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motbob
United States12546 Posts
The NASL application VODs thread is being swamped with discussion on this, so I'm making a new thread to keep the other thread on topic.
The question under discussion is whether many Koreans should be invited to the NASL, and whether any Koreans invited should be "top" koreans like MC, MVP, Nestea.
Here's a statement from VT|Pokebunny, who was drawing a lot of flak in the other thread.
Overall, I just think the games with Koreans will be less interesting. Watching several of the very best Koreans dominate while giving a polite interview without forming relationships with foreign players or fans is not something that appeals to me as an American NASL spectator. I welcome Koreans that actively participate in our scene such as Cella, as those are players who have shown their interest in the foreign scene before giant numbers of cash were thrown at them. I mean no insult to Koreans when I say that their English skills coupled with their tendency to keep to themselves will make a tournament that is IMO less entertaining for casual fans and NA diehards over the course of multiple seasons.
NASL has already stated that they want to invite some Koreans, so with that in mind, here's a poll. Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM.
Poll: What should the NASL organizers do?Invite the very best players in the world even if that means very few NA and EU players in the NASL (2192) 65% Invite about 5 of the very top Koreans (881) 26% Invite about 5 Code A level Koreans (208) 6% Other (post in the thread) (84) 2% 3365 total votes Your vote: What should the NASL organizers do? (Vote): Invite about 5 of the very top Koreans
(Vote): Invite about 5 Code A level Koreans
(Vote): Invite the very best players in the world even if that means very few NA and EU players in the NASL
(Vote): Other (post in the thread)
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
Frankly, the best scene right now is clearly the Korean scene. The evidence for this is diverse and extremely convincing. In IEM, players who can generously be considered high Code A material wiped the floor with some of the best players the rest of the world had to offer. In the FXOpen, an international tournament, relative unknowns in the Korean scene oGsHero and TheStC placed first and second. Huk was one of the best players, if not the best player, in North America during the time between the launch of the game and his trip to Korea. He recently qualified for Code S after some struggle, implying that his dominance over the North American scene did not translate to dominance over the Korean scene.
The list goes on. Koreans are simply better right now.
Another thing we need to discuss before proceeding is that the NASL format is very, very favorable to players already in the league. The top 42 34 out of 50 players in an NASL season advance to the next season. So, we can probably assume that players such as MC, MVP, etc would never leave the league.
Given the above, I would be surprised if the NASL invites more than about 5 Koreans, and I would be surprised and disappointed if they were to invite the very top Koreans. I'll explain why.
The TSL is the best international tournament in terms of quality of play. The organizers invited the very best players because they wanted to see the very best play. But the NASL is not the TSL. It has very different goals from the TSL.
Forget the NASL intro video. "The best players the world has ever seen?" If that were their goal, they'd invite 30 Koreans. The NASL's goal is entertainment, and they have a very specific mindset about how to achieve that goal. We've seen that a big part of the league is about drama and storylines.
Inviting the top Koreans will make the NASL worse, for one main reason: the likes of MVP would trash the top foreigners in North America (barring maybe Idra) with no problems at all. It would not be close. If ST.Ace can smash some of the top Europeans without dropping a set, imagine what the very best players in Korea could do. That prospect does not appeal to me as a spectator, and I don't think it's an outcome that the NASL organizers want.
Inviting Koreans in general is problematic because it's difficult to create storylines and drama around them, but that can be mitigated by only inviting Koreans that are unique in some way, other than just being really good. Names that pop up in my head are July, GuineaPig (for his aggression both on the battlefield and in in-game chat), Squirtle, Moon (his play at IEM was like nothing I'd seen before).
So. Invite a few Koreans, ones that have a creative style, or better yet ones that have ties to the foreigner community already (like Cella!)
I can watch GSL if I want to see the best play in the world. I want NASL to have the highest entertainment value possible, and that's why I don't support inviting many Koreans or the best Koreans.
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Invite none, they will dominate
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Sweden33719 Posts
Its retarded.
Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for?
For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL.
Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM.
While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all failed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise.
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Good idea to funnel the flames 
To quote myself:
On March 16 2011 06:34 Saechiis wrote:
Funny how Koreans are being called patriottic when their Starleague is being called "Global" Starleague whilst their American counterpart is named "North American Starleague".
I blame it on the organisers though for not being clear who are supposed to be able to participate and why it is called the North American Starleague when there's going to be lots of non-Americans playing.
If they're going to exclude Koreans (which I'd be surprised if they did) why would Europeans be allowed to play? And if they're going to allow Europeans, but not Koreans, how is that not discrimination?
It seems to me that some second tier American players are getting cold feet. In reality though, if they were really perceived to be contenders for the title, they wouldn't be excluded.
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Well, with the options, I'd have to chose "Invite the very best players in the world even if that means very few NA and EU players in the NASL" though I do hope that the koreans will not pose the majority of the players.
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I say invite 5-10 of the very top koreans.
