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This thread was sparked by a conversation I had with another poster in another thread as well as a comment from a recent day9 netcast. Day9 said something pretty interesting. Allot of people think they're macroing well, but it's the small things that add up. He told an anecdote about his fiend being 40 food behind him with the same build at the same time in the game.
So, this morning in a thread I was talking to this guy who said his friend was trying the whole "diamond on macro" theory, and was getting majorly screwed up when a stim push got to his base and he would lose every time because he couldn't get the forcefield in the right position and was stuck with
"1 immortal, a few zealots or stalkers, and a sentry"
and the Terran would kill him every time. Further, the poster thought the community was leading astray the new faces of TL with the advice to only focus on macro, that you needed little micro tricks to survive "cheese". While I don't think any zerg who has been 6 pooled will argue that you do need micro a bit every now and then, I felt that this view was flawed, and his friend was learning at a much accelerated rate and once he could account for aggressive 1 base plays, he would skyrocket into higher leagues with his good macro. I decided to test this guy's theory, so I loaded up single player vs the easy AI on the closest positions possible besides steppes; close meta.
Well, I said, First I need to figure out how fast, theoretically, this push is going to happen, and how much shit he's going to have. So I spawned the terran pieces, and went to work. I made some blunders a few times, and quickly restarted, and played the first 2-3 minutes over again, until I executed this build very crisply. I then said to myself, there are 2 timings within a 3 rax. Stim finishing and concussive shell finishing. The much more common varinant would be with concussive, IMO, so I said I'd hit his ramp as concussive shell finished. I wasn't perfect when doing it, but I got some baseline numbers
+ Show Spoiler +@ ~7:00 the attack reaches your ramp w/ 6 marauders, 5 marines, and 2 marauders and 2 marines arriving shortly thereafter. Wonderful.
I then said, you know what, lets try to get the fastest possible push with stim, so I shipped out ealier, with the goal of arriving at his ramp as stim finishes. Here are the numbers
+ Show Spoiler +6:20 with attack reaches you with about 4 marauders and 3 marines with 1 marauder and 2 marines on the way.
I was really crisp with the second one, I wanted to know exactly how fast/powerful this push could potentially be.
I then took his build, and played it for 10 or so minutes from the prospective of a person who wants to macro well, as well as not seen this attack coming. I just chronoed out probes the entire time. These are my numbers
@ 6:20
+ Show Spoiler +-28 probes
-Warpgate and 3rd gate just finished
-robo 1/4 done with one immo
-1 stalker
-2 zealots
-2 sentries
-3 additional gateway units about to be made
@ 7:00
+ Show Spoiler +-Immortal due to pop out any second
-2 sentries
-33 probes
-2 zealots
-3 additional gateway units
-3 gateway units set to arrive in about 8 seconds.
So, looking at the time our protoss hero is having problems is a stim timing. I have a hard time believeing that the terran pushed without concussive shells vs protoss, so I'm leaning toward using the 7:00 timing, and he said he had an immortal, and I got mine pretty fast, and it seems like it comes out right around 7 minutes or so. This is a close to optimized timing for terran, likely this push would be delayed by :30-1:00. Anywho, we'll use the time when the immortal popped.
His friend had:
+ Show Spoiler +1 Immortal
2 Zealots
1 Sentry
I had:
+ Show Spoiler +1 Immortal
2 Sentries
3 zealots
3 of any core-tech gateway unit
3 more set to pop out any second.
In the same period of time, and perhaps less time, his army was only about a third as big as mine. When looking at my 7:00 army vs the terran's 7:00 army, I'm not the least bit worried. When I look at his friends 7:00 army vs the terran's, I'm thinking that looks really scary.
I thought that was really interesting. This player though he had good macro and he was losing just because of cheese, but had he really been macroing decently, even had his opponent been macroing well too, he would have won that fight pretty easily.
