that person killed or lynched. If we try to get greedy and be smartasses and try to lynch three scum at once, it'll most likely bite ourselves in the ass. Regarding PMs... anyone can PM me and say/ask anything they want, but I promise nothing to no-one as of yet. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On April 30 2012 13:11 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Well, I agree with gonzaw's statement that a strategy for Round A is also necessary. Scum are able to coordinate their votes, so they can always split themselves so that only half end up in the lynch pool ever if we let people just do whatever. So, we need some kind of strategy to make sure that we can get a decent amount of scummy people in the majority, that we can actually hold people to it, and that's feasible. Obviously, an optimal strategy for lynch choice would be for every person to vote the same way. Then, everyone makes it into Phase B, and no one is safe from being able to be lynched. This makes Phase B more complicated, but I think it's worth it for the choice. What do people think? Results are revealed afterwards, so we should know if someone's lying and made it into the minority. Anyone who does, we can lynch. I don't see a reason townies need to worry about being immune to lynch this early in the game. Perhaps in the later stages, where it's feasible scum rig the votes to kill them, but not now. If someone tries that now, we'll know about the ninja bandwagon, because again, the results are revealed. We should try to force scum to play by our rules. They'll be a lot more careful, because there's two scum teams, so I don't see them trying anything too ballsy. Any disadvantage going into the late-game will translate into the other scum-team having more influence than them. Scum can do whatever they want, as far as I know. Of course it may be possible that there is some sort of vote-controlling/eliminating power-role, but we should not speculate about the setup and concentrate on working what we have. We will not be able to direct scum onto a certain vote unless we manage to fool them of town's intentions, which won't be easy. The thing is, most likely the scum will be splitting their vote to some extent to lessen their lynch candidates. Also, are you joking about the optimal strategy? I don't really hope you are even imagining that to happen. Let's assume some fairy-tale scenarios about your "optimal strategy". 1) Everyone votes for the same option -> Everyone is able to be lynched (What are you trying to gain by this? The town can also benefit from not being lynched.) 2) The majority votes for the same option -> Well, what are you going to do about those who didn't? They are safe from lynch, and unless you possess a KP role you won't be able to do anything about it, but have to wait for the next day and try to manipulate votes in such a way that the person will end up in a majority. 3) Clusterfuck of votes on both options -> Most likely to happen Considering 2), it is highly unlikely that only scum would try to achieve the minority. I do not see it beneficial at start, even for a townie, to try and gain trust by "voting with the majority". I just don't see it happening, and in the case all townies happened to vote for the majority, then there's just a huge bunch of townies (And maybe a scum or two), in line for getting lynched. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On April 30 2012 20:55 syllogism wrote: Can you clarify what you mean by this? You don't promise to answer questions in private or what kind of promises are you exactly talking about here? I mean exactly what I said. I promise nothing to no-one as of that moment. Try and gain my trust if you want such to happen. I've caught up on the thread. I will not be agreeing with this whole "Palmar for King"-thingy. I am already suspicious of a few people. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On May 01 2012 06:17 syllogism wrote: Well that is a completely pointless statement then but okay Who are you suspicious of and why? Why did you find it important to point out you have suspicions and then didn't bother to name any? At the moment I am afraid to tell you I have no reason to share my reads with you. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On May 01 2012 06:58 VisceraEyes wrote: I wanna learn how to scumhunt without peoples' reads! X( I still new at this Thou shall empty your mind and look at each post objectively, find the hidden connections between them, or the lack of aforementioned. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On May 01 2012 07:41 Radfield wrote: Also, to everyone talking about how scum will just blatantly hop onto the minority side of any plan, that's silly. The whole goal of the game is to figure out who the mafia are. Honestly, killing mafia is not going to be a problem. Imagine this, Protactinum publicly proclaims all the members of one team. Do you honestly think we'll struggle to get them killed? It might not happen all at once, but they'd be dead pretty quick. Likewise, if we all co-operate and form a list of likely townies, then put said townies on into the minority, scum are unable to just cross the line en masse. Townies should have no fear of getting lynched. Even if you are worried about being on the chopping block, it's far better for the town as a whole for you to just vote with the majority and try to defend yourself