After watching Thorzain's games against MC I was so shocked by his TvP prowess that I decided to analyze each replay in the series to see his style and analyze it for myself and now of course Teamliquid.
Key Notes of Thorzain's Play:
He goes for a maurauder expansion that is unlike most others, he makes one marauder and one marine before his expansion, he gets enough for 50 gas, taking 2 off gas after his techlab goes down then gets another 25 gas for a single marauder, this allows him to get an expansion quicker then most marauder expansions, as typically players get a few marauders before grabbing their expansion.
He does not keep making marauders after the initial tech lab add-on this is so he can make more marines, and marines are much less expensive than a 100/25 marauder, this makes it so he can get a faster stim (to make up for his lack of concussive shells) and so he can get a fast engineering bay as well as his 1/1 upgrades. He does begin making marauders again as his 2nd base is saturated and after he starts +1 attack.
He gets later vikings which is why he will transition into double reactor ports.
Gains some map control as stim/combat shield/+1 attack finish but isn't too aggressive.
Does not allow the protoss to max out without him doing any harass or attacks.
Rough Timings
He will get his engineering bay at 29 supply every game. He gets his 2nd barracks at 24 supply. He begins his armory when +1 armor is at 50 % completion. He begins his second engineering bay when his +1 armor is about 80% complete so he will be able to get +2/+2 at the same time. Gets stim as soon as possible. Works off of one refinery until he gets his factory, then he will get his 3 other refineries. If he scouts colossus (even though he didn't in game 2, he will make double starports, 1 reason he is behind on vikings due to his preference of medivacs and in game 2 his lack of tech, preferring 5 rax before getting a factory.)
Transitions
Thorzain can do a few transitions after his marauder expansion, in game 2 he did a 5 barracks before factory play and then pushed out with a massive amount of marines and a few marauders.
In game 1+4 he did a standard transition into adding 2 more barracks (totaling 3 rax) and got a factory as well as a starport, allowing him to speed his tech up.
Conclusion
Thorzain's build is similar to that of flash's build of brood war, focusing on getting upgrades and then controlling the map. He banks on his opponent not matching him in upgrades and even if they do match his upgrades he will try to out micro them or out macro them. Thorzain's build is a very effective way of playing bio in TvP as you are not blindly getting upgrades at the cost of your army and you are safe for the most part. Once he gets his upgrades going he gains confidence to move out and will prefer to get marines early game to get his upgrades sooner while not compensating his army or economy. Overall his builds are not set in stone but are a series of timings and a style not a specific build.
On April 27 2011 06:28 Frequencyy wrote: After watching Thorzain's games against MC I was so shocked by his TvP prowess that I decided to analyze each replay in the series to see his style and analyze it for myself and now of course Teamliquid.
Key Notes of Thorzain's Play:
He goes for a maurauder expansion that is unlike most others, he makes one marauder and one marine before his expansion, he gets enough for 50 gas, taking 2 off gas after his techlab goes down then gets another 25 gas for a single marauder, this allows him to get an expansion quicker then most marauder expansions, as typically players get a few marauders before grabbing their expansion.
He does not keep making marauders after the initial tech lab add-on this is so he can make more marines, and marines are much less expensive than a 100/25 marauder, this makes it so he can get a faster stim (to make up for his lack of concussive shells) and so he can get a fast engineering bay as well as his 1/1 upgrades. He does begin making marauders again as his 2nd base is saturated and after he starts +1 attack.
He gets later vikings which is why he will transition into double reactor ports.
Gains some map control as stim/combat shield/+1 attack finish but isn't too aggressive.
Does not allow the protoss to max out without him doing any harass or attacks.
Rough Timings
He will get his engineering bay at 29 supply every game. He gets his 2nd barracks at 24 supply. He begins his armory when +1 armor is at 50 % completion. He begins his second engineering bay when his +1 armor is about 80% complete so he will be able to get +2/+2 at the same time. Gets stim as soon as possible. Works off of one refinery until he gets his factory, then he will get his 3 other refineries. If he scouts colossus (even though he didn't in game 2, he will make double starports, 1 reason he is behind on vikings due to his preference of medivacs and in game 2 his lack of tech, preferring 5 rax before getting a factory.)
Transitions
Thorzain can do a few transitions after his marauder expansion, in game 2 he did a 5 barracks before factory play and then pushed out with a massive amount of marines and a few marauders.
In game 1+4 he did a standard transition into adding 2 more barracks (totaling 3 rax) and got a factory as well as a starport, allowing him to speed his tech up.
Conclusion
Thorzain's build is similar to that of flash's build of brood war, focusing on getting upgrades and then controlling the map. He banks on his opponent not matching him in upgrades and even if they do match his upgrades he will try to out micro them or out macro them. Thorzain's build is a very effective way of playing bio in TvP as you are not blindly getting upgrades at the cost of your army and you are safe for the most part. Once he gets his upgrades going he gains confidence to move out and will prefer to get marines early game to get his upgrades sooner while not compensating his army or economy. Overall his builds are not set in stone but are a series of timings and a style not a specific build.
