After watching Thorzain's games against MC I was so shocked by his TvP prowess that I decided to analyze each replay in the series to see his style and analyze it for myself and now of course Teamliquid.
Key Notes of Thorzain's Play:
He goes for a maurauder expansion that is unlike most others, he makes one marauder and one marine before his expansion, he gets enough for 50 gas, taking 2 off gas after his techlab goes down then gets another 25 gas for a single marauder, this allows him to get an expansion quicker then most marauder expansions, as typically players get a few marauders before grabbing their expansion.
He does not keep making marauders after the initial tech lab add-on this is so he can make more marines, and marines are much less expensive than a 100/25 marauder, this makes it so he can get a faster stim (to make up for his lack of concussive shells) and so he can get a fast engineering bay as well as his 1/1 upgrades. He does begin making marauders again as his 2nd base is saturated and after he starts +1 attack.
He gets later vikings which is why he will transition into double reactor ports.
Gains some map control as stim/combat shield/+1 attack finish but isn't too aggressive.
Does not allow the protoss to max out without him doing any harass or attacks.
Rough Timings
He will get his engineering bay at 29 supply every game. He gets his 2nd barracks at 24 supply. He begins his armory when +1 armor is at 50 % completion. He begins his second engineering bay when his +1 armor is about 80% complete so he will be able to get +2/+2 at the same time. Gets stim as soon as possible. Works off of one refinery until he gets his factory, then he will get his 3 other refineries. If he scouts colossus (even though he didn't in game 2, he will make double starports, 1 reason he is behind on vikings due to his preference of medivacs and in game 2 his lack of tech, preferring 5 rax before getting a factory.)
Transitions
Thorzain can do a few transitions after his marauder expansion, in game 2 he did a 5 barracks before factory play and then pushed out with a massive amount of marines and a few marauders.
In game 1+4 he did a standard transition into adding 2 more barracks (totaling 3 rax) and got a factory as well as a starport, allowing him to speed his tech up.
Conclusion
Thorzain's build is similar to that of flash's build of brood war, focusing on getting upgrades and then controlling the map. He banks on his opponent not matching him in upgrades and even if they do match his upgrades he will try to out micro them or out macro them. Thorzain's build is a very effective way of playing bio in TvP as you are not blindly getting upgrades at the cost of your army and you are safe for the most part. Once he gets his upgrades going he gains confidence to move out and will prefer to get marines early game to get his upgrades sooner while not compensating his army or economy. Overall his builds are not set in stone but are a series of timings and a style not a specific build.
On April 27 2011 06:28 Frequencyy wrote: After watching Thorzain's games against MC I was so shocked by his TvP prowess that I decided to analyze each replay in the series to see his style and analyze it for myself and now of course Teamliquid.
Key Notes of Thorzain's Play:
He goes for a maurauder expansion that is unlike most others, he makes one marauder and one marine before his expansion, he gets enough for 50 gas, taking 2 off gas after his techlab goes down then gets another 25 gas for a single marauder, this allows him to get an expansion quicker then most marauder expansions, as typically players get a few marauders before grabbing their expansion.
He does not keep making marauders after the initial tech lab add-on this is so he can make more marines, and marines are much less expensive than a 100/25 marauder, this makes it so he can get a faster stim (to make up for his lack of concussive shells) and so he can get a fast engineering bay as well as his 1/1 upgrades. He does begin making marauders again as his 2nd base is saturated and after he starts +1 attack.
He gets later vikings which is why he will transition into double reactor ports.
Gains some map control as stim/combat shield/+1 attack finish but isn't too aggressive.
Does not allow the protoss to max out without him doing any harass or attacks.
Rough Timings
He will get his engineering bay at 29 supply every game. He gets his 2nd barracks at 24 supply. He begins his armory when +1 armor is at 50 % completion. He begins his second engineering bay when his +1 armor is about 80% complete so he will be able to get +2/+2 at the same time. Gets stim as soon as possible. Works off of one refinery until he gets his factory, then he will get his 3 other refineries. If he scouts colossus (even though he didn't in game 2, he will make double starports, 1 reason he is behind on vikings due to his preference of medivacs and in game 2 his lack of tech, preferring 5 rax before getting a factory.)
Transitions
Thorzain can do a few transitions after his marauder expansion, in game 2 he did a 5 barracks before factory play and then pushed out with a massive amount of marines and a few marauders.
