Mr. Wiggles Mini Mafia I

On December 23 2011 13:35 sephirotharg wrote:
For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun

As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town.

And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary.

With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch?

On December 24 2011 03:31 sephirotharg wrote:


That's all well and good - I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say here. In general, lurking isn't optimal play, not for town at any rate.

That said, you didn't actually provide any reason to vote for me here. You responded to my post, but gave no rationale as to why you placed your vote on me. Please do everyone the favor of explaining your actions.

On December 24 2011 03:56 sephirotharg wrote:
RE: Giygas

This is a game of circles within circles son, and you'd best step to that right quick.

Weird accent aside, I'm merely stating that I find you, Dirkzor, and Shraft rather suspicious for voting so early and pushing hard. I think it's rather obvious why I wrote "the thing about lurking" - to generate some discussion, allowing scum to reveal themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the three of you flips red - but we'll see.

On December 24 2011 07:16 sephirotharg wrote:
A couple of questions:

For voting, need we specifically unvote? Or, if we merely vote for a different person, is it taken for granted that we unvoted the original vote?

Can the host/co-host please keep the player list up to date? I refer to it often, and it would be nice to have the reminder that hyshes has replaced Mattchew, for example.

And as a placeholder: ##Vote sephirotharg

On December 23 2011 23:47 Dirkzor wrote:
Also, it's been 12 hours since we started and several people have yet to post.

Mattchewhyshes
Shraft
minus_human (yeah one post saying you would be back in a few hours...)
EchelonTee
jaybrundage

Gogo!

We need more activity if we want to find scum. Otherwise it will be chaos come a few hours before lynch time!

On December 24 2011 07:54 Cyber_Cheese wrote:

One last piece of policy:
Do not use 'ploys' or 'traps' to bait scum members. If you choose to disregard this, at minimum have fully thought it out. This involves but is not limited to being able to prove that only a scum member would walk into it, and that only a scum member would react the way that the person did. Make sure the pros outweigh the cons, and be ready to prove it.

Intentionally making your self look scummy is an example of a 'bad' ploy, because good townies should be calling you out.
That said, it did help me two things I want to point out so far:




1) He agrees policy lynches are bad, then doubles back and votes someone for potentially lurking later on in the game.
2) Calling attention to his inexperience.

FoS

On December 24 2011 08:08 Shraft wrote:


I believe that mods can see your edits, so they should be able to edit in the original message. I do however find it strange that you're re-reading your own posts and looking for contradictions. Why would you worry about some contradictive wording if you're town?

On December 24 2011 08:02 Shraft wrote:
I realised it because I saw a lock on his portrait. He made a /in-post you know.

On December 23 2011 23:39 Dirkzor wrote:


I bolded what i found strange. You already state that you will be lurking. Early in game you want people to feel its okay that you lurk. No Mr. I won't allow it!

Yes life gets in the way but you should make up for it when time permits. In that way people won't feel you are lurking if you have provided enough to talk about when you actually have the time. We all need to eat and sleep (work?) but if you don't carry your weight we don't need you.

##Vote sephirotharg

On December 24 2011 07:46 Dirkzor wrote:


I do feel I gave a reason, but since english isn't my first language I'll try again.

You are preemptivly excusing yourself for lurking. If people have the mindset that "Oh seph is lurking because thats what he does" you might try to get away with lurking later in the game. You could also point out later that you already said you would lurk. And I don't like that.

I would say that my vote wasn't intended to get you lynched. Just spur some discussion - which it did.



I did not find it obvious why you wrote it. It did start some discussion but only because I (and others) noticed how silly it was to write. I'll keep my vote on you for now for the lack of better choices...

On December 24 2011 00:15 Shraft wrote:
Also, I don't like that sephirotharg explains in his first that he "sometimes lurks". From my experience, most of the times when people make preemptive excuses, they're mafia. If he was a townie, he wouldn't worry about looking scummy later on if he had some IRL task that he needs to do. Furthermore, I don't like how he starts his post with "I'm not skilled, but it's still fun " simply because it's another preemptive measure.