I've reformatted this thread for simplicities sake. Here's your chance to help the community out fellow Team Liquid Members. Lower ranked members, choose a simple, common build, and open single player and do it. Stop around 7-8 Minutes. Watch the replay, and pause at the 7:00 Mark.Write down what your food is at, How many workers you have, How many of each unit you have Any relavevent structures/ups, i.e expansions, evolution chambers, upgrades, etc. For instance, say I did a 1 rax FE, adding on barracks and getting 1/1 ups and medivacs. At 7 Minutes, I had x marines, Y medivacs, z scv's, 1/1, stim and combat shield. Make sure to include any major goals you have such as upgrades upcoming expansions, structures, etc, etc, etc
Higher ranked players, if you have some spare time, go through these basic build orders in single player. Follow the same process. The Idea is for lower level players to see the difference really good macro can make at the same time in their games in a timeframe, with the build they're already using. You'll be surprised how big of a lead little patches in you mechanics will gain you. We're hoping to spark players of all calibers to look at their play and ask if better execution could make their play smoother and enjoyable. I'm going to to my best to collect the most well executed and add them into the posts as benchmarks for improvement, push the boundaries, you might improve on the build that high masters player knocked out. Don't be shy, if you think you can beat a posted build, go for it, and set that bar high!
Big Shoutout to Day9, the inspiration for this thread, check out DND 252 for allot of the concepts covered in this thread. Also big shoutouts to anyone who helps with questions, their own examples, or what have you.
Cheers Team Liquid
3 Gate Robo (G-G-R-G)
+ Show Spoiler +7:00 minutes.
57 food
33 Probes
1 immortal, 1 zealot, 5 sentry, 4 stalkers
Chrono Boosts on Probes
3 Gate Expand
+ Show Spoiler +@7:00
58 Supply
6 Sentries
2 Stalkers
3 Zealots
36 Probes
2 Assimilators
Expo @ 29/100
3 Gates
1 Core
2 Gate Robo (G-G-R)
+ Show Spoiler +@7:00
55 supply
1 immortal
5 sentry
2 stalker
1 zealot
1 observer
Rest As Probes (33?)
Chronoboosting Probes
natural expansion around 80%-85% complete
3gate robo (g-r-g-g)
+ Show Spoiler +@7min
33 probes
2obs
4 stalker
2zealots
3 sentries
53 supply
3 Rax Stim/Concussive Timing attack (constant SCV's)
+ Show Spoiler +7:00
55 food
27 SCV's
7 Marauders 7 Marines
Concussive should finish at 7 minutes, stim already done (mine was late b/c of mistake)
3 Rax Stim/Concussive Timing attack (cut SCV's)
+ Show Spoiler +@7:00
56 supply
22 scvs
8 marauders (with 1 80% done)
9 marines (with 1 99% done)
ZvP Roach Hydra:
+ Show Spoiler +@7:00
50 supply
3 Hatches (2 completed and staurated, 3rd started @7:00
2 Queens
Lair & Roach warren slated to finish @ same time (7/8th's complete)
Metabolic Boost Complete
1 spine crawler
2 Gysers Coplete and harvesting
2 zerglings
45 Drones
5 Creep tumors
ZvT Sling/Bling (w/ muta's)
+ Show Spoiler +@7:00
50 Supply
3 2 Hatches
Lair Complete
2 Queens
4 Extractors
2 Zerglings
Metabolic Boost Complete
Baneling Nest Completed
1/8 on Centrifugal Hooks (bling speed)
45 Drones
4 Creep Tumors
15 Hatch Roach (ZvZ)
+ Show Spoiler +@7 Minutes
52 Supply
5 Roaches
4 extractors (2 just started)
2 Evo Chambers (@75%, enough gas to start 1/1 as they complete)
Metabolic Boost Complete (zergling speed)
2 Zerglings
37 Drones
4 Creep Tumors
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Defending a stim push is as much about knowing exactly when it's coming as it is about making enough stuff. Always have a spotter outside his main and outside your own.
I admit, throwing that perfect forcefield can be tough when you let Terran stim out of the fog of war and immediately onto the ramp. But if you are patient and watching, chopping the army is easy.