In game 1+4 he did a standard transition into adding 2 more barracks (totaling 3 rax) and got a factory as well as a starport, allowing him to speed his tech up.
Conclusion
Thorzain's build is similar to that of flash's build of brood war, focusing on getting upgrades and then controlling the map. He banks on his opponent not matching him in upgrades and even if they do match his upgrades he will try to out micro them or out macro them. Thorzain's build is a very effective way of playing bio in TvP as you are not blindly getting upgrades at the cost of your army and you are safe for the most part. Once he gets his upgrades going he gains confidence to move out and will prefer to get marines early game to get his upgrades sooner while not compensating his army or economy. Overall his builds are not set in stone but are a series of timings and a style not a specific build.
I thought I was the only person that could see the connection between flashs double armory fact build in BW and thorzains build. An Excellent write up, but when does he make his factory (roughly). Just sometime after his 3rd rax and Ebay, I assume?
Will question you more later, but have to go at the moment, sorry for the lack of detail in my post.
When he does his 5 rax transition he will get his factory around 70 supply and when he does the 3 rax transition he will get his factory around 45, so as you can see a large differential in teching. The 5rax you basically have to pressure with or else you have a whole lot of units doing well...nothing.
Haha that's quite alright for lack of detail, I think that this bio style of play should be adopted more by more pros as it makes for very entertaining games and is more effective.
Upgrades are like the best thing ever. but usually when I watch someone do a double forge the terran just simply can't keep up when he does a double ebay because of the chrono boost so there are still some really strong timings to hit.
On April 27 2011 06:43 LostBLuE wrote: Upgrades are like the best thing ever. but usually when I watch someone do a double forge the terran just simply can't keep up when he does a double ebay because of the chrono boost so there are still some really strong timings to hit.
This could be a very good counter to the timing where the protoss gets an expansion then goes for a huge timing attack with mass gateway units like 6 gateways I believe.
i must say i'm really liking the idea of getting super fast +1 and i'm gonna play with that a bit. i'm worried that 6gate pushes kinda crush 3rax into port but i gotta test that out.. but it looks very good with proper scouting and fast ghosts i think this is a very good build to counter dual forge upgrades from protoss and crushes protoss that doesnt upgrade (like MC)
im more excited about this than his mech build tbh can't wait to test this
On April 27 2011 06:51 PredY wrote: i must say i'm really liking the idea of getting super fast +1 and i'm gonna play with that a bit. i'm worried that 6gate pushes kinda crush 3rax into port but i gotta test that out.. but it looks very good with proper scouting and fast ghosts i think this is a very good build to counter dual forge upgrades from protoss
Ghosts are amazing defensive units against protoss, getting a couple without any upgrades can be really effective, and you can still get a couple ghosts while viking production goes on. Lol sorry I'm commenting on everything posted I just need to get my ideas outt
yeah i believe upgrades+ghosts are absolutely crucial these days in tvp, and scouting as well (especially when P takes his 3rd and if he goes collosi or not because there are some timings you want to pursue)
On April 27 2011 06:51 PredY wrote: i must say i'm really liking the idea of getting super fast +1 and i'm gonna play with that a bit. i'm worried that 6gate pushes kinda crush 3rax into port but i gotta test that out.. but it looks very good with proper scouting and fast ghosts i think this is a very good build to counter dual forge upgrades from protoss
Ghosts are amazing defensive units against protoss, getting a couple without any upgrades can be really effective, and you can still get a couple ghosts while viking production goes on. Lol sorry I'm commenting on everything posted I just need to get my ideas outt
Wow, thanks for analyzing his build for us. You bring up some very good points.
I've never had luck for a fast ghost for defense. It always kills by teching to SP. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
You don't want to rush for ghosts more like get a few ghosts around 80-90 supply, you can do your standard vikings mmm ball but adding ghosts for defenses is so nice. Strelok did it in the NASL against ACE and managed to hold off his strong 2 colossus timing push with only like 2-4 vikings and 3 ghosts and his mmm ball. However you want a nice concave to beat the push otherwise you're mmm will get roasted and your ghosts will have been all for naught. Also don't bother researching upgrades for them until late game. Especially with this build if you're incorporating ghosts AND vikings you will want to cut the 2nd starport to maintain your army eco and upgrades while have mmm ghost viking
On April 27 2011 07:29 Antisocialmunky wrote: Thanks My TvP has always been quite mediocre.