On December 24 2011 02:17 Shraft wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I dislike sephirotharg's post. I am going to put my vote on him until I hear what he has to say.
##Vote sephirotharg

On December 24 2011 03:28 GiygaS wrote:
On Sephiroth (goddamn you were hard to beat in Kingdom Hearts 2 ), I think his post is definitely scummy, and I'm placing my FoS on him, but I am not lynching him yet. I want to see more than one post out of him to decide if I want to lynch him, as I don't believe one singular post should ever be the reason someone is lynched unless it is really extremely crazy. I'm looking forward to his defense and responses to future questions I ask of him

On December 24 2011 03:30 GiygaS wrote:
Ninja'd.

First of all, you expected to be voted on early? A town would never have that tendency.

You made a comment on your tendencies that just sparks excuses for yourself later on down the road, that's NOT pro-town.

Your last sentence didn't really "generate discussion", as that info was used as a footnote to other people's posts already.

##Vote sephirotharg

On December 24 2011 07:57 jaybrundage wrote:
Hey guys,

Sorry for not being to active. Internet is a commodity not always provided at my families house.

Ok lets get started. On policy lynches i think that there fine guidelines for how we should act and at the same time we should not follow them blindly and be the main reason we lynch someone.

Onto the good stuff. I think that the sephirotharg case is an interesting one. I do find his first post suspicious.

Trying to soft claim that lurking is ok is honestly pretty anti town. There is not reason to allow it or hint that it's acceptable or we gonna establish a bad town atmosphere. We need people to post what they think so we can get transparency.

I also fine the fact that sephirotharg posted a vote in himself really really weird to be honest. You know people think your suspicious if not just plain scum. Why would you put a vote on your self as a "placeholder" I honestly think its a distraction because why would mafia vote himself. But at the same time why would town vote for himself. Its a action that makes no sense. And when we are trying to get clarity why would you do that.

##Vote sephirotharg

Honestly you seem to want to be voting for the way your acting. Post a solid reason why we should not vote for you. Defend your self give people another case on someone you think is scummy. Something

On December 24 2011 08:19 Adam4167 wrote:
Sephirotharg:



Your first post comes across as timid and making excuses for further down the track. Saying “I’m not skilled” only serves to devalue your opinion, which is something that no townie wants to do. It is however something that mafia wants to do, if he plans on flying under the radar.

Your problem with lynching all liars is that it ‘narrows town focus’ too much. I disagree; someone caught lying to the town deserves all the scrutiny they get. I feel as though you are giving yourself an out in the event that you are caught lying later on.

Lastly, your point on lurkers is just flat out questionable. If you didn’t have the time to devote to playing this game, then why did you sign up? As you can tell, there are several people who missed out that want your spot. You finish by tacking on some napkin math about how many days we have before lylo, which is unnecessary on page 4 when the game started on page 3. Its entirely fluff, discussing worst-case scenario’s on the first day is pointless and only serves as a distraction from us doing our jobs, catching scum.





Your second and third posts are also causes for concern. In your second post you state “if anything, explicitly stating how I play is pro-town” in response to Shraft prodding you about your lurking intentions. Then in your next post, 6 minutes later, you say, “In general, lurking isn’t optimal play, not for town at any rate”. This just screams inconsistent. You claim your play style is pro-town, and then dismiss your play style as not optimal for town only 6 minutes later.



After demeaning Giygas by implying that you know something he doesn’t (interesting tactic for someone claiming to be “unskilled” in their first post), you claim that you think it’s ‘rather obvious’ as to why you are doing what you are doing. This just screams cop-out, you weren’t expecting all the heat you’re getting from your first few posts and now you are trying to rationalise it all as ‘generating discussion’.



In your last post (as of the time of writing this) you announce your intentions to return to lurking until near the deadline so ‘don’t expect much form me later on’, so… you don’t plan on defending yourself after all of this?

Your message to Shraft: “I’m glad I’m not the only one playing subtly” again just stinks of cop-out.


Now that the PBP is over, I’m just going to be honest. You claim unskilled and then act like you are ‘laying scum traps’ by being subtle. You announce your intentions to lurk, which does nothing to help this town. Your play has been nothing but anti-town since your first post. Don’t lurk, get back here and EXPLAIN your actions.



**And now that I’ve refreshed the thread, you’ve voted for yourself… AND edited “contradictory statements” out of one of your posts. I really wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but the shoe fits here.

