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Canada318 Posts
I have no doubt this strategy is one of the oldest and most popular Zerg vs Terran strats. There are many good reasons for this,
-extreme mobility
-given good positioning it has brute strength
-insane harass potential
-denys harass rather easily
-Versatile
-Agile
-Hostile..... kinda got caught up in the moment.
What i realized is many players complain about dieing to X or being contained by Y and this is more than likely due to the build being executed incorrectly. After studying many replays and many practice / ladder games i feel i have found quite powerful timings for this build.
The build
9 ovy
14 hatch
14 pool
17 ovy
(if your opponent went 1 rax 1 gas)
gas at 16,
speed whenever you reach 100 gas, then pull off gas
(if your opponent went 2 rax)
2 spines asap, queens + lings until your secure
gas at 22
speed whenever you reach 100 gas, then pull off gas
after youve held off any early pressure (if there was any)
make sure to hold watch towers + keep a scout outside your opponents base
evo chamber + bane nest (30-40supply) depends on if your opponent has expanded or not.
Drone up to about 40-45 supply, and then drop a macro hatch and start your 3rd queen
50 Lair, take the remaining gasses and try to reach about 50 drones.
Once you've achieved this your in a great position, you have 3 queens 3 hatcheries (so if banshees come you can produce more queens)
start +1 melee and bane speed as soon as lair pops, then spire as soon as your resources allow it.
Once your 2 bases are saturated, begin spamming lings, take a 3rd and spam mutas when your spire pops. (your money will be very floaty because you basically open with nothing but drones)
continue to expand, grab a 2nd evo and keep up with both muta + melee / carapace upgrades. Each engagement with the terran should result in everything dieing except your mutas, in this case your ball continues to grow until you can harass the terran to death.
In the case he goes mech, counter attack when he moves out and make sure to spread your expos ( makes base trading much easier)
Creep spread + overlord spread is essential for dealing with drops, and if any push comes before your spire is done, you can handle it with the production of speedlings off 3 hatcheries + 3 queens.
Replays
http://www.mediafire.com/?3q3ahu1vis1dhjv
feel free to ask any questions or leave comments.
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I loled at versatile agile hostile.
Your = possessive. Your mutas are awesome.
You're = conjunction of you are. You're building mutas.
So this is pretty much a best case build that goes all the way to midgame, and it's good, but could you add more scouting timings/responses other than the 1rax 2 rax bit?
Good guide tho, thanks!
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Defending against this is such a nightmare! Even with forward offensive aggression, one misclick and you're dead as T 
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Given the content of the OP, do you mind explaining this?
On May 24 2011 07:09 JEcho wrote:
I am jeffert is correct. Two base muta isn't viable you really need a third base.
This was taken from your other awesome thread JEcho's ZvT RoachBaneLing Bust. It seems like the build you are detailing is in fact a two-base muta build, albeit with 3 hatcheries.
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I've had a lot of success with this build but am always unsure about gas and lair timing. If I lose it's usually to a siege push with 3+ tanks, especially close positions. Banelings without speed aren't very cost efficient. Do you usually hold it off with pure speedlings?
Do you happen to know what kind of timing the third is? That is, what upgrades or units are necessary to hold it vs stim+tanks+medivacs. Like, you wouldn't expand without baneling speed, a good number of ling/bane? Would you take a 3rd if for some reason your mutas were delayed or would you not be able to hold it generally?
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How would you deal with heavy blue flame aggression?
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On June 09 2011 09:24 Moralez wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 09:22 Rayzerwulf wrote:
How would you deal with heavy blue flame aggression? lol what? rofl
Well when they go blue flame, it's hard to defend with ling bling and mutas aren't out yet. So should I switch to roach? It'll take more time to take mutas out though.
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Canada318 Posts
On June 09 2011 09:17 Exley wrote:Given the content of the OP, do you mind explaining this? Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 07:09 JEcho wrote:
I am jeffert is correct. Two base muta isn't viable you really need a third base.
This was taken from your other awesome thread JEcho's ZvT RoachBaneLing Bust. It seems like the build you are detailing is in fact a two-base muta build, albeit with 3 hatcheries.
Yes, at the time i hadnt figured out how to work in the 3rd hatchery, which is why i said 2 base muta wasnt viable, 2 base muta in context meant 2 hatch, this build incorporates the 3rd hatch which allows insane amounts of zerglings (the same amount 3 base will produce)
If they go blue flame 1-2 spines, + queens and good creep spread are very strong deterents, keep your lings hidden, and when they move in trap them as close to the spines as possible to clean them up.
Any marine / tank / medivac push that comes PRE-spire will be insanely small, i usually use 4-5 banes and as many speedlings as i can produce, creep spread is very important for this (o and u can also use queens, they are great for tanking early damage
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You should detail some of the micro and how to deal with a Terran marine/tank (the current Terran favored unit mix) push in this.
Personally, I use the mutas to wreak havoc in the Terran's base when he pushes, pick off reinforcements, snipe undefended or straggling tanks and force stims. I focus my zerglings on tanks while I follow the marines with my banelings.
Another good thing to mention would be how to magic box in case of a thor, what to target when harassing, etc.
Other than that great write up :p I can't believe there hasn't been a guide on this yet
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How many muta's would you suggest? I personally get between 20-25 muta, or more if he still hasnt gotten any thors by then.
I also can't decide if i want +1 armor for muta or +1 attack. The attack will help greatly with picking off stuff but armor scales better against all the terran units that muta fear: thors x4, marines attack fast, and even turrets are 2x.
About the micro of the fight, what do you think about A+move zerglings, right click move banelings towards marines, and shift+queue attacks on tanks UNLESS theres thors in which case you magic box muta. Sound good or is there a more optimal way (i have the apm and micro to do more if needed >;D)
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On June 09 2011 09:17 Exley wrote:Given the content of the OP, do you mind explaining this? Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 07:09 JEcho wrote:
I am jeffert is correct. Two base muta isn't viable you really need a third base.
This was taken from your other awesome thread JEcho's ZvT RoachBaneLing Bust. It seems like the build you are detailing is in fact a two-base muta build, albeit with 3 hatcheries.
Two base muta is viable, early, once the spire pops and you have that bank of minerals/gas/larva and I have a gap in my defense. Usually, they hit after many terran timing pushes, where we are scrambling for turrets, thors, or even marines. Good muta users just skirt the side of the base all day if they can't get in, take a third, and macro your face off as you waste money on things and they keep reinforcing.
My natural response to unprepared for mutas is to hit and try and be as aggressive as possible to get up my defense. Rarely does it work, when they take their third, they have 4 hatches--3 base 1 macro hatch. Too many slings can be made at a time lol
Maybe it's just me, but without solid tank counters, sling bling is just filthy. Split all you want, you're going to get ran down. The mutas are there to basically force the terran into action, and try and reset/slow down the tank count/push respectively.
They hit a good timing window, right after many terran timing windows... Due to everything being BEFORE mutas pop, etc.
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It seems that this build is highly aggressive, given that you are producing so many lings off 2 base with a macro hatch. Do you find this two base build any more viable than the traditional 3 base build that you'd see more often from someone like IdrA or Ret, or do you only use this when your opponent is being aggressive or the map/position has a hard to hold third, and are there any advantages to this two base build in your opinion to the three base build?
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My only issue with this particular muta-ling build is difficulty in defending blue-flame. I'm talking specifically about a 1-rax expand into 2 factory blue flame timing, with 6 BF hellions moving out around 9:15.
In your build, you end up delaying the lair about a minute or so compared to most mutaling builds in order to get the macro hatch, bnest, and evo chamber up first. That makes your build very solid against bio pushes, medevac stuff, and banshee stuff, but 6-8 blue flame hellions kill pretty much infinite lings so the macro hatch doesn't end up meaning much.
The difference with your build is that you are basically stuck waiting to get mutas with no way of dealing with BF hellions with no ability to make roaches or mutas, whereas the more typical IdrA style mutaling (lair around 6:30, baneling nest after lair starts, evo chamber timed to finish when spire finishes) will have them out by 10:00.
This is a small gripe though, since I think this style of mutaling is much safer than IdrA style. If I were ever to play IdrA on a map with a wide open natural I would 100% open with an expand into stim push that hits at 9:30 to try to expose that particular build's weakest point. Only problem is I'm a Zerg player and he'd own me anyway.
Also, On June 09 2011 10:01 Arisen wrote:Do you find this two base build any more viable than the traditional 3 base build that you'd see more often from someone like IdrA or Ret
IdrA's mutaling is specifically a 2 base build. His third doesn't come into effect after the first batch of 6+ mutas are out.
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Canada318 Posts
I recommend a maximum of 30-35 mutas, anymore and your army size really starts to suffer.
blue flame hellions, your really need to split your lings, and use spines + queens to keep them at a distance, if he really gets THAT many, your mutas should be on their way.
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On June 09 2011 09:45 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 09:17 Exley wrote:Given the content of the OP, do you mind explaining this? On May 24 2011 07:09 JEcho wrote:
I am jeffert is correct. Two base muta isn't viable you really need a third base.
This was taken from your other awesome thread JEcho's ZvT RoachBaneLing Bust. It seems like the build you are detailing is in fact a two-base muta build, albeit with 3 hatcheries. Two base muta is viable, early, once the spire pops and you have that bank of minerals/gas/larva and I have a gap in my defense. Usually, they hit after many terran timing pushes, where we are scrambling for turrets, thors, or even marines. Good muta users just skirt the side of the base all day if they can't get in, take a third, and macro your face off as you waste money on things and they keep reinforcing. My natural response to unprepared for mutas is to hit and try and be as aggressive as possible to get up my defense. Rarely does it work, when they take their third, they have 4 hatches--3 base 1 macro hatch. Too many slings can be made at a time lol Maybe it's just me, but without solid tank counters, sling bling is just filthy. Split all you want, you're going to get ran down. The mutas are there to basically force the terran into action, and try and reset/slow down the tank count/push respectively. They hit a good timing window, right after many terran timing windows... Due to everything being BEFORE mutas pop, etc.
I have a pretty solid build that lets you get a third around the 10 minute mark, it also incorporates a push at that time which has stim, 3 siege tanks and a lot of marines.
I never have problem with mutas after this push.
I don't want to derail the thread further, though, so if you're interested in some reps or just hear more about it, PM me.
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On June 09 2011 10:07 Exley wrote:
IdrA's mutaling is specifically a 2 base build. His third doesn't come into effect after the first batch of 6+ mutas are out.
His third hatch gets planted around around the same time as his spire. His first batch of mutas will pop out before the third is operational, but will be operational almost immediately afterwards, pumping 5-6 gas muta instead of 4.
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Canada318 Posts
unfortunately for us, idra has insane control, as shown by the multiple times hes trapped hellions with his workers and taken minimal losses.
Since most of us dont have that control, we will rely on a third hatch for extra speedlings.
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On June 09 2011 10:35 JEcho wrote:
unfortunately for us, idra has insane control, as shown by the multiple times hes trapped hellions with his workers and taken minimal losses.
Since most of us dont have that control, we will rely on a third hatch for extra speedlings.
That's fair. I suppose this build is much more forgiving to control mistakes, which would otherwise cost you the game. Thanks dood.
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EPT