I like the idea of the post though, I'm definately going to try and refine my 1 gate robo opening tonight and post the results! Doing this kind of work with each of one's respective builds really help because it does the two things you already mentioned: your build will improve and more importantly it will enlighten the possibilities of your opponent (making you less nervous, more capable of scouting and waiting rather than hoping.
Cheers
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I'm not ingame, but I know as a Bronze protoss, I'm generally in mid-40's food by 7:00, which seems to exceed most other bronzes that I have checked. As Terran, lately, I've been at 50-52 unless I screw up, which I haven't seen anyone in bronze compare with yet. Oh, and that includes upgrades like Stim and Concussive.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
I'm sure this will be an eye opener to all the lower league players who think their macro is 'decent'. Good initiative.
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1 gateway and 1 robo can defend any early stim opening.
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On February 10 2011 05:31 Pebbz wrote:
1 gateway and 1 robo can defend any early stim opening.
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Apparently the OP does not know what scouting or sentries are.
User was warned for this post
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On February 10 2011 05:31 Pebbz wrote:
1 gateway and 1 robo can defend any early stim opening.
I believe the point of the thread was to compare the difference in the macro of players of different skill (and thus helping players to learn what openings can potentially have)
But yeah, I think the person should focus on blocking/splitting up the terran force with the forcefield (and using a probe or even an observer if they get one pre-immortal to scout out when the army is moving out and up his ramp), alongside improving macro.
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On February 10 2011 05:26 Kaitlin wrote:
I'm not ingame, but I know as a Bronze protoss, I'm generally in mid-40's food by 7:00, which seems to exceed most other bronzes that I have checked. As Terran, lately, I've been at 50-52 unless I screw up, which I haven't seen anyone in bronze compare with yet. Oh, and that includes upgrades like Stim and Concussive.
Actually that's very good even for diamond level. Depends on the tech path, of course, but still very good.
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If you tell a high master player and a low master player (fresh out of diamond) to do the same build, I'm guessing the lower guy would have 160 supply at the time the higher guy maxes out. Yes, there are many people who think they have good macro when they actually don't, and this is the source of many [H] threads.
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I think my comment would reinforce the idea that macro is important, no? If two production buildings can fend off early pressure that either means Protoss is grossly imba, or constant production out of those buildings can cause you to not die.. at all.
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On February 10 2011 05:47 Pebbz wrote:
I think my comment would reinforce the idea that macro is important, no? If two production buildings can fend off early pressure that either means Protoss is grossly imba, or constant production out of those buildings can cause you to not die.. at all.
It was pointing out a strategy, which has nothing to do with mechanics/macro. This isn't about a build, or a matchup, or even a race. This is about giving the tools to the community to grow in understanding by showing the possibilities of strong mechanics/macro.
Pointing out "This guy could have done this!" has absolutely dick to do with the fact that he was missing out on a whole bunch of units. I'm not mad, trolls will be trolls, but read OP's before posting in the future, please.
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Arisen - I have spoken to this before, created a post on it, attempted to do a guide where I did most of the work. The result each time is that there is not enough community interest in establishing this type of information.
After some further reflection, I think I understand that thinking in terms of x build, y units at z time is just too rigid thinking for the game anywhere but the lowest levels. It is considered unnecessary because of the cardinal rules of macro:
1. Always make workers
2. Never get supply blocked
3. Always produce from your unit structures
4. Keep your money low
5. Always use your macro mechanic when you have the energy (with a slight early game exception for protoss)
On your self analysis these are things you can easily check.
1. Did your CC/Nexus production bar ever stop, even for a second? If it did you could have had more stuff. No it is not ok for small breaks that is the opposite of what "Always" means.
2. Did you get supply blocked for even a second? food cap block?
3. Did your production bar above your unit structures ever stop, even for a second?
4. Did you ever have all your buildings producing and then have money to build another structure?
5. What was your CC/Nexus/Hatch energy?
If people would just understand that you need to make sure you are following all of these rules at the same time to have the maximum army out, and that small mistakes cost a lot of units then they could get better at macro on their own.
