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I have no doubt this strategy is one of the oldest and most popular Zerg vs Terran strats. There are many good reasons for this,
-extreme mobility
-given good positioning it has brute strength
-insane harass potential
-denys harass rather easily
-Versatile
-Agile
-Hostile..... kinda got caught up in the moment.
What i realized is many players complain about dieing to X or being contained by Y and this is more than likely due to the build being executed incorrectly. After studying many replays and many practice / ladder games i feel i have found quite powerful timings for this build.
The build
9 ovy
14 hatch
14 pool
17 ovy
(if your opponent went 1 rax 1 gas)
gas at 16,
speed whenever you reach 100 gas, then pull off gas
(if your opponent went 2 rax)
2 spines asap, queens + lings until your secure
gas at 22
speed whenever you reach 100 gas, then pull off gas
after youve held off any early pressure (if there was any)
make sure to hold watch towers + keep a scout outside your opponents base
evo chamber + bane nest (30-40supply) depends on if your opponent has expanded or not.
Drone up to about 40-45 supply, and then drop a macro hatch and start your 3rd queen
50 Lair, take the remaining gasses and try to reach about 50 drones.
Once you've achieved this your in a great position, you have 3 queens 3 hatcheries (so if banshees come you can produce more queens)
start +1 melee and bane speed as soon as lair pops, then spire as soon as your resources allow it.
Once your 2 bases are saturated, begin spamming lings, take a 3rd and spam mutas when your spire pops. (your money will be very floaty because you basically open with nothing but drones)
continue to expand, grab a 2nd evo and keep up with both muta + melee / carapace upgrades. Each engagement with the terran should result in everything dieing except your mutas, in this case your ball continues to grow until you can harass the terran to death.
In the case he goes mech, counter attack when he moves out and make sure to spread your expos ( makes base trading much easier)
Creep spread + overlord spread is essential for dealing with drops, and if any push comes before your spire is done, you can handle it with the production of speedlings off 3 hatcheries + 3 queens.
Replays
http://www.mediafire.com/?3q3ahu1vis1dhjv
feel free to ask any questions or leave comments.
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I loled at versatile agile hostile.
Your = possessive. Your mutas are awesome.
You're = conjunction of you are. You're building mutas.
So this is pretty much a best case build that goes all the way to midgame, and it's good, but could you add more scouting timings/responses other than the 1rax 2 rax bit?
Good guide tho, thanks!
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Defending against this is such a nightmare! Even with forward offensive aggression, one misclick and you're dead as T 
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Given the content of the OP, do you mind explaining this?
On May 24 2011 07:09 JEcho wrote:
I am jeffert is correct. Two base muta isn't viable you really need a third base.
This was taken from your other awesome thread JEcho's ZvT RoachBaneLing Bust. It seems like the build you are detailing is in fact a two-base muta build, albeit with 3 hatcheries.
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I've had a lot of success with this build but am always unsure about gas and lair timing. If I lose it's usually to a siege push with 3+ tanks, especially close positions. Banelings without speed aren't very cost efficient. Do you usually hold it off with pure speedlings?
Do you happen to know what kind of timing the third is? That is, what upgrades or units are necessary to hold it vs stim+tanks+medivacs. Like, you wouldn't expand without baneling speed, a good number of ling/bane? Would you take a 3rd if for some reason your mutas were delayed or would you not be able to hold it generally?
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How would you deal with heavy blue flame aggression?
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On June 09 2011 09:24 Moralez wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 09:22 Rayzerwulf wrote:
How would you deal with heavy blue flame aggression? lol what? rofl
Well when they go blue flame, it's hard to defend with ling bling and mutas aren't out yet. So should I switch to roach? It'll take more time to take mutas out though.
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On June 09 2011 09:17 Exley wrote:Given the content of the OP, do you mind explaining this? Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 07:09 JEcho wrote:
I am jeffert is correct. Two base muta isn't viable you really need a third base.
This was taken from your other awesome thread JEcho's ZvT RoachBaneLing Bust. It seems like the build you are detailing is in fact a two-base muta build, albeit with 3 hatcheries.
Yes, at the time i hadnt figured out how to work in the 3rd hatchery, which is why i said 2 base muta wasnt viable, 2 base muta in context meant 2 hatch, this build incorporates the 3rd hatch which allows insane amounts of zerglings (the same amount 3 base will produce)
If they go blue flame 1-2 spines, + queens and good creep spread are very strong deterents, keep your lings hidden, and when they move in trap them as close to the spines as possible to clean them up.