I think if you practice this it will help you immensely, makes you understand basic timings of when to get what and is a very nice style to play bio with in general.
You can't afford ghosts in this build because it is already gas intensive enough (if you play against colossus), because you need a lot of vikings and the +2 upgrades pretty fast. I don't think that 5-6 gates are hard to defend because either they come too early and my bunkers + repair should be able to hold, or they come after I have +1 attack, which helps severely.
But I think that you are overanalyzing things (Not talking about the OP specifically). Previously with the Thor build (Don't know if that was you) and now with this. I only did the 5 rax because I thought he would do a 3 gate Void Ray all in when I saw his Void Ray. Then I saw that he had expanded and just thought that I would try to punish it with a 1-1 combat shield + stim marine timing push. It worked out OK. I traded armies and i killed 4-5 probes.
I make the marines early game because marauders are too "time effective". 2 pop 100 minerals every 30 seconds compared to 1 pop 50 minerals every 25 seconds, and that I need the gas for upgrades/tech. They are more versatile than marauders in the early game imo.
There are some 2 base builds that can be somewhat scary if you are caught completely off guard, but I didnt play against anything that "Oh, he did this build, I lose now." pushes.
On April 27 2011 07:59 Thorzain wrote: You can't afford ghosts in this build because it is already gas intensive enough (if you play against colossus), because you need a lot of vikings and the +2 upgrades pretty fast. I don't think that 5-6 gates are hard to defend because either they come too early and my bunkers + repair should be able to hold, or they come after I have +1 attack, which helps severely.
But I think that you are overanalyzing things (Not talking about the OP specifically). Previously with the Thor build (Don't know if that was you) and now with this. I only did the 5 rax because I thought he would do a 3 gate Void Ray all in when I saw his Void Ray. Then I saw that he had expanded and just thought that I would try to punish it with a 1-1 combat shield + stim marine timing push. It worked out OK. I traded armies and i killed 4-5 probes.
I make the marines early game because marauders are too "time effective". 2 pop 100 minerals every 30 seconds compared to 1 pop 50 minerals every 25 seconds, and that I need the gas for upgrades/tech. They are more versatile than marauders in the early game imo.
There are some 2 base builds that can be somewhat scary if you are caught completely off guard, but I didnt play against anything that "Oh, he did this build, I lose now." pushes.
omggg dude it's an honor for you to comment or even look at this threaddd <3 lmao. I didn't do the thor build analysis, I just did this because I wanted to share what your style appeared to be like in the VODS v Mc and to show people your style and how I am definitely gonna start trying to copy. ALso are marines more effective against the likes of 4gates?
If I remember right, Thorzain started his Ebay and +1 before even making a third rax in the game on metalopolis, which seems really risky to me. Any Protoss aggression would crush this in my eyes as it is already hard to defend sometimes even with 3 rax. But on the other hand, I found that you have to get some sort of army advantage to be able to fight the toss army, which would either mean ultra fast upgrades like mentioned or going 5 rax before factory to secure map control, put on pressure before Colossus are out (which is a really strong timing) and take a fast third. When that is up get double ebay. In my experience getting a faster ghost is much more effective than trying to out-upgrade the Protoss which will really hurt your army size.
Will be mixing in this strategy in my own personal TvP on larger maps for sure. The key is undoubtedly not just the early upgrades, but the early upgrades while being able to both mass and tech - very tight "general build order."
On April 27 2011 09:11 Aquila- wrote: If I remember right, Thorzain started his Ebay and +1 before even making a third rax in the game on metalopolis, which seems really risky to me. Any Protoss aggression would crush this in my eyes as it is already hard to defend sometimes even with 3 rax. But on the other hand, I found that you have to get some sort of army advantage to be able to fight the toss army, which would either mean ultra fast upgrades like mentioned or going 5 rax before factory to secure map control, put on pressure before Colossus are out (which is a really strong timing) and take a fast third. When that is up get double ebay. In my experience getting a faster ghost is much more effective than trying to out-upgrade the Protoss which will really hurt your army size.
Have you actually tried the build? It flows quite nicely if you follow the timings, and besides he didn't get double before his third rax in the game on metal because I've seen all the games he went bio at least 5 times. He makes marines early on to get the upgrades (which are good anyway) and mixes the occassional marauders and it really isn't a big deal as you have the tempo advantage when your +2/+2 is up as long as he has no +2/+2 but upgrades are nice anyway and you can always drop to harass bro.
... and besides he didn't get double before his third rax in the game on metal ...
I did not say he got double ebay before his third rax, I said he got 1 and started +1 before it, so he stays longer on only 2 rax than usual, which would in my opinion lead to insta death on ladder.
Very nice OP=) made similar observations upon rewatching the entire series a couple of days ago. Will be using the general timings of this build to change up my bio play for sure.
While maybe not quite as safe compared to a more standard marauder expansion, I find it hard to believe any early aggression on a sufficiently large map should prove to be unsurmountable given good scouting and proper bunker placement? The early engi-bay certainly makes it alot more safe against DT openings. As for cutting your army value in favor of getting the quick upgrades I think it's mitigated by the fact that toss can't really afford to get that far behind on his own upgrades (as the games versus MC showed).
On April 28 2011 06:15 Tenspeed wrote: Very nice OP=) made similar observations upon rewatching the entire series a couple of days ago. Will be using the general timings of this build to change up my bio play for sure.
While maybe not quite as safe compared to a more standard marauder expansion, I find it hard to believe any early aggression on a sufficiently large map should prove to be unsurmountable given good scouting and proper bunker placement? The early engi-bay certainly makes it alot more safe against DT openings. As for cutting your army value in favor of getting the quick upgrades I think it's mitigated by the fact that toss can't really afford to get that far behind on his own upgrades (as the games versus MC showed).
Hm I just did this build on ladder on backwater gulch (not the diagnol positions, the horizontal positions) and I held off his 4 gate quite easily, I'm not sure if the stim should finish before a 4gate attack, (I don't know if my opponent knew the actual timing) but it kicked in for the 2nd wave so it was quite easy, then I just pushed out of my base and rolled over his army after holding 2waves resulting in his rage quit, all the while running off 1 base and researching stim as well as +1
thanks for this post, its always nice to have additional builds to use :D this build seems to be able to transition really nicely, and i love that the quick upgrades allow you to hold your own late game against the toss thorzain is my new favorite player when it comes to tvp
On April 28 2011 12:46 Tiel wrote: thanks for this post, its always nice to have additional builds to use :D this build seems to be able to transition really nicely, and i love that the quick upgrades allow you to hold your own late game against the toss thorzain is my new favorite player when it comes to tvp
Haha yes we share the same favorite players for TvP. I think we can say that ThorZain is the Titan Slayer
I know that VODs aren't hard to find but you should still include them here. After reading that I have no idea about how his base looks like at ceratin points. You don't say anything about addons, usage of factory, etc.
On April 28 2011 20:04 Cano wrote: I know that VODs aren't hard to find but you should still include them here. After reading that I have no idea about how his base looks like at ceratin points. You don't say anything about addons, usage of factory, etc.
Hm good idea, I will post the links to the videos, they are in teamliquid.net's youtube channel but for you guys I will do it. Thanks for the input, the addons really aren't that important in my opinion though, and he doesn't use the factory at all except maybe a reactor port switch but it's not really build more so a style to play.
On April 27 2011 07:59 Thorzain wrote: I only did the 5 rax because I thought he would do a 3 gate Void Ray all in when I saw his Void Ray. Then I saw that he had expanded and just thought that I would try to punish it with a 1-1 combat shield + stim marine timing push. It worked out OK. I traded armies and i killed 4-5 probes.
I make the marines early game because marauders are too "time effective". 2 pop 100 minerals every 30 seconds compared to 1 pop 50 minerals every 25 seconds, and that I need the gas for upgrades/tech. They are more versatile than marauders in the early game imo.
There are some 2 base builds that can be somewhat scary if you are caught completely off guard, but I didnt play against anything that "Oh, he did this build, I lose now." pushes.
That's the difference between an attempt to learn a build/style and truly owning it.
OP is a great breakdown of a specific iteration of an effective style, but as Thorzain's gnerous enough to point out, it's only an execution of some much broader goals.
On April 27 2011 07:59 Thorzain wrote: I only did the 5 rax because I thought he would do a 3 gate Void Ray all in when I saw his Void Ray. Then I saw that he had expanded and just thought that I would try to punish it with a 1-1 combat shield + stim marine timing push. It worked out OK. I traded armies and i killed 4-5 probes.