Sure no one is perfect, "even IdRa has extra energy on his queens." The better you want to be at this game the closer to perfect your macro needs to be and the more harshly you must evaluate your own play.
It is easy to fall into the trap of thinking that since I am in bronze, it is ok if I get supply blocked for 5-seconds occasionally because my macro is still better than the average bronze player.
It is ok if I miss a production cycle and build and extra supply depot I don't need yet to keep my money low because most bronze players don't spend their money.
It is ok if I take a second gas before I need it, because I was supply blocked, might as well get stim early too so I am keeping my money low.
It is ok if I am on one base till 10 minutes because, I spent all my money so my macro is good.
This thinking works for a while till you start to face players who focus on units and keeping their money low, expanding and their build crisp. Now the band-aids that you have put on your bumps in order to satisfy the rules you favor and ignore the ones that were too much trouble start to lose you games.
So all that really needs to happen is be honest with your self in evaluation of how well you are conforming to the 5-rules and make no allowance for breaking them even in the slightest and your macro will be good. Hell even your expansion timings will start to make more sense.
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oGsMC streamed today and i took a look at his food in a PvT.
At 10 minutes he had about 100 food on two bases and at 15 minutes he had about 175 food with a fourth base going up. Just saying bases to give an idea on how many probes he's making. Most units were gateway units and high templar.
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On February 10 2011 07:08 Eeryck wrote:
Arisen - I have spoken to this before, created a post on it, attempted to do a guide where I did most of the work. The result each time is that there is not enough community interest in establishing this type of information.
After some further reflection, I think I understand that thinking in terms of x build, y units at z time is just too rigid thinking for the game anywhere but the lowest levels. It is considered unnecessary because of the cardinal rules of macro:
1. Always make workers
2. Never get supply blocked
3. Always produce from your unit structures
4. Keep your money low
5. Always use your macro mechanic when you have the energy (with a slight early game exception for protoss)
On your self analysis these are things you can easily check.
1. Did your CC/Nexus production bar ever stop, even for a second? If it did you could have had more stuff. No it is not ok for small breaks that is the opposite of what "Always" means.
2. Did you get supply blocked for even a second? food cap block?
3. Did your production bar above your unit structures ever stop, even for a second?
4. Did you ever have all your buildings producing and then have money to build another structure?
5. What was your CC/Nexus/Hatch energy?
If people would just understand that you need to make sure you are following all of these rules at the same time to have the maximum army out, and that small mistakes cost a lot of units then they could get better at macro on their own.
Sure no one is perfect, "even IdRa has extra energy on his queens." The better you want to be at this game the closer to perfect your macro needs to be and the more harshly you must evaluate your own play.
It is easy to fall into the trap of thinking that since I am in bronze, it is ok if I get supply blocked for 5-seconds occasionally because my macro is still better than the average bronze player.
It is ok if I miss a production cycle and build and extra supply depot I don't need yet to keep my money low because most bronze players don't spend their money.
It is ok if I take a second gas before I need it, because I was supply blocked, might as well get stim early too so I am keeping my money low.
It is ok if I am on one base till 10 minutes because, I spent all my money so my macro is good.
This thinking works for a while till you start to face players who focus on units and keeping their money low, expanding and their build crisp. Now the band-aids that you have put on your bumps in order to satisfy the rules you favor and ignore the ones that were too much trouble start to lose you games.
So all that really needs to happen is be honest with your self in evaluation of how well you are conforming to the 5-rules and make no allowance for breaking them even in the slightest and your macro will be good. Hell even your expansion timings will start to make more sense.
While all this information is accurate, and useful in the application of the purpose of this thread, it does little for the thread itself. The power in this exercise is seeing the power of its application. Doing the exact same thing as me he has 3x as many units at the same time is much more powerful in showing the efficacy of a macro oriented approach toward the game than a method of doing it and saying you'll have more units.
I encourage everyone to participate, with either a question or an example. I refuse to believe that the Team Liquid Community doesn't care enough to give back to it's newer members. Cheers everyone.
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I'm Terran ~2763 points and 124 bonus pool in masters
Had exactly 50 food at 7 min from a FE build. Combat shields about to finish and enough gas for stim.
Edit: and 28 SCVs
Interesting concept. I'm interested to see what others get.
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On February 10 2011 07:19 Arisen wrote:
I refuse to believe that the Team Liquid Community doesn't care enough to give back to it's newer members. Cheers everyone.
Very true. However, I do believe that there is one problem with the TL community - the players in plat-master don't really understand how hard it is to get out of bronze once you've screwed up. I've been stuck at Bronze 1 for about a month because I dropped ~15 games due to my stupid internet T~T - or maybe I just don't play enough.
As for myself, I've been working on my macro a lot - I stopped 4gating after I realized it would get me to perhaps mid-diamond, but I would eventually have to work on macro. At first, I was sure I could climb the ladder quickly and get to silver/gold, but it turns out it's actually a lot more work than I first thought. However, I'm working on it- and I'm hovering at about 50/50 win ratio. Looks like I need more work. 
Now, I have a question. I saw the diamond on macro only thread, and I want to try that. However, I'm hovering around 100W/80L, so I'm probably not going anywhere soon. Even though you probably wouldn't care about my rank, I've been dying to know how long it would take me to get to at least gold.
Would anyone care to help?
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On February 10 2011 07:48 `chain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 07:19 Arisen wrote:
I refuse to believe that the Team Liquid Community doesn't care enough to give back to it's newer members. Cheers everyone. Very true. However, I do believe that there is one problem with the TL community - the players in plat-master don't really understand how hard it is to get out of bronze once you've screwed up. I've been stuck at Bronze 1 for about a month because I dropped ~15 games due to my stupid internet T~T - or maybe I just don't play enough. As for myself, I've been working on my macro a lot - I stopped 4gating after I realized it would get me to perhaps mid-diamond, but I would eventually have to work on macro. At first, I was sure I could climb the ladder quickly and get to silver/gold, but it turns out it's actually a lot more work than I first thought. However, I'm working on it- and I'm hovering at about 50/50 win ratio. Looks like I need more work. Now, I have a question. I saw the diamond on macro only thread, and I want to try that. However, I'm hovering around 100W/80L, so I'm probably not going anywhere soon. Even though you probably wouldn't care about my rank, I've been dying to know how long it would take me to get to at least gold. Would anyone care to help?
This is a misconception that I see a lot actually, with the way the ladder system works if you go on a win streak your MMR will rise rapidly. I would say that if someone in bronze suddenly starts winning every one of their games they will be in masters within 50-60 games.
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Alright so, I saw Trump do this TvP style that looked alot like the 2 Thor Push Janook made. What really made me want to steal this build was the fact that it should have a pretty easy time holding off a 4 warpgate build despite my poor micro(as long as you get a good surround on your thor with your SCVs repairing you should be gold, right?).
I went gas before rax, After 4 marines I got a reactor on my rax. Second gas after Factory. Helion before Techlab while waiting for the armory to finish.
At the 7 minute mark(where most 4warpgates hit afaik) I had:
+ Show Spoiler +
26 SCVs
1 Thor
10 Marines
1 Helion(Would have if I werent a dumbass and left it do die to the medium AI's Zeals ._.)
Second thor at 40%
+1 Vehicle Plating just started
Same game at 10 Minutes;
+ Show Spoiler +34 SCVs
3 Thor
22 Marines
+1 Vehicle Plating
250mm Strike Cannons
Expo at natural at 67%
+1 Vehicle Weapons just started
Just Begun to add second Rax/fact.
Gonna go try out that FE build and see what I can cook up.
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@Shifft- Thanks for the info. Too bad I can't get anything past a 5 winstreak
@Sonic - Even thought you probably won't run into this, a 4gate 1gas is going to kill you @6:00. I'll try this out later, but I'd get gateway units to tank/kill scvs, and ~2 imms to take care of your thor. Perhaps a sentry to hold off the marines?
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EPT