Any marine / tank / medivac push that comes PRE-spire will be insanely small, i usually use 4-5 banes and as many speedlings as i can produce, creep spread is very important for this (o and u can also use queens, they are great for tanking early damage
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You should detail some of the micro and how to deal with a Terran marine/tank (the current Terran favored unit mix) push in this.
Personally, I use the mutas to wreak havoc in the Terran's base when he pushes, pick off reinforcements, snipe undefended or straggling tanks and force stims. I focus my zerglings on tanks while I follow the marines with my banelings.
Another good thing to mention would be how to magic box in case of a thor, what to target when harassing, etc.
Other than that great write up :p I can't believe there hasn't been a guide on this yet
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How many muta's would you suggest? I personally get between 20-25 muta, or more if he still hasnt gotten any thors by then.
I also can't decide if i want +1 armor for muta or +1 attack. The attack will help greatly with picking off stuff but armor scales better against all the terran units that muta fear: thors x4, marines attack fast, and even turrets are 2x.
About the micro of the fight, what do you think about A+move zerglings, right click move banelings towards marines, and shift+queue attacks on tanks UNLESS theres thors in which case you magic box muta. Sound good or is there a more optimal way (i have the apm and micro to do more if needed >;D)
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On June 09 2011 09:17 Exley wrote:Given the content of the OP, do you mind explaining this? Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 07:09 JEcho wrote:
I am jeffert is correct. Two base muta isn't viable you really need a third base.
This was taken from your other awesome thread JEcho's ZvT RoachBaneLing Bust. It seems like the build you are detailing is in fact a two-base muta build, albeit with 3 hatcheries.
Two base muta is viable, early, once the spire pops and you have that bank of minerals/gas/larva and I have a gap in my defense. Usually, they hit after many terran timing pushes, where we are scrambling for turrets, thors, or even marines. Good muta users just skirt the side of the base all day if they can't get in, take a third, and macro your face off as you waste money on things and they keep reinforcing.
My natural response to unprepared for mutas is to hit and try and be as aggressive as possible to get up my defense. Rarely does it work, when they take their third, they have 4 hatches--3 base 1 macro hatch. Too many slings can be made at a time lol
Maybe it's just me, but without solid tank counters, sling bling is just filthy. Split all you want, you're going to get ran down. The mutas are there to basically force the terran into action, and try and reset/slow down the tank count/push respectively.
They hit a good timing window, right after many terran timing windows... Due to everything being BEFORE mutas pop, etc.
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It seems that this build is highly aggressive, given that you are producing so many lings off 2 base with a macro hatch. Do you find this two base build any more viable than the traditional 3 base build that you'd see more often from someone like IdrA or Ret, or do you only use this when your opponent is being aggressive or the map/position has a hard to hold third, and are there any advantages to this two base build in your opinion to the three base build?
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My only issue with this particular muta-ling build is difficulty in defending blue-flame. I'm talking specifically about a 1-rax expand into 2 factory blue flame timing, with 6 BF hellions moving out around 9:15.
In your build, you end up delaying the lair about a minute or so compared to most mutaling builds in order to get the macro hatch, bnest, and evo chamber up first. That makes your build very solid against bio pushes, medevac stuff, and banshee stuff, but 6-8 blue flame hellions kill pretty much infinite lings so the macro hatch doesn't end up meaning much.
The difference with your build is that you are basically stuck waiting to get mutas with no way of dealing with BF hellions with no ability to make roaches or mutas, whereas the more typical IdrA style mutaling (lair around 6:30, baneling nest after lair starts, evo chamber timed to finish when spire finishes) will have them out by 10:00.
This is a small gripe though, since I think this style of mutaling is much safer than IdrA style. If I were ever to play IdrA on a map with a wide open natural I would 100% open with an expand into stim push that hits at 9:30 to try to expose that particular build's weakest point. Only problem is I'm a Zerg player and he'd own me anyway.
Also, On June 09 2011 10:01 Arisen wrote:Do you find this two base build any more viable than the traditional 3 base build that you'd see more often from someone like IdrA or Ret
IdrA's mutaling is specifically a 2 base build. His third doesn't come into effect after the first batch of 6+ mutas are out.
