|
If anyone has been following SC2Casts and watched HuK's recent high rated games, first vs. DongraeguProS, and then vs. Nestea (where he doesn't get to fully execute his strategy) you might have noticed the new way he plays PvZ. Watching is always worth more than telling, so here is the game: http://sc2casts.com/cast2223-Huk-vs-DongraeguProS-1-Game-Battle.net-Starcraft-Game-Ladder
I also IMPLORE you to watch the nestea game or the day9 analysis near the bottom of this post to see the viability of forge first, even without scouting a hatch first.
For anyone who is "at work" or simply to lazy/busy to watch the game, here is a summary of the strategy.
For most of the best PvZ players, denying the zerg natural is an integral part of play, whether it be incontrol harrassing with a probe until being forced to throw down a pylon, or something else, it is something that almost needs to be done to retain a small advantage in the beginning of the game. HuK (Or maybe MC, who has been mentoring HuK to his recent KR ladder greatness) has evolved a (new?) or at least slightly unique way of doing it that slows down the expansion more than most methods, and costs the zerg way more money. It is an adaptation of the cannon contain to accomadate the new patch, while still offering lots of forgiveness and flexibility.
Behold: The forge first, Defense/Deny expansion opening (for lack of a better name).
My build order for it?
9 pylon
Scout
12 forge (variable based on scouting information, may need to go down earlier with a complete wall to nullify a six-pool, may want it to go down at 14 or 15 if they are going for a 15 hatch)
YOU MAY WANT TO REPLACE THIS WITH A GATEWAY AND REMOVE THE GATEWAY BELOW IF THEY ARE GOING POOL FIRST! Many people have stated this in the thread, and this is an example of the reactionary oGsMC PvZ style, detailed analysis http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4585419/. The rest of this post will be dealing with the forge first variant.
14 gateway (again variable, time with the forge, about 2-3 supply after while chronoboosting probes)
16 pylon
Cyber core after the gateway.
All the while, be keeping an eye on their expansion/pool timing, if they are going for pool first, go the the expo, and wait for the drone.
As soon as the drone starts building the hatch, it will lose vision, make sure there are no overlords around. If there are, get far out of vision range.
Build a pylon. Go back to your base and macro while this is going on. After the pylon finishes you are going to want to build the cannons exactly when the hatch is 60 percent done, or slightly after. Build two right within hatchery range, ideally blocking the pylon from zerglings, then leave.
You should have been macroing during this time.
You have now gained a huuugee advantage, as this slows down their expansion 100 seconds (game time) more than any normal pylon block, and allows you MANY possible options.
From here, you have a huge variety of options. If they opt not to destroy the pylon there and go for an expand somewhere else, you can go to a 3 or four gate pressure build. If they do, they have served their purpose. If they go for a one-base all-in (keep the cannon building probe at the attack lane or on a xel-naga) build cannons. You can do a fast expand from here with cannons, and go for stargate, or even go for a standard 6 gate timing push, as their mutas won't be able to go up with only 1 base most of the time. All robo builds are quite safe as well, and you have access to upgrades, and can protect any wanted expansions with cannons.
It is also in defiance of the gateway heavy collosus, forge expand, or 6 gate push metagame, as it is a modified (evolved if you will) version of the cannon contain before the patch.
So there you have HuK's PvZ, what has become the staple of my play because it is so flexible, if you succeed, and so forgiving if you fail (cannon expand, late 6 gate, fast collosi with cannons for defense).
Edit: I have been getting a lot of comments about how this is purely reactionary play, and though it may be a good reaction, it is safe to open with as well. Consider this game, and how HuK transitions out of it. (first minutes are important to this discussion, after that, it is simply an awesome game) http://sc2casts.com/cast2124-Huk-vs-NesTea-1-Game-Battle.net-Starcraft-Game-Ladder
Detailed Day9 analysis of this game found here http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4633439/
EDIT EDIT: People have been talking about two things in this thread:
1. This is not new: I would kind of agree, however, it is different than what we've seen in the past. Though cannons behind expos have been shown, this is the first player who does it standard. It is a variation (to counteract the new patch) of the cannon contain build, except with slightly less reward. Also, this post was mainly made to highlight viabiility of forge first (see the NesTea game above), how building placement can make a big difference, and showcase the flexibility and forgiveness of this opener.
It's also to introduce it to people who don't watch streams or things like that
2. Overlords stop this cold. Overlords do make this a lot harder, however, lots of times, zerg players will have their overlord leave to your base once the expo goes down. Additionally, if the overlord is slightly skewed, and even if it is not, there are a few cannon placements on most maps that they cannot see. (Most notable is the Gap behind the gas on shakuras.)
Enjoy and Discuss! GL and HF!
|
One thing to note on your build order: there is no chance of you putting down a forge on 10 after scouting a 6 pool or anything with a 9 pylon scout. You would have to pre-emptively put down a forge on 10 before you scouted his base or for some reason wait at 10 supply until you've scouted his base.
|
Ok thanks, since I've only been playing with it for about 2-3 days, I haven't actually tested it with a six-pool, I'll just revise it to "earlier" and mention a complete wallin to save time! I'm only platinum, so feel free to offer whatever insight about build-order inneficiencies that you see (or problems with the viability of the build itself)! Thanks!
|
Nice little tweak on a cannon contain and shows the value of changing the placement of buildings.
How do you deal with an expo after lings have hunted down the scouting probe? Or after the pylon starts to build? The drone sent to build an expo will have a chance at least of seeing the probe still lurking in the area - if he sees it then the lings will just kill it. Genuinely curious as to what you/HuK does about that - hang back and keep checking? Has it not been a problem?
|
yeah you'd die to a 6 pool but that's ok, it just means you can't do it on 2 player maps. this should be fine on a 4 player map.
|
@Sanctimonious: You have too make it look like you are doing the normal Protoss way of denying a zerg expansion, being annoying with the probe. Once you