instead of jumping to the minority. Jumping ship only ensures that you will waste our vig shots. Shots we will undoubtedly need. We're a team, lets act like one. The problem with having so many experienced players is that everyone wants to measure their penis, and no one wants to back down. I guarantee this game is designed to punish poor play. Over-reliance on voting schemes, mass claims, comparing role names, role=alignment, low activity, refusal to co-operate, etc. That doesn't mean none of those things can be helpful, we simply need to keep it in mind. You should never take killing mafia for granted. The more mistakes you make, the harder it becomes. That's why I wrote what I wrote as a reminder, I've seen such happen way too many times. On May 01 2012 07:41 Radfield wrote: Why are you writing things that are blatantly obvious? Could be said about your post also. Fact is, what someone considers obvious may not be obvious to everyone. It's better to bring it out and make sure everyone gets it, rather than assume everyone knows. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On May 01 2012 08:00 Katina wrote: The mafia team will always be voting in the 2 to 1 method. Most likely, yes. Always, no. I can very well see all 3 mafia members voting for the same option, especially in the early game. A vote or two from a few random townies that have been deceived in PM-Land (or even worse, publically in thread), tadah. No worries. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On May 01 2012 08:01 prplhz wrote: Ace likes the hypothetical "what if everybody is an asshole?", well then this game is lost already now isn't it? Please don't tell me you're saying you don't know how to make reads on assholes? :p | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On May 01 2012 08:07 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm against anyone "telling" me who should be in the minority. Round A has a built in randomization factor in the votes being revealed after the deadline - in this way it's impossible for scum and town alike to just "jump into the minority". I feel like everyone should just honestly answer their interpretation of the question and then we'll decide out of the minority that's created who gets to live and die come Phase B. In fact, FUCK IT I'M KING NOW! ![[image loading]](http://www.boomtron.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/wow-arthas2.jpg) Your King Hereby Decrees:
That's....that's it. Do it. And town will PROFIT! It will allow us much more time for finding scum every day (because there's no talk in Phase A about who should be "king" or who should be "in the minority" or whatever the fuck. We can spend our time looking for scum...by SCUMHUNTING! :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FOR THE TOWN!!!!! I approve. Make me prince will you? | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On May 01 2012 08:10 gonzaw wrote:Cephiro: Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034&user=183812 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=5#84 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=5#87 I found this odd, because you started very aggresively. There were some good plans (mine) floating around, and you behemently opposed them. The point is that you didn't come up with any of your own or try to generate any other discussion. You inserted doubt into plans and just bickered about them, you didn't come up with content of your own. Well, maybe honestly you thought those plans were bad, so that in itself wouldn't bother me. However, you post this: You are giving the usual "People stop discussing policy lynches/plans/shit and start finding scum!", yet I don't see you following your own advice. When someone asked you for your reads, you said "At the moment I am afraid to tell you I have no reason to share my reads with you.". What? You said we should try and find scum, but you don't want to contribute your reads? You started very aggressive and "keen" to find scum, but you were inactive for some time later and when you came back you didn't put any effort into doing so. I know how you can play as town Cephiro, I observed Death Factory and you were contributing and making plans like crazy. Being this aggresive and indifferent to plans is unlike you. I honestly think all the plan discussion in D1 has been stupid. I do not see people agreeing in as quickly as 24-48 hours, and it serves as a great cloak for scum, as it derails the conversation to people jabbing at each other about an optimal way of trying to game the game with voting strategies, instead of hunting the scum. Lets say someone finally came up with a plan that everyone magically agreed on. Now, what will you do with it if you've found no scum? Just because I did not publicly share my reads with syllo does mean I haven't done it with anyone else. PM Land is a wonderful place to be in. If I don't trust syllo, why should I give him my reads? And making up false reads in the threads is just something that someone would point out as an contradiction by PMs later, and then bad townies would be jumping all over the fact and be distracted from the actual work that needs to be done. As I've said a trillion times before, do not try to metagame me. If you try, you've already lost. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On May 01 2012 08:20 prplhz wrote: Who said anything about it being determined by 1 player? It's always been Palmar, syllogism and Radfield and I doubt anybody would complain if you wanted Foolishness in there instead or whoever really. What does "give up their individual brilliance" even mean? So, if your way of playing TL Mafia is sheeping Palmar, syllo and Radfield whenever they are in the game, cool. Mine isn't. On May 01 2012 08:20 Katina wrote: There's no reason for Mafia to take that chance. You really think they can decieve people in PM's like that? Have you been deceived in PMs like that? People are flipping coins to decide votes, and I doubt anyone is actually listening to Palmar. Three votes for the same option is to obviously, especially so early where people are extra paranoid. They would try to leave a little of a connection as possible to each other. With that said, there is no reason mafia would take that chance. Thus we can always expect the 2-1 split. Then it's just a matter of looking at who is voting for whom and matching people up. Lets assume there are gullible players like you that "know" there is a 2-1 split coming. Lets assume that the mafia may take a very minor early risk, and all vote themselves to the majority to look better in the long run. Then these gullible players that are sure of the 2-1 split have already been mislead. Win. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On May 01 2012 08:28 gonzaw wrote: So why not create discussion about something else? Why not contribute in other manners? Why not doing anything productive other than bickering against every single plan being discussed and then disappearing from the face of the earth? Also like I said, I don't see you being this "opposed" to plans. I read Death Factory and you were making plans all over the place. I don't believe you when you say "I honestly think all D1 plan discussions are stupid". Just because I am not doing something productive in your opinion, _in the thread_, does not mean I wouldn't actually be doing productive stuff. Everything I do has a reason. As for "disappearing from the face of earth", as much as I like mafia games, even I have a life to live. I am not opposed to plans if they are good. So far I don't like what I see, and I have no game-breaking plan to offer either. Just because I was doing some "super-mega-epic-plan" in an earlier game does not mean I would do it in this game. Just stop trying to metagame, you are shooting yourself in the head. Whatever I have done in any games before does in no way relate to what I do now. I do not say that "All D1 plan discussions are stupid", but that statement is true to my opinion when we are talking about the D1 of this game in this thread. On May 01 2012 08:28 gonzaw wrote: How about BOTH making a plan and finding scum? I'm trying to find scum and I think I found 2, so how can you tell me I'm doing otherwise? You can't seriously oppose plans because you think nobody will find scum. The plans come 2nd in finding scum, they've always been, so you can't seriously use that to justify your hatred against plans. I have no hatred against plans, you are just overthinking and confirmation biasing your own thoughts. You think you found 2 scum, well good for you. Now come up with enough evidence so that the town believes you, and then we'll see if we can get them killed? On May 01 2012 08:28 gonzaw wrote: You should give reads in the thread. You may not trust syllo, but surely you trust all townies right? If you post your reads in the thread you are 100% guaranteed THAT ALL TOWNIES WILL READ THEM. Even so, if you are doing this all in PM land, why did you say before that you will only use PMs to answer questions and stuff? Why would you make up "false reads" in the thread? Wut? I did not say I will use PMs to only answer questions, you've misunderstood once again. Also, I just explained the thing about false reads. Read it again. Basically: If I have information that I do not scum want to know, why on earth should I make it public for them? I'll gladly share my reads which do not involve information scum can benefit about in such a manner, but certain things are best kept secret, or shared with only a few chosen ones. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On May 01 2012 08:41 Ace wrote: You gonna let him just talk to you like that? If it was me there is no way that would happen. Stand up for yourself. Does it look like I am not replying to him? I stand by what I said. And as I already explained to him via PM, he is wasting his time on me at the moment. Most of his case is purely out of metagame, which is useless. It just won't do. I feel like I've explained anything I needed to, if you disagree, feel free to continue in thread or via PM, I am fine with either. Funny that you talk about standing for oneself when your play in-thread so far does not look much more impressive either. But I have my beliefs of why you are doing what you are doing, which is why I do not see a reason to pressure you about it, yet. If you want to pressure me for somewhat the same to an lesser extent, feel free to. I am always ready to defend myself and improve my play. Just not necessarily to fit the format of play you consider optimal. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On May 01 2012 08:51 Ace wrote: I don't need to stand up for myself though - people know I'm invincible to being lynched. #FinalBossStatus Doesn't matter, guns still exist... they do the job quite well too. :p | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On May 01 2012 08:58 gonzaw wrote: Yeah, I think you are not doing anything productive in the thread, why wouldn't you? I don't know what "reasons" you are talking about, how am I supposed to believe you? What "reasons" are they? If you want me to stop "wasting my time" (thing from PM), then why don't you post in the thread something productive? You are just telling me "I'm doing an awesome pro-town job in PM land, you just have to believe me. Oh I won't do shit in the thread, but believe me I'm dominating the game in PM-Land *wink* *wink*" How the fuck am I supposed to believe you? Or even if that was true (that you are PMing with people and shit), I still won't know what you are doing, so I still won't know if what you are doing is pushing a scum agenda or not. Are you scum trying to make me look bad or are you just that thickheaded? If you want me to be more productive in-thread, then how about you stop making these horrible cases I have to keep responding to. I'll post something productive when I think it is needed. I'm not gonna start posting fluff-productive crap just for the sake of making you smile. So where have I claimed I am dominating the game in PM-Land? You keep exaggerating my claims all the time on purpose, either you are unconciously using confirmation bias to convince yourself you are right, or then you are just scum doing it on purpose. If you need to know what I'm doing in PM-Land, then ASK instead of crying aloud in the thread. Or maybe you could try to earn my trust and I could reply you like anyone else I trust. Doesn't sound that hard no? For all you know I am not necessarily even pushing an agenda, but only sharing opinions and reads, yet you make it look like I am pushing for some epic plan via PMs? On May 01 2012 08:58 gonzaw wrote: I made a post pointing out the evidence I found. The only way to get scum killed is for them to be in the majority, and have nobody else vote for them. I want people to post their opinions on what I posted, and let them decide if they will vote for you/chaoser or not. If they don't, then yes I'm "trying to get them killed". That's good. Now just think a bit more before you post, at the current state your cases are in my opinion easily scrubbed off, which is something you don't want to happen, whether you are town or a scum making a fake case on a townie. So tell me how are you going to ensure you get the scum in the majority? And then ensure no-one votes them? On May 01 2012 08:58 gonzaw wrote: So let me get this straight: The only way to lynch scum, is to have other townies not vote for them in Round B The only way other townies won't vote for them in Round B is if they know they are scum The only way they will know they are scum is if you post your scumread in the thread and post a convincing case against them Reciprocally, if you don't post your scumreads in the thread you won't be able to get scum lynched. So please, post your scumreads, thoughts about chaoser and other players. Bolded is false, although it is one of the best methods for doing so. I will share my reads when I feel it contributes to the thread. At the moment I do not possess a completely pre-made case on anyone, and I'm not currently making one either. If you want to hear very vague opinions about why I think someone is leaning a certain way, sure. Or if you want me to make some super-complex-game-saving theory which busts all 6 scum to you right now, then you're best off looking elsewhere. No-one does such with certainty at this stage of the game. On May 01 2012 08:58 gonzaw wrote: Why am I best off "dropping it"? Why do you want me to "concentrate on others"? If I think you are scum, why would I concentrate on somebody else? By the same reasoning, I concentrate on someone else, and that player will tell me to "concentrate on someone else" as well. Dude, wtf is that all about? If there is some "hidden" info you have that will destroy the world if revealed, then I don't care don't post it. But contribute, post reads, thoughts, care about the game in the thread if you are town; if not you'll only make me tunnel you more. Tunneling in any case is retarded and just makes you look bad. Concentrated pressure while still being open for other options however is not. You can keep tunnelling me on all you want, but all you are doing is waste time of at least one townie effectively. I like how you keep up the pressure, but even if I was scum your current case is not enough, or then I've overestimated the level of our co-players. You're best of dropping it because you are currently hardcore tunneling an useful townie. Why do you think I am open and even giving you tips of making a better case on me later if I was mafia? Why do you bring up some "hidden" info shit up again? Especially about anything that would destroy the world? Are you trying to make your post look more dramatic on purpose? Now, are you finally done and ready to move to something useful, or are you going to keep tunneling? | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On May 01 2012 09:27 Ace wrote: pro shit. I would have come up with this an hour from now so I'll just take credit for this. If you want, you can just copypaste all my arguments if gonzaw starts pressuring you and take credit for that too. Saves you a lot of effort that would be wasted otherwise. | ||
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