I agree with limiting the Koreans to somewhat grow the scene but i disagree with the argument that we should do it because they made no effort to intermingle with people in our scene as mentioned in the other thread by Pokebunny. It is also weird to fault them by saying " they just want the money while putting as little effort as possible" because they are professionals and pros play for money. And as Jinro said, basically that's we foreigners did the same by joining GSL ( and leaving when there are greener pastures)
I think the presence of Koreans will be an incentive for pro players to try their best as well as making sure we do not lag behind.
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I'd like if they started off with just a few "lower level"(if there is such a thing) Koreans. Code A types. I honestly would kind of like NASL to be a showcase for westerners until the general skill level rises.
It does feel a little weird to exclude any of them, since ideally, you want every tournament to have the strongest competition possible, but my thought is that if EVERY major tournament is inundated with Koreans people might feel a little discouraged in a way they might not if there's just really good NA or EU players, who most people out here seem to find easier to connect with anyway.
If the skill levels even out a bit I wouldn't mind more and higher level Koreans participating.
edit: I'd rather have as many koreans as want to participate than none at all, though :/
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Given the huge prize pool in NASL, the skill level of the competitors should be nothing but the best. Invite MVP, MC, Nestea, Nada, and Julyzerg.
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The Jinro has spoken.
I saw a post earlier about they are in it for the money which is just ... el oh el. That was pretty low.
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As with most things, I take a rather agnostic approach in that I see the benefit from the various angles that are options and they all have a different appeal that can viable arguments can be made for.
The 2 that are most appealing to me however, fall in the: NO KOREANS (with no exceptions) or Very, very few Koreans (5 tops).
I want to see the North American and European scene thrive. Quite frankly, having a large crop of Koreans who are already ahead of the rest of the world competing only limits the chance of Euro/NA players from succeeding. Winning tournaments and being able to make a legitimate living off of playing e-sports then allows the scene to grow outside of Korea, which should be what everybody wants. The more people who can actually dedicate their time to Starcraft 2 means the chance of closing the gap on Koreans becomes a distinct possibility. Then, when that gap has been closed, then open those types of leagues up to everybody because there is no longer the handicap of being semi-professional because there will be more legitimate professionals.
edit: When I say NO KOREANS, I'm speaking of people who aren't part of the foreign community, so I'd also include the Chinese.
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Just do the equivalent that GSL does... invite a few. Why would you want more Koreans than North Americans playing in a North American League? This league has already shown that North Americans are willing to live together in order to train and get better, so its just a matter of time before the gap closes.
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I think they absolutely deserve some level of representation and to deny them not only hurts the international community in the same ways bnet's region locking has done (which we have raged endlessly over) but leaves NA and EU even further behind when it comes to international competition like WCG.
So many foreigners embraced SC2 when we could no longer compete in BW, now it's like we are already prepared to pack it in and allow ourselves to become second rate once more.
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If they don't want the top Koreans to dominate the tournament, that's a legitimate concern. It makes sense to restrict the number in order to make sure we get to see foreigners, but to say that the top players are uninteresting is silly. The best players' games are the ones which are usually the most entertaining to watch; I disagree with Pokebunny's reasoning.
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Invite some of them or hold open tournaments for the korean scene where they can properly qualify. This tournament should have the highest quality of games which will definatly be provided by not letting some regions not take part of it at all.
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Invite those who postulate for the places. I don`t really think that there should be a precise number of koreans that should be invited. But if it is the case, then the same is to be done with Europeans.
Startale have shown an interest in the foreign scene, and that should be celebrated.
Inviting koreans will spur the players that wants to take this thing called Esports seriously, and those players are the only ones we need. We need players that shows dedication, that shows that this is not a friggin joke.
I dont think IdrA`s gonna cry about the korean invites, because he has the level. The only players that arent comfortable with that are showing their inferior mindset.
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Considering that the GSL makes foreigners fly to Korea to compete (even though its the "Global" Star League), seams fair for the NASL to force anyone who wants to compete to fly to NA and have to go through rounds of elimination. HayprO, even though he was a top foreigner still didnt make it into the first couple of GSL rounds he tried for. Makes sense then that oGsMC should have to get cheesed out of a couple of prelims for the NASL.
Edit: Basically what Im saying is that if a Korean is willing to sacrifice playing in the GSL, and willing to live in the US, then they should be able to play. I would be perfectly happy if the entire tourney was Korean, as long as they had to make the same choice that Huk and Jinro did. To be fair, that would mean that Huk and Jinro couldnt play in the NASL so maybe this would be a bad policy.
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I chose other because, although I don't want to see the nasl dominated by the sheer number of Koreans, I would be more than happy to see 10-15+ of them compete.
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I'd just like to say that a HARD BAN on koreans is not totally necessary. I haven't really decided whether I'd rather see tip top level koreans or code a / low code s koreans were they chosen.
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EPT
