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If anyone has been following SC2Casts and watched HuK's recent high rated games, first vs. DongraeguProS, and then vs. Nestea (where he doesn't get to fully execute his strategy) you might have noticed the new way he plays PvZ. Watching is always worth more than telling, so here is the game: http://sc2casts.com/cast2223-Huk-vs-DongraeguProS-1-Game-Battle.net-Starcraft-Game-Ladder
I also IMPLORE you to watch the nestea game or the day9 analysis near the bottom of this post to see the viability of forge first, even without scouting a hatch first.
For anyone who is "at work" or simply to lazy/busy to watch the game, here is a summary of the strategy.
For most of the best PvZ players, denying the zerg natural is an integral part of play, whether it be incontrol harrassing with a probe until being forced to throw down a pylon, or something else, it is something that almost needs to be done to retain a small advantage in the beginning of the game. HuK (Or maybe MC, who has been mentoring HuK to his recent KR ladder greatness) has evolved a (new?) or at least slightly unique way of doing it that slows down the expansion more than most methods, and costs the zerg way more money. It is an adaptation of the cannon contain to accomadate the new patch, while still offering lots of forgiveness and flexibility.
Behold: The forge first, Defense/Deny expansion opening (for lack of a better name).
My build order for it?
9 pylon
Scout
12 forge (variable based on scouting information, may need to go down earlier with a complete wall to nullify a six-pool, may want it to go down at 14 or 15 if they are going for a 15 hatch)
YOU MAY WANT TO REPLACE THIS WITH A GATEWAY AND REMOVE THE GATEWAY BELOW IF THEY ARE GOING POOL FIRST! Many people have stated this in the thread, and this is an example of the reactionary oGsMC PvZ style, detailed analysis http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4585419/. The rest of this post will be dealing with the forge first variant.
14 gateway (again variable, time with the forge, about 2-3 supply after while chronoboosting probes)
16 pylon
Cyber core after the gateway.
All the while, be keeping an eye on their expansion/pool timing, if they are going for pool first, go the the expo, and wait for the drone.
As soon as the drone starts building the hatch, it will lose vision, make sure there are no overlords around. If there are, get far out of vision range.
Build a pylon. Go back to your base and macro while this is going on. After the pylon finishes you are going to want to build the cannons exactly when the hatch is 60 percent done, or slightly after. Build two right within hatchery range, ideally blocking the pylon from zerglings, then leave.
You should have been macroing during this time.
You have now gained a huuugee advantage, as this slows down their expansion 100 seconds (game time) more than any normal pylon block, and allows you MANY possible options.
From here, you have a huge variety of options. If they opt not to destroy the pylon there and go for an expand somewhere else, you can go to a 3 or four gate pressure build. If they do, they have served their purpose. If they go for a one-base all-in (keep the cannon building probe at the attack lane or on a xel-naga) build cannons. You can do a fast expand from here with cannons, and go for stargate, or even go for a standard 6 gate timing push, as their mutas won't be able to go up with only 1 base most of the time. All robo builds are quite safe as well, and you have access to upgrades, and can protect any wanted expansions with cannons.
It is also in defiance of the gateway heavy collosus, forge expand, or 6 gate push metagame, as it is a modified (evolved if you will) version of the cannon contain before the patch.
So there you have HuK's PvZ, what has become the staple of my play because it is so flexible, if you succeed, and so forgiving if you fail (cannon expand, late 6 gate, fast collosi with cannons for defense).
Edit: I have been getting a lot of comments about how this is purely reactionary play, and though it may be a good reaction, it is safe to open with as well. Consider this game, and how HuK transitions out of it. (first minutes are important to this discussion, after that, it is simply an awesome game) http://sc2casts.com/cast2124-Huk-vs-NesTea-1-Game-Battle.net-Starcraft-Game-Ladder
Detailed Day9 analysis of this game found here http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4633439/
EDIT EDIT: People have been talking about two things in this thread:
1. This is not new: I would kind of agree, however, it is different than what we've seen in the past. Though cannons behind expos have been shown, this is the first player who does it standard. It is a variation (to counteract the new patch) of the cannon contain build, except with slightly less reward. Also, this post was mainly made to highlight viabiility of forge first (see the NesTea game above), how building placement can make a big difference, and showcase the flexibility and forgiveness of this opener.
It's also to introduce it to people who don't watch streams or things like that
2. Overlords stop this cold. Overlords do make this a lot harder, however, lots of times, zerg players will have their overlord leave to your base once the expo goes down. Additionally, if the overlord is slightly skewed, and even if it is not, there are a few cannon placements on most maps that they cannot see. (Most notable is the Gap behind the gas on shakuras.)
Enjoy and Discuss! GL and HF!
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One thing to note on your build order: there is no chance of you putting down a forge on 10 after scouting a 6 pool or anything with a 9 pylon scout. You would have to pre-emptively put down a forge on 10 before you scouted his base or for some reason wait at 10 supply until you've scouted his base.
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Ok thanks, since I've only been playing with it for about 2-3 days, I haven't actually tested it with a six-pool, I'll just revise it to "earlier" and mention a complete wallin to save time! I'm only platinum, so feel free to offer whatever insight about build-order inneficiencies that you see (or problems with the viability of the build itself)! Thanks!