I make the marines early game because marauders are too "time effective". 2 pop 100 minerals every 30 seconds compared to 1 pop 50 minerals every 25 seconds, and that I need the gas for upgrades/tech. They are more versatile than marauders in the early game imo.
There are some 2 base builds that can be somewhat scary if you are caught completely off guard, but I didnt play against anything that "Oh, he did this build, I lose now." pushes.
That's the difference between an attempt to learn a build/style and truly owning it.
OP is a great breakdown of a specific iteration of an effective style, but as Thorzain's gnerous enough to point out, it's only an execution of some much broader goals.
Indeed but can someone tell me what an OP is, I'm new to the forums lol.
On April 27 2011 07:59 Thorzain wrote: I only did the 5 rax because I thought he would do a 3 gate Void Ray all in when I saw his Void Ray. Then I saw that he had expanded and just thought that I would try to punish it with a 1-1 combat shield + stim marine timing push. It worked out OK. I traded armies and i killed 4-5 probes.
I make the marines early game because marauders are too "time effective". 2 pop 100 minerals every 30 seconds compared to 1 pop 50 minerals every 25 seconds, and that I need the gas for upgrades/tech. They are more versatile than marauders in the early game imo.
There are some 2 base builds that can be somewhat scary if you are caught completely off guard, but I didnt play against anything that "Oh, he did this build, I lose now." pushes.
That's the difference between an attempt to learn a build/style and truly owning it.
OP is a great breakdown of a specific iteration of an effective style, but as Thorzain's gnerous enough to point out, it's only an execution of some much broader goals.
Indeed but can someone tell me what an OP is, I'm new to the forums lol.
On April 27 2011 07:59 Thorzain wrote: I only did the 5 rax because I thought he would do a 3 gate Void Ray all in when I saw his Void Ray. Then I saw that he had expanded and just thought that I would try to punish it with a 1-1 combat shield + stim marine timing push. It worked out OK. I traded armies and i killed 4-5 probes.
I make the marines early game because marauders are too "time effective". 2 pop 100 minerals every 30 seconds compared to 1 pop 50 minerals every 25 seconds, and that I need the gas for upgrades/tech. They are more versatile than marauders in the early game imo.
There are some 2 base builds that can be somewhat scary if you are caught completely off guard, but I didnt play against anything that "Oh, he did this build, I lose now." pushes.
That's the difference between an attempt to learn a build/style and truly owning it.
OP is a great breakdown of a specific iteration of an effective style, but as Thorzain's gnerous enough to point out, it's only an execution of some much broader goals.
Indeed but can someone tell me what an OP is, I'm new to the forums lol.
Just a quick note, he never takes 2 guys off gas. He only ever has 1 guy in gas from the start of the Refinery all the way until the first Marauder comes out. After that he gets 2 guys in there so he can get Stim at the right time.
The only reason it looks like he's taking guys out of gas in some of the VODs is because he puts 2 more SCVs in there when the scouting Probe reaches his base to trick the Protoss into thinking he's going a tech build. As soon as the Probe is taken out/leaves, he instantly takes them out of gas.
It's a very, very strong and safe build. When you push out at 2/2 if they have been going for Colossus, your army should destroy his Gateway units allowing you to rush up and take out the Colossus. If he's been double Forging you're on more or less the same level, but I feel Bio does pretty well against Gateway units anyways unless you're very behind in upgrades (which you won't be). Any sort of DT/Void Ray opening and as long as you did not take substantial damage from the harass, you just push across the map and win.
I don't want to derail, but I was equally impressed by his TvZ against fruitdealer (double expanding!). His mech build against Tyler was pretty impressive too. The guy is like a box of chocolates...awesome.
On April 27 2011 07:59 Thorzain wrote: I only did the 5 rax because I thought he would do a 3 gate Void Ray all in when I saw his Void Ray. Then I saw that he had expanded and just thought that I would try to punish it with a 1-1 combat shield + stim marine timing push. It worked out OK. I traded armies and i killed 4-5 probes.
I make the marines early game because marauders are too "time effective". 2 pop 100 minerals every 30 seconds compared to 1 pop 50 minerals every 25 seconds, and that I need the gas for upgrades/tech. They are more versatile than marauders in the early game imo.