I thought I was the only person that could see the connection between flashs double armory fact build in BW and thorzains build. An Excellent write up, but when does he make his factory (roughly). Just sometime after his 3rd rax and Ebay, I assume?
Will question you more later, but have to go at the moment, sorry for the lack of detail in my post.
When he does his 5 rax transition he will get his factory around 70 supply and when he does the 3 rax transition he will get his factory around 45, so as you can see a large differential in teching. The 5rax you basically have to pressure with or else you have a whole lot of units doing well...nothing.
Haha that's quite alright for lack of detail, I think that this bio style of play should be adopted more by more pros as it makes for very entertaining games and is more effective.
Upgrades are like the best thing ever. but usually when I watch someone do a double forge the terran just simply can't keep up when he does a double ebay because of the chrono boost so there are still some really strong timings to hit.
On April 27 2011 06:43 LostBLuE wrote: Upgrades are like the best thing ever. but usually when I watch someone do a double forge the terran just simply can't keep up when he does a double ebay because of the chrono boost so there are still some really strong timings to hit.
This could be a very good counter to the timing where the protoss gets an expansion then goes for a huge timing attack with mass gateway units like 6 gateways I believe.
i must say i'm really liking the idea of getting super fast +1 and i'm gonna play with that a bit. i'm worried that 6gate pushes kinda crush 3rax into port but i gotta test that out.. but it looks very good with proper scouting and fast ghosts i think this is a very good build to counter dual forge upgrades from protoss and crushes protoss that doesnt upgrade (like MC)
im more excited about this than his mech build tbh can't wait to test this
On April 27 2011 06:51 PredY wrote: i must say i'm really liking the idea of getting super fast +1 and i'm gonna play with that a bit. i'm worried that 6gate pushes kinda crush 3rax into port but i gotta test that out.. but it looks very good with proper scouting and fast ghosts i think this is a very good build to counter dual forge upgrades from protoss
Ghosts are amazing defensive units against protoss, getting a couple without any upgrades can be really effective, and you can still get a couple ghosts while viking production goes on. Lol sorry I'm commenting on everything posted I just need to get my ideas outt
yeah i believe upgrades+ghosts are absolutely crucial these days in tvp, and scouting as well (especially when P takes his 3rd and if he goes collosi or not because there are some timings you want to pursue)
On April 27 2011 06:51 PredY wrote: i must say i'm really liking the idea of getting super fast +1 and i'm gonna play with that a bit. i'm worried that 6gate pushes kinda crush 3rax into port but i gotta test that out.. but it looks very good with proper scouting and fast ghosts i think this is a very good build to counter dual forge upgrades from protoss
Ghosts are amazing defensive units against protoss, getting a couple without any upgrades can be really effective, and you can still get a couple ghosts while viking production goes on. Lol sorry I'm commenting on everything posted I just need to get my ideas outt
Wow, thanks for analyzing his build for us. You bring up some very good points.
I've never had luck for a fast ghost for defense. It always kills by teching to SP. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
You don't want to rush for ghosts more like get a few ghosts around 80-90 supply, you can do your standard vikings mmm ball but adding ghosts for defenses is so nice. Strelok did it in the NASL against ACE and managed to hold off his strong 2 colossus timing push with only like 2-4 vikings and 3 ghosts and his mmm ball. However you want a nice concave to beat the push otherwise you're mmm will get roasted and your ghosts will have been all for naught. Also don't bother researching upgrades for them until late game. Especially with this build if you're incorporating ghosts AND vikings you will want to cut the 2nd starport to maintain your army eco and upgrades while have mmm ghost viking
On April 27 2011 07:29 Antisocialmunky wrote: Thanks My TvP has always been quite mediocre.
I think if you practice this it will help you immensely, makes you understand basic timings of when to get what and is a very nice style to play bio with in general.
You can't afford ghosts in this build because it is already gas intensive enough (if you play against colossus), because you need a lot of vikings and the +2 upgrades pretty fast. I don't think that 5-6 gates are hard to defend because either they come too early and my bunkers + repair should be able to hold, or they come after I have +1 attack, which helps severely.
But I think that you are overanalyzing things (Not talking about the OP specifically). Previously with the Thor build (Don't know if that was you) and now with this. I only did the 5 rax because I thought he would do a 3 gate Void Ray all in when I saw his Void Ray. Then I saw that he had expanded and just thought that I would try to punish it with a 1-1 combat shield + stim marine timing push. It worked out OK. I traded armies and i killed 4-5 probes.
I make the marines early game because marauders are too "time effective". 2 pop 100 minerals every 30 seconds compared to 1 pop 50 minerals every 25 seconds, and that I need the gas for upgrades/tech. They are more versatile than marauders in the early game imo.
There are some 2 base builds that can be somewhat scary if you are caught completely off guard, but I didnt play against anything that "Oh, he did this build, I lose now." pushes.
On April 27 2011 07:59 Thorzain wrote: You can't afford ghosts in this build because it is already gas intensive enough (if you play against colossus), because you need a lot of vikings and the +2 upgrades pretty fast. I don't think that 5-6 gates are hard to defend because either they come too early and my bunkers + repair should be able to hold, or they come after I have +1 attack, which helps severely.
But I think that you are overanalyzing things (Not talking about the OP specifically). Previously with the Thor build (Don't know if that was you) and now with this. I only did the 5 rax because I thought he would do a 3 gate Void Ray all in when I saw his Void Ray. Then I saw that he had expanded and just thought that I would try to punish it with a 1-1 combat shield + stim marine timing push. It worked out OK. I traded armies and i killed 4-5 probes.
I make the marines early game because marauders are too "time effective". 2 pop 100 minerals every 30 seconds compared to 1 pop 50 minerals every 25 seconds, and that I need the gas for upgrades/tech. They are more versatile than marauders in the early game imo.
There are some 2 base builds that can be somewhat scary if you are caught completely off guard, but I didnt play against anything that "Oh, he did this build, I lose now." pushes.
omggg dude it's an honor for you to comment or even look at this threaddd <3 lmao. I didn't do the thor build analysis, I just did this because I wanted to share what your style appeared to be like in the VODS v Mc and to show people your style and how I am definitely gonna start trying to copy. ALso are marines more effective against the likes of 4gates?
If I remember right, Thorzain started his Ebay and +1 before even making a third rax in the game on metalopolis, which seems really risky to me. Any Protoss aggression would crush this in my eyes as it is already hard to defend sometimes even with 3 rax. But on the other hand, I found that you have to get some sort of army advantage to be able to fight the toss army, which would either mean ultra fast upgrades like mentioned or going 5 rax before factory to secure map control, put on pressure before Colossus are out (which is a really strong timing) and take a fast third. When that is up get double ebay. In my experience getting a faster ghost is much more effective than trying to out-upgrade the Protoss which will really hurt your army size.
Will be mixing in this strategy in my own personal TvP on larger maps for sure. The key is undoubtedly not just the early upgrades, but the early upgrades while being able to both mass and tech - very tight "general build order."
On April 27 2011 09:11 Aquila- wrote: If I remember right, Thorzain started his Ebay and +1 before even making a third rax in the game on metalopolis, which seems really risky to me. Any Protoss aggression would crush this in my eyes as it is already hard to defend sometimes even with 3 rax. But on the other hand, I found that you have to get some sort of army advantage to be able to fight the toss army, which would either mean ultra fast upgrades like mentioned or going 5 rax before factory to secure map control, put on pressure before Colossus are out (which is a really strong timing) and take a fast third. When that is up get double ebay. In my experience getting a faster ghost is much more effective than trying to out-upgrade the Protoss which will really hurt your army size.
Have you actually tried the build? It flows quite nicely if you follow the timings, and besides he didn't get double before his third rax in the game on metal because I've seen all the games he went bio at least 5 times. He makes marines early on to get the upgrades (which are good anyway) and mixes the occassional marauders and it really isn't a big deal as you have the tempo advantage when your +2/+2 is up as long as he has no +2/+2 but upgrades are nice anyway and you can always drop to harass bro.
... and besides he didn't get double before his third rax in the game on metal ...
I did not say he got double ebay before his third rax, I said he got 1 and started +1 before it, so he stays longer on only 2 rax than usual, which would in my opinion lead to insta death on ladder.
Very nice OP=) made similar observations upon rewatching the entire series a couple of days ago. Will be using the general timings of this build to change up my bio play for sure.
While maybe not quite as safe compared to a more standard marauder expansion, I find it hard to believe any early aggression on a sufficiently large map should prove to be unsurmountable given good scouting and proper bunker placement? The early engi-bay certainly makes it alot more safe against DT openings. As for cutting your army value in favor of getting the quick upgrades I think it's mitigated by the fact that toss can't really afford to get that far behind on his own upgrades (as the games versus MC showed).
On April 28 2011 06:15 Tenspeed wrote: Very nice OP=) made similar observations upon rewatching the entire series a couple of days ago. Will be using the general timings of this build to change up my bio play for sure.
While maybe not quite as safe compared to a more standard marauder expansion, I find it hard to believe any early aggression on a sufficiently large map should prove to be unsurmountable given good scouting and proper bunker placement? The early engi-bay certainly makes it alot more safe against DT openings. As for cutting your army value in favor of getting the quick upgrades I think it's mitigated by the fact that toss can't really afford to get that far behind on his own upgrades (as the games versus MC showed).
Hm I just did this build on ladder on backwater gulch (not the diagnol positions, the horizontal positions) and I held off his 4 gate quite easily, I'm not sure if the stim should finish before a 4gate attack, (I don't know if my opponent knew the actual timing) but it kicked in for the 2nd wave so it was quite easy, then I just pushed out of my base and rolled over his army after holding 2waves resulting in his rage quit, all the while running off 1 base and researching stim as well as +1
EPT
can't wait to test this