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Nice little tweak on a cannon contain and shows the value of changing the placement of buildings.
How do you deal with an expo after lings have hunted down the scouting probe? Or after the pylon starts to build? The drone sent to build an expo will have a chance at least of seeing the probe still lurking in the area - if he sees it then the lings will just kill it. Genuinely curious as to what you/HuK does about that - hang back and keep checking? Has it not been a problem?
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yeah you'd die to a 6 pool but that's ok, it just means you can't do it on 2 player maps. this should be fine on a 4 player map.
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@Sanctimonious: You have too make it look like you are doing the normal Protoss way of denying a zerg expansion, being annoying with the probe. Once you "leave the area", most zerg players won't bother with the lings to kill the probe. Only if the lings come first to scout the area is this build in trouble, and even then most zergs will retreat the zerglings to scouting positions after they've put down the expansion. Again, its a very forgiving build, and transition into a fast nexus is entirely plausible if something like that does happen. (Based on what I've experienced, remember, I'm Platinum, people aren't as smart here, haha)
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i'm pretty sure he just masses probes while scouting and if he sees a pool he gets a gate and if he sees an early hatch he gets a forge....
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@Azide, Well again, variable. As I said in my previous post, It is quite viable to continue with the forge even if you scout a pool first, as most zergs feel safe once they put down the expo. The pool isn't a threat to your wallin, especially if you deem cannons necessary, and is only a threat to the cannon placement if the zerg is extremely proactive with scouting or has REALLY good overlord placement.
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NP Tofu, me too  There's nothing wrong with taking your time to come up the ranks until you're good and ready.
That makes sense, though I guess as time passes and this becomes more common (if it does) it'll be standard for zerg to hunt down that lil' probe and butcher him, poor little guy.
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Lol are you serious immortal??
Dude, the only reason he put a forge down is because the zerg hatch first. There is no way stopping the cannon going up if you hatch first as zerg!
This is no way a new build order or an innovative way of playing. It's just a reaction to 14/15 hatch!
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how is this any different from cannon rushing a hatch first build.... I've been doing it for months..
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Huk does this? Well I guess I'll watch the replay, but it seems rather cheesey. Whether or not it works often is another point (apparently it does, which I'm not surprised by). But if the zerg scouts it they can just take out the pylon/2cannons. How far would this put you behind?
Basically it seems risky to me.
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@Sanctimonius That will be a sad day for mr. probey... For now though, it doesnt seem to be prominent in the metagame I've seen, which seems to still revolve very heavily around collosi, 6 gate timing pushes. Noone expects the old metagame tactic of a modified cannon contain
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@Againstsmurf It is less cheesy, and sets you up for a nice late game.
@Yoshi
No. You can cancel the cannons and be only about 150 minerals behind, and simply set up a fast expansion of your own with cannons. Again, the main strength of this build is its flexibility. Also, 2 cannons aren't easy to take out, especially if they are by the pylon so neither they nor the pylon can be surrounded.
@Buruguduy
If you watch his game vs. Nestea (Highest ranked game of the month on SC2Casts) he throws down the forge first as well even before scouting. Once he gets scouted and the rush fails, he quickly transitions, using the forge for upgrades, and possibly base defense if I remember correctly. It is a solid opening even if you don't scout the hatch.
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I've been doing this for a couple of weeks now. First got the idea when I was randomly watching streams and noticed HuK doing it on his stream. It really is quite adaptable.
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I've been playing kind of like this a lot myself ever since watching a lot of HuK's stream, a day9 daily of MC vs Ret where he played like this, and a KiwiKaki vs Machine game where he opened this way. However on some maps the geometry of the natural makes it annoying to fast expand if you want to go that route, so I go for the incontrol 3 gate sentry expand style instead. Do you play like this on every map? If not, on which maps do you play differently?
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If he sees hatch first, he goes forge, if he sees pool, he goes gateway. Its smart but I don't think its "innovative" or anything like that.
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@Aragos, thanks! This isn't mine, just a writeup for people who can't watch and lurk/post on TL.
@jnkw and onymous: Cool, sounds like people found out before me! Just a writeup for the no0bs who don't watch streams out there haha. More specifically at onymous, I normally go for a 3 gate push after I deny their expansion to deny any expansions put down elsewhere or to pressure the one that they've built after destroying my cannons. However, Xel'naga is a pain to do it on, because overlords have vision over lots of pylon placements, but maps like blistering and shakuras have nice pockets to put down your pylon. I normally go for a 3 gate expand style on those maps where good overlord placement ruins this.
@Fearthefro Again, watch the opening minutes of the HuK Vs. Nestea game I mentioned in an above post. It doesn't have to be a complete reaction to scouting, although it can be more informed that way. HuK without scouting, still opens forge because of how safe it is, but then transitions out once it fails. It is also more of an innovation in building placement (it used to be at the ramp, it is now near the natural unscouted), rather than build order. The strength is flexibility, and the game was a good example for lower level players as well. Maybe it is not an innovation in style, just an evolution of the cannon contain. In fact, I like that phrasing a lot better.
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ImmortalTofu, is it possible HuKs new style is player dependent? Sure he doesn't scout, but maybe he is throwing down a forge against players he knows go hatch first often? I'm really interested to know if forge first is a viable build no matter what.
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EPT