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I recommend a maximum of 30-35 mutas, anymore and your army size really starts to suffer.
blue flame hellions, your really need to split your lings, and use spines + queens to keep them at a distance, if he really gets THAT many, your mutas should be on their way.
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On June 09 2011 09:45 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 09:17 Exley wrote:Given the content of the OP, do you mind explaining this? On May 24 2011 07:09 JEcho wrote:
I am jeffert is correct. Two base muta isn't viable you really need a third base.
This was taken from your other awesome thread JEcho's ZvT RoachBaneLing Bust. It seems like the build you are detailing is in fact a two-base muta build, albeit with 3 hatcheries. Two base muta is viable, early, once the spire pops and you have that bank of minerals/gas/larva and I have a gap in my defense. Usually, they hit after many terran timing pushes, where we are scrambling for turrets, thors, or even marines. Good muta users just skirt the side of the base all day if they can't get in, take a third, and macro your face off as you waste money on things and they keep reinforcing. My natural response to unprepared for mutas is to hit and try and be as aggressive as possible to get up my defense. Rarely does it work, when they take their third, they have 4 hatches--3 base 1 macro hatch. Too many slings can be made at a time lol Maybe it's just me, but without solid tank counters, sling bling is just filthy. Split all you want, you're going to get ran down. The mutas are there to basically force the terran into action, and try and reset/slow down the tank count/push respectively. They hit a good timing window, right after many terran timing windows... Due to everything being BEFORE mutas pop, etc.
I have a pretty solid build that lets you get a third around the 10 minute mark, it also incorporates a push at that time which has stim, 3 siege tanks and a lot of marines.
I never have problem with mutas after this push.
I don't want to derail the thread further, though, so if you're interested in some reps or just hear more about it, PM me.
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On June 09 2011 10:07 Exley wrote:
IdrA's mutaling is specifically a 2 base build. His third doesn't come into effect after the first batch of 6+ mutas are out.
His third hatch gets planted around around the same time as his spire. His first batch of mutas will pop out before the third is operational, but will be operational almost immediately afterwards, pumping 5-6 gas muta instead of 4.
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unfortunately for us, idra has insane control, as shown by the multiple times hes trapped hellions with his workers and taken minimal losses.
Since most of us dont have that control, we will rely on a third hatch for extra speedlings.
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On June 09 2011 10:35 JEcho wrote:
unfortunately for us, idra has insane control, as shown by the multiple times hes trapped hellions with his workers and taken minimal losses.
Since most of us dont have that control, we will rely on a third hatch for extra speedlings.
That's fair. I suppose this build is much more forgiving to control mistakes, which would otherwise cost you the game. Thanks dood.
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I dont understand why it took so long for Z's to incorporate macro hatches into their play, im finally starting to see them now in the master league, and they are absolutely deadly.
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macro hatches require knowledge to be put to good use, if you get them arbitrarily just because your money is high they can also lead to your death. A good example is when your income is crap (late game ~50-60 drones) but your floating 3k minerals, someone who isnt sure what they were doing could drop 1-2 macro hatches, spend all their money in 2 inject rounds, and proceed to be broke forever
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On June 09 2011 10:46 XXXSmOke wrote:
I dont understand why it took so long for Z's to incorporate macro hatches into their play, im finally starting to see them now in the master league, and they are absolutely deadly.
In all fairness, anyone in Masters league probably has consistently good macro. The only time I feel it is really appropriate to add macro hatches is once you're maxed out 200/200 and need the larvae for a quick remax. If you're keeping up with injects and constantly using all your larvae, you shouldn't have money to afford macro hatches until you're capped at 200.
However, due to the current metagame as opposed to before, Zerg is constantly pressured with more aggressive marine/tank play and so this situation rarely occurs, at least for me.
On topic with the OP, I enjoy playing with Muta/ling/bling but find that unless T fucks up with marine/tank somewhere, I'm constantly on the backfoot throughout the game because marine/tank seems almost as stable as muta/ling econ-wise. I can never really get into that "swarm" state because every time I engage I end up losing or barely winning.
How would you approach engagements during the midgame where Terran is slow-pushing towards your base little by little?
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if by made game you mean when the muta ball is still small in numbers, counter attack the moment he leaves his base, mutas + lings kill soo many workers / depots etc, and your mutas dont die because when everything starts to die you just fly them away. While this is happening your respamming lings so if he tries to move out you can counter again. (banes stay at home)
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I don't know how I feel about this.