##Vote sephirotharg

On December 24 2011 10:23 EchelonTee wrote:
Was sister's birthday yesterday and went out last night, time to get on this.

On seph:



Interesting how the seph is against policy lynches, as they could be easily used as a case on him. Self admitting lurking, then later claims he did this on purpose to see if it would arouse attention? Wat?

Note how this post really doesn't advance discussion, especially his last paragraph; it sounds longer he is being analytical with his reasoning but all he is doing is stating the obvious, that we need day 1 lynch is a forgone conclusion. However this I'd still early the day, seph gets more suspicious/weird as we move on.



Acting smug about doing something scummy, as though you're being actually a super sneaky pro-town? Seems like Betty poor backpedaling to me. Pointing out your negative tendencies just emphasizes that you are anti town, but trying to present it as though its no big deal. there is little reason to state this from a town perspective; you are just giving yourself an excuse for bad play and/or scum play. I and others already noted that you haven't generated any good discussion, so at this point your case is looking worse.



More backpedaling with the justification for lurking. Very faulty logic, trying to claim people who are calling out your poor behavior are suspicious... For noticing that you are highly suspicious? No one is buying it. At this point I suspect this was a terribad GF gambit.



This sealed the case for me. Seph's defenses have positively become shorter and shadier. If your were town, your would have no reason to fear being scrutinized for bullshit unless a) you're a terribad townie who is disrupting play, or b) scummy scum. There is little backing up what you have said. Voting for self = just plain weird, shows that you don't have a case on ANYONE else, if you had any way to defend yourself, your vote and your reasoning would be the way... And you have shown that you have no defense.

that, coupled with your defeatist mentality means you're either faulty townie with a lynch, or scum.

##Vote sephirotharg

On December 25 2011 14:42 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
Alright, that didn't go so well.
That mislynch was caused by both his actions, and a majority of us being relatively content with having found someone that looked scummy.
For as long as there are more scum out there than we can lynch per day, we should be scum hunting after we find a most likely candidate.

Of particular concern to me was sheep voting. A few people sheep voted, if I had to name names, they would be

Dirkzor
Shraft
Jaybrundage
Hyshes

The former two make the list because their initial votes were merely pressure. Their decision to be on the wagon at the end of the day is what matters most, and they borrowed logic from others.

At some point you're going to have to make reads on candidates other than the one you want to hang most, to make sure there is a majority if you think someone is scum. It's ok to not have new content in an analysis on a bandwagon you want to join. Scum only say so many scummy things each, it's not like every word is overflowing with scummyness, so at some point the amount of new things to contribute is going to run dry. As a townie, you have to recognise that your argument brings nothing new, and show in your post both who helped you and what logic of theirs convinced you.

The problems with reading people arise when townies get content with sheeping, and not doing any analysis. Again, if you're sheep voting, realise that you are, and show the logic that convinced you a person is scummy.

Dirkzor, Shraft, Jaybrundage and Hyshes: Tell us what convinced you to be on the lynch at the end of the day. More importantly, if you could kill somebody right now, who would it be and why?.

On December 25 2011 04:49 GiygaS wrote:
I just read seph's defense and I've skimmed throught his whole jaybrundage thing. I'm not sure on him, and not nearly as much as I am on Sephiroth. All I heard in the defense was literally "I'm not mafia, would mafia do this?" can of defense, let alone how many times he mentions "I'm town", or that he's just a noob with a bad strategy. If I read honestly from him one more time I'm going to scream D:

Reading through the rest now.

On December 25 2011 05:23 GiygaS wrote:
Yeah I believe jay in his defense, I'm sticking with seph.

On December 25 2011 06:49 GiygaS wrote:

A lot of the stuff on Jay is twisting words to say he's mafia. While the first evidence against you was indeed flavor text (the lurker thing), most of he stuff on you now is how you've reacted to things IMO. Meanwhile Jay only has weird flavor text twisting against him. BTW, I think the reason he hasn't scumhunted yet is there's pretty much him and you on the chopping block. That and I just get a tone of voice thing in yours that makes it seem you're way more concerned about getting lynched than Jay is, which I usually associate with a mafia.