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My goal
- Inspiring you on how to create a thread in the strategy forum
- Act as a "FAQ" to eliminate repetitive questions, hopefully improving this forum
- Fill up my Recommended threads thread
Naturally mistakes will be inevitable in my guide(s), I hope I will accomplish my goals regardless. If you notice any mistakes I will be glad to edit them out.
This thread's subject: standard TvZ build; 2rax into fast tech early game
Order of buildings
To give you a better idea on what I'm talking about. Depots and addons are almost always excluded. Nothing is listed after the point where you have the possibility to fork the build (where you have options).
depot
barracks
send a scout
barracks
academy
research stim
factory
engineering bay
starport
upgrade infantry weapons
upgrade marine range
The strategy: When does this work?
This is not what I consider a cheese strategy. That means you are making very few assumptions when using it, maybe even the minimum of assumptions. Unfortunately it also means you will not be scoring a lot of easy wins with it, because you are not willing to gamble.
In the unlikely event the zerg player doesn't fast expand, forget all about this strat.
If the zerg player has multiple easy exits from his natural expansion, making it impossible for you to contain lurkers with m&m, then this strat loses it's viability IMO as well.
On a map like LT where there is gas at the natural, containable lurkers (and a cliff that tempts zerg players into going mutalisks), this is a good build.
When you scout the zerg player you can take notice of wether he gets his third hatchery before starting his lair, or wether he gets his lair first. If he gets his lair quickly, this strategy can beat anything he does. IF he gets 3 hatcheries first, you can still beat multiple of his options but I don't recommend this strategy anymore as I think you have better options. (tank push, fast expansion, whatever)
The forks
When you head ot his base with your first m&m force, I recommend throwing your first scan at his natural. This gives you a look at his sunkens (or lack thereof hopefully!) and the highest chance of revealing his tech on the first scan, especially if you kept your scv alive in his main long enough. This is obviously where the forking comes in as he will most likely either have chosen muta or lurker tech. I'm only going to cover muta tech fully for now because that's the most common and most viable strategy on LT.
The muta fork:
move your containing m&m force back to base
send 2 scvs out to scout the other mains (unlikely that you'll get any out when he has mutas flying around your base)
control tower
science facility
science vessel
command center (if you're going to get it this early build it in the middle of your base so it can't be attacked easily by mutas, floating it over doesn't take long)
research irradiate
the Lurker fork:
continue to contain with the m&m force
send an scv out to scout, or one of your containing rines
machine shop
control tower
static defense (lurker first makes drops much more likely and you won't have vessels for detection)
get a dropship, tnaks and a cc
The tactics
I'm covering mutas only in this section for earlier mentioned reasons.
Starting where we left off, you are being harassed by mutalisks and are scouting the other gas expansions on the map. Don't build any turrets or bunkers, the thing I like most about this build is that you can avoid blowing money on static defense until you decide to move out again, which will be soon but not yet. Here are the most common situations:
1: One of your scvs sees he is already expanding to another main
Odds are very likely that he doesn't have lurkers yet. Throw a scan at his natural anyway. No sign of lurkers? Keep your cc where it is. It feels weird having a ready to lift cc in your base and voluntarily not using it, but that's what you want to do for now. He is most likely getting a lot of mutalisks.and you can't survive a muta/ling counterattack with this build if you expand already. Get a whole bunch of turrets around your cc and a bunker and another turret on your choke, and rally your barracks to your choke so reinforcements go there. This is also the only situation where getting a second vessel is viable, though still risky. Leave a few marines behind (2-3-4) and move out with your science vessel that is ready to irradiate and your 1-0 m&m. You don't have tanks so go for his morphing hatchery. Kill it while getting tanks and surviving his almost inevitable counterattack, then expand and play out the rest of the TvZ.
2: He's not expanding yet
He is probably getting lurkers first so throw a scan and get tanks ASAP. You absolutely have to move out and contain his lurkers/drones that want to become exps while floating your cc and getting static defense. Leave your vessel and some of your marines at home so he can't kill your turrets while they are still under construction without eating an irradiate for it. When your base is safe from muta harass send your extra marines and science vessel in for the full containment and hold it as long as possible, making it a 2base vs 2base zerg game which is great for you. Float your science facility over your cliff if it's LT, keep your tanks at home and take any other actions to prevent drops. Once your contain is broken and he lost a lot of units for it and got his expands way too late, play out the rest of the TvZ.
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very nice grot 
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Some thoughts:
When you send out two scvs to scout the other mains, highlight that scv along with a marine and you can get it to patrol between the main and natural. I also like to put an scv near their choke so that I can see when they move out with lurker/drone to expand and it gives you extra scouting in case they catch you offguard with lurker or something - if they don't seem to want to take middle, be wary of drops or fast other tech.
Interesting that factory is gotten before marine range, I nearly always get marine range right after stim, so I'll definitely have to try this basic build that was provided by Grot. Generally is 3rd depot gotten before academy (12 marine 4 medic fighting force) or academy first? (8 rine 2 firebat 2medic gogo) Small thing - start your science facility before your addon, that way they finish at the same time, of course if you're going dropship first because he opened lurker, then forget this - also note that dropship is golden vs 1 base zerg.
If he goes lurker without many lings, play it safer, becuase he's most likely going to try to slow drop past your contain and rape your choke // use his other overlord to ferry near your CC. An scv or marine patrolling the sides is always nice.
Love the two available options that grot mentions - Option 1 seems a little crazy as opposed to just expanding, building all your static, then moving out with say a bunker on your choke or whatnot, but that most likely woudln't hold a mutaling counterattack and with the extra time + building static defense probably will give him more of an advantage as opposed to Grot's keep playing 1 base + move out and attack and only have to build a little static and whatnot.
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If you think the idle cc thing is too crazy, you can also play it the ret way; get a 3rd barracks against muta tech instead
this is very good and viable against all muta strats as well, I just happen to like building the cc fast better
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same thing with the 3rd depot before academy both are viable
I like 3rd depot first better but most top tier progamers get academy first
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Hmm Marine Range comes THAT late?
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speaking about LT of course i would like to mention the following. 80% (or more?) of zergs will expand fast and try to stop your m+m from going in his natural/main with sunkens/lings. therefore if i see a quick expo I go 2 rax, then factory THEN academy. i build a tank, THEN research siege while getting stim and a couple of medics and attack along with whatever rines i have so far (around 6 or 7). most often than not his natural goes down in the end as i keep sending reinforcements (or he loses a lot of sunkens which is still good). this has won me so many games in the first 5-6 minutes, it's hard for the zerg to stop.
if i see lurks i keep on building tanks and go vessel, if i see muta i go 3rd rax, stop tank production and get vessel/ira. I'm not really into fast expo vs Z on LT, i find 1 base to be enough fot the first push.
if i choose to go standard build whitout the quick siege tank, i like getting stim, then marine range and THEN weapons, i find range to be extrememly helpful vs both lurk and muta.
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That build of yours school looks pretty weak, it will die to mass lings, it dies to muta, its such a hardcore sacrifice of mnm just to get a tank sooner which will take a lot of time to kill all sunks, zerg can just rebuild sunks and do whatever he wants in the meantime, dunno how can you win with that.
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indeed, come to think about it mass ling would own that. but hardly anyone goes mass ling with fast expo they go either muta or lurk.
i actually just won a game to a guy who kept rebuilding sunkens and went muta, i had a hard time dealing with it (a few turrets, got a 3rd rax, starting building cc, and tech to vessel/ira), but i actually survived with minor losses, then took my natural and eventually won the game even though he had lurks vs my many rines at the time i got out (good micro needed). i think if you have good macro while pushing and react fast you can deal with it...
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hmm.. good post but I think there's still only one reliable B.O. for TvZ, excluding the 12 vs. 2 positions, and that is rax, rax, CC.
it's unstoppable once you get it down.
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On April 07 2005 19:10 bigMommA wrote:
hmm.. good post but I think there's still only one reliable B.O. for TvZ, excluding the 12 vs. 2 positions, and that is rax, rax, CC.
it's unstoppable once you get it down.
I agree.
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Belgium9949 Posts
if you contain with m&m, you really NEED that marine range earlier
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you'll have the range when you need it
if you insist on getting it earlier then don't try to play like this guide suggests, you'll fail
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Alright, youre in the middle of getting a second rax in this build, and you're opponent isn't building a second hatch and is instead getting a quick pool and pumps out 6 - 8 lings initially, which just overrun you because you have 1 - 2 rines. I know you should use your SCVs, but what if they just overrun them?
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Belgium9949 Posts
then you need to practice your scv+rine micro a bit
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On March 08 2006 11:48 Phlash wrote:
Alright, youre in the middle of getting a second rax in this build, and you're opponent isn't building a second hatch and is instead getting a quick pool and pumps out 6 - 8 lings initially, which just overrun you because you have 1 - 2 rines. I know you should use your SCVs, but what if they just overrun them?
If you can't stop a ling rush with a 2 rax build and a ramp after scouting it, you shouldn't be playing terran.
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My thoughts:
Against muta tech, I throw up a 3rd rax and tech to vessels. After defending against harass, I'll move out with ~20 rines and a vessel. Sometimes I don't even scout, I just go straight for his nearest expo. I'll put up a bunk and turrets near my cc, and rally my units to my cc instead of the choke. I don't know what kind of zerg doesn't try to expo at around this time.
Against lurks, you're right about the contain, but if you contain him for too long and he doesn't try to break it, then I get extremely worried because it probably means a big drop is coming. But then again, maybe he's just massing up for a break attempt. If he doesn't try to break the contain within a minute or so, I usually just abandon the contain lol. I also get vessel at the same speed I would against mutas. However, I don't get irridiate, and I use the extra gas on tanks.
If you expo according to Grot and are afraid of counterattack, don't be afraid to build bunks. Not just 1. Build like 2-3+, then surround them with depots and turrets. It kinda reminds you of newbie days where you mass static defense, but it's worth it here.
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Korea (South)11591 Posts
i personally like to 3 rax and use my micro to my advantage, get control of an expansion, and from there make 2 ports and go the style that i just found out In_Dove does pretty decently. It's pretty viable against C+ and higher zergs as they mostly get 1 expo and get fast ultra/guards, or atleast the ones I have played recently...
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u forgot to mention more suplydepous...thar are cotin 100 each....!!!!
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EPT