2 Hatch muta will give you faster tech.
Getting a third instead of a macro hatch and relying on roaches/ling/bane to defend will give you a much better economy.
Idra is often seen doing the first, and Losira is often seen doing the second.
As it is I think your build does worse compared to these two. It is a middle ground style that leaves both your economy and your tech underdeveloped.
I agree your version is easier to defend with against early pushes due to the higher larva/speedling numbers.
If you have any pro replays / VODs with 3 hatch before lair, no roaches, and no third I'd be more interested.
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I play somewhat similar but get an earlier 3rd queen and add infestors once I take my 4th or have an advantageous engagement. Nice to see good players helping the community!
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Irrelevant joke
+ Show Spoiler +Change "versatile" to "resourceful" and scrap "hostile" and your reasons form the acronym: EGIdra
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baneling micro on creep will stop most blue flame hellion harass. use them to guard the gaps alone your spines so if they run through they get blown up.
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Im going to have to disagree with your 2 rax defence, I feel like 2 spines would put you behind, I go Pool first in ZvT because I prefer the safety and I have enough confidence in my mechanics to know I'll be able to maintain a strong economy with the later hatch.
Also I make my 3rd hatch when my spire is halfway done, the first minerals go on mutas, and then after this point I spend every 100 gas on mutas and all the spare minerals go into drones at this point, while applying harrasement to the Terran.
If you don't mind I'll share my idea? ^_^
I go Speedling Expand, take guys off @ 100 gas for speed.
Then I continously make drones and be active with my lings.
When the hatch pops I put my first guys back in gas (3).
100 gas - Lair
Take 3 more extractors.
50 gas - Baneling nest + Evo Chamber
If you start +1 upgrade, you should have around 230 gas when your lair finishes to get a spire.
But I'm not at the same level as you JEcho, so feel free to critique my opinion. ^_^
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On June 09 2011 14:14 Mithrandir wrote:
I don't know how I feel about this.
2 Hatch muta will give you faster tech.
Getting a third instead of a macro hatch and relying on roaches/ling/bane to defend will give you a much better economy.
Idra is often seen doing the first, and Losira is often seen doing the second.
As it is I think your build does worse compared to these two. It is a middle ground style that leaves both your economy and your tech underdeveloped.
I agree your version is easier to defend with against early pushes due to the higher larva/speedling numbers.
If you have any pro replays / VODs with 3 hatch before lair, no roaches, and no third I'd be more interested.
If you watch phoenix's stream, i can't think of a zvt where he doesn't do this.
he competed in gsl2 i believe, and is obviously pro.
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As a masters player I am always looking to improve. That being said I'm not sure that my build is effective enough. Generally the gameplan vs T is to get 14h/14p/16g/16ovie/16 2x queen. build 4 lings (2 for towers on most maps and 2 for scouting their base), 2 drones and then an ovie on 24. Queens pop at like 24-26ish and make 2 creep tumors, Get ling speed, drone to 30, get an ovie. @ second 100g get lair (at like 5:30ish). take second gas when lair starts, when lair finishes you have exactly 200 gas to get spire. while waiting for spire get 2 evo chambers, start producing lings for the inevitable. You should be at 44 drones at about the 8 minute mark. After this, if you know your opponent isn't going to pressure you, keep making drones. Generally though, the opponent pushes out with like 20 marines and 3 tanks at approx 9:30. When spire starts get gas 3/4 and replace the drones/make the drones for the extractors. When the spire pops you should have +1/+1 started on your evo's, and about 400 gas/min for the mutas and +1 air atk. preparing for the marine/tank pressure at 9:30 I would say you generally have 44 drones, 40 (quite a bit in production) lings and 5 or so mutas (3 in play and 2 in production).
My question is... Do I have enough stuff? I keep my money low (consistently less than 100) and and I'm never really short on larvae... If I didn't get the second evo w/ the +carapace I could have +275/+150 and effectively replace it with a bane nest or more units. What do you guys think, is my build acceptable or should I change it.
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i often wonder if it's possible to stop delay a command center from changing into a planetary fortress
what i'm thinking of is contaminate...does it work?
the strangest thing is that for Terran...there's honestly not much essentials to upgrade...unlike zerg where almost every unit has a speed upgrade
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On June 09 2011 09:12 antz0r wrote:Defending against this is such a nightmare! Even with forward offensive aggression, one misclick and you're dead as T
Only fair. One misclick (or even one second not babysitting your Mutas) and all Mutas are dead to a Thor.
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Ok I'm gonna be a noob and go ahead and ask this question, only because I like mutaling/bling.
When I go mutaling/bling, lets say I follow the build you put in the OP. From this point out all the gas literally is spent on mutas, money is spent on hatches, drones and some lings. Since I'm very atcive with my mutas I can see whats going on and get more blings if there's lots of marines ect. When the push starts from terran, only lings and blings are made.
Is this a good mindset to have? When spire pops, all gas into mutas for harrass and cash on hatches and drones till ur 1base ahead of them? Should I rely on my mutas to keep him in his base while I expo and drone up? I'm nowhere near GM so a quick and easy answer would be fantastic 
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On June 09 2011 17:11 VoiceOfDecember wrote:Ok I'm gonna be a noob and go ahead and ask this question, only because I like mutaling/bling. When I go mutaling/bling, lets say I follow the build you put in the OP. From this point out all the gas literally is spent on mutas, money is spent on hatches, drones and some lings. Since I'm very atcive with my mutas I can see whats going on and get more blings if there's lots of marines ect. When the push starts from terran, only lings and blings are made. Is this a good mindset to have? When spire pops, all gas into mutas for harrass and cash on hatches and drones till ur 1base ahead of them? Should I rely on my mutas to keep him in his base while I expo and drone up? I'm nowhere near GM so a quick and easy answer would be fantastic
You shouldn't think in absolutes like that, it limits your creativity. But in general that is the gameplan. You are trying to pin your opponent in his base with your mutas. If he has to make 6 turrets and keep his marines/thors in his main for you to not pick his infrastructure apart then you are doing something right.
Also, Your opponents expansion habits should weigh in on your decision on when to expand but it shouldn't dictate it. Because you start losing efficiency on minerals after 16 workers you should want to expand whenever you have that saturation or feel comfortable expanding. An example of this would be where you see your opponent on 2 base and you want to be on 5 base, You should go to 5 base because of your play, not stay on 3 because of your opponent.
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Question: I always feel like I'm doing it wrong by not getting infestors until incredibly late if at all. I prefer a enormous mass of upgraded mutalisks but I feel like that might not be the best choice, even against low count thors.
In response to the last post, sometimes I build hatches I'm not comfortable with defending simply as a buffer so Terran will attack a certain area, for example the far sides of the map on XNC. That way I can draw forces away from the gold/natural thirds and do damage to his economy while he costs me 300 minerals.
Not to mention he can't expand to it until I kill it.
It comes down in my mind to 12 lings or user placed destructable debris.
Has anyone else downloaded the replay pack? I love the names, especially supermutacrazyboom.
That just sounds like good times.
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On June 09 2011 16:56 IzieBoy wrote:
i often wonder if it's possible to stop delay a command center from changing into a planetary fortress
what i'm thinking of is contaminate...does it work?
the strangest thing is that for Terran...there's honestly not much essentials to upgrade...unlike zerg where almost every unit has a speed upgrade
Rofl - except for stim, CS and slow?
edit: forgot BF and siege. Are you trolling?
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On June 09 2011 18:00 Cibron wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 16:56 IzieBoy wrote:
i often wonder if it's possible to stop delay a command center from changing into a planetary fortress
what i'm thinking of is contaminate...does it work?
the strangest thing is that for Terran...there's honestly not much essentials to upgrade...unlike zerg where almost every unit has a speed upgrade Rofl - except for stim, CS and slow? edit: forgot BF and siege. Are you trolling?
And don't forget guardian shields, reaper speed (if we're talking 'bout speed upgrades), and any of the lesser-used high-tech unit upgrades (cloak, yamato, ghost upgrades, raven upgrades, ...)
Most zerg units have no speed upgrades, only ling/bling/roach do. (Not: infestor, hydra, ultra, muta, corruptor, BL, queen.)
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Congrats on making the top 16 JEcho. And thanks again for the replay pack/thoughts.
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What is the difference between this build and the roach/bane bust that makes it good to hatch first here but requires pool first for the other? Both go for a similar number of drones on two bases and i always based my hat first or pool first choice based on the number of drones i wanted.
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Zurich15328 Posts
Please see other guide threads for the level of quality we are looking for. The information in the OP is what everyone could get from just watching a replay or VOD.
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EPT