There are some 2 base builds that can be somewhat scary if you are caught completely off guard, but I didnt play against anything that "Oh, he did this build, I lose now." pushes.
That's the difference between an attempt to learn a build/style and truly owning it.
OP is a great breakdown of a specific iteration of an effective style, but as Thorzain's gnerous enough to point out, it's only an execution of some much broader goals.
Indeed but can someone tell me what an OP is, I'm new to the forums lol.
OP: Opening Post, Original Post either works.
or
Over Powered =P
ohhhh okay okay, ik OP meant overpowered haha
Also my name... it was chosen out of a hat. My parents were weird like that.
On April 29 2011 11:11 statikg wrote: You guys are obsessing way to much over the BO, just take note of the composition that worked and give it your own spin.
Correct, as I said in the OP and as thorzain said in his post this is not a build, the opening yes, but it's basically his modified marauder opening this is a STYLE I cannot stress this enough.
Okay, been running this build (or style rather, although I mimic thorzains bo pretty closely for the first few minutes) since I saw the series vs MC and thought I'd share some of my results/things I've learned:
Playing on a diamond level, I'm currently 8-0 vs P (using this style, mind you there have been some losses on close-positions metal where 1 marauder expand simply isn't viable.) The P builds I've been going up against have ranged from 3gate aggression, 2gate, 4gate, 1gate fe, 2gate robo, yada yada. I'm expecting the results to even out somewhat, especially against master tosses but it's a fairly promising start. Some builds I'm yet to face but looking forward to test this build against are: naniwa build, 6gate, general adelscott-style gateway play.
Things I've learned so far: 1. Place your bunkers smartly, also consider placing your engibay or another structure close by your ramp to prevent P running past your bunkers. (Here I'm assuming you built your expand by your nat) 2. Be careful about the timing on your first 4 raxes, the upgrade-heavy style takes some getting used to in terms of when you have to add more raxes before establishing that trust fund. 3. If he goes fast colossi, you WILL need 2 reactored starports as noted in the OP. 4. Be METICULOUS about the timings on the upgrades, especially the fast stim which is KEY in holding off alot the early aggression. 5. If your opponent is teching hard, don't be afraid to make timing attacks before 2/2 hits. 6. If he's going colossus, keep a close count on those bad boys, if you overcommit to vikings, which is really easy running 2ports, while he does a tech switch you're in a bad seat.
I realise alot of these points really apply to bio-play in general and if you feel everything I said is a blatant truism please accept my apologies
I was wondering whether a Thor-based composition would leave many Terran susceptible to counter-attacks on larger maps and if so do Terran lose out on the base trade.
I remember watching ThorZain use this build effectively on Xelnaga Caverns and on Crossfire in his TL3 matches vs Liquid Tyler and OGSMC however I cannot recall him using this build on larger maps. If I recall correctly ThorZain did not use this build on Tal'Darim against OGSMC and went for a more "standard" bio build.
In general how does one compensate for the immobility of mech (especially Thors) on larger maps?
On May 05 2011 04:46 Tenspeed wrote: Things I've learned so far: 1. Place your bunkers smartly, also consider placing your engibay or another structure close by your ramp to prevent P running past your bunkers. (Here I'm assuming you built your expand by your nat) 2. Be careful about the timing on your first 4 raxes, the upgrade-heavy style takes some getting used to in terms of when you have to add more raxes before establishing that trust fund. 3. If he goes fast colossi, you WILL need 2 reactored starports as noted in the OP. 4. Be METICULOUS about the timings on the upgrades, especially the fast stim which is KEY in holding off alot the early aggression. 5. If your opponent is teching hard, don't be afraid to make timing attacks before 2/2 hits. 6. If he's going colossus, keep a close count on those bad boys, if you overcommit to vikings, which is really easy running 2ports, while he does a tech switch you're in a bad seat.
Thank you sooo much for these tips! I've also been playing this style now recently, but i haven't got much time to try it out yet. So this is much approved!
On May 05 2011 05:28 TG_CryMeAReaver wrote: I apologize I thought I was posting under the "[D] Thorzain Build TvP build" thread I read earlier this morning
You can always edit your post so we don't have to read through it
Has anyone gone up against some two base all ins against this build? Because all your gas is used on upgrades and tech after expanding, how have you dealt with aggressive two base colossus or gateway builds? Is there any deviation to the build at all to help prevent it? Also, is there a good way to scout if a protoss is going for a big two base timing?
On May 07 2011 08:23 Quant wrote: Has anyone gone up against some two base all ins against this build? Because all your gas is used on upgrades and tech after expanding, how have you dealt with aggressive two base colossus or gateway builds? Is there any deviation to the build at all to help prevent it? Also, is there a good way to scout if a protoss is going for a big two base timing?
Hm thorzain himself said there are some scary 2 base allins but I imagine you should be able to hold with efficient scouting. If you can get your upgrades started then you should be fine and if you scout colossus you can always do 2port vikings. Scouting is pretty essential to this build as you want to know if you should make vikings or ghosts and when it is safe to get your third and if you need to delay your upgrades.
Has anyone used this style against heavy Immortal play?
I've played a few games against players who went fast zealot charge with pretty heavy immortals/ sentry and sunk the leftover minerals into zealots, and were able to hold off the initial push.
In practice, I tried a heavier marine comp, but zealots sorta rape that, but it seems that Marauders aren't viable since immortals negate the bulk of their damage, regardless of upgrades.
My question would be, 1) how do you definitively know if a player is sticking with Immortals and not getting a few for defense, and 2) what the approproiate response without massively changing tech ofc.
I suppose more drop play to abuse the immortal's immobility, and maybe delay +2/+2 to get ghosts?
Off the top of my head I'd say ghosts, because the infantry upgrades scale well and they do bonus damage to light. Maybe even banshees because they're not getting stalkers. It also gives you another good avenue to harass. I feel as though protosses have been dealing with drops so much since beta that they know how to deal with them so well and are really ineffective against good players.
I also have lots of trouble scouting protosses as well. Good players hide their beefy units from scans.nothing makes me rage harder than scanning to see 1 colossus, then once I get to their base half a minute later theres 4 tearing up my army and I'm left with retreating after losing some of my army for free.
I think a good way to scout might be to just drop 1 marine and stim it around the main to see tech.
On May 08 2011 08:29 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Has anyone used this style against heavy Immortal play?
I've played a few games against players who went fast zealot charge with pretty heavy immortals/ sentry and sunk the leftover minerals into zealots, and were able to hold off the initial push.
In practice, I tried a heavier marine comp, but zealots sorta rape that, but it seems that Marauders aren't viable since immortals negate the bulk of their damage, regardless of upgrades.
My question would be, 1) how do you definitively know if a player is sticking with Immortals and not getting a few for defense, and 2) what the approproiate response without massively changing tech ofc.
I suppose more drop play to abuse the immortal's immobility, and maybe delay +2/+2 to get ghosts?
Drop play is a must regardless of the protoss using immortals or not. You really can't know if he's definitely massing immortals or not, the biggest thing I can tell you is to scout the front before you engage him if you so choose to engage him after you see his army. The appropriate response to immortals/zealots/sentry composition is ghosts for sure.
Hi guys, I really appreciate all of the information provided. I was hoping to receive some serious advice on the following two situations.
a) How do I hold off a 4-gate rush with 1 bunker and a few units using this build? Any specific tips on the dynamics of that battle would be greatly appreciated.
b) Is this build not viable on small maps?
I want to develop 1 strategy vs. terran/vs. protoss/vs. zerg and master them. I want to know my system inside and out. Is this worth investing into?
P.S. I play gold divison.
P.S. My current strategy vs. protoss is a 2 rax early pressure transition into MMM, but I have no rhyme or reason for when I expand and I lose every game that goes into the later stages. The upgrades are very appealing to me in this build.
Oh snap that's one hell of a necro, but I used to play this build anyways so I might be able to help.
a) You hold off a 4 gate rush by scouting it. Once you scout it, you throw up another bunker or two. If you just build one bunker and find yourself being 4gated, good luck, you've probably lost.
Sending an SCV to their natural at around 5-6 minutes to check their expo is a good idea. If there is none, go up their ramp and check the number of gates (if you can) or the amount of gas intensive units he has. If he has little to no sentries, throw up a second bunker, as he is most likely 4gating you.
b) Why wouldn't be viable on small maps? Bio is playable basically, on all maps.
Thanks for the tips deathtrance. I get 4 gated a lot at gold level. I have to be on top of my game in terms of scouting as you have pointed out. Thanks again.
EPT
can't wait to test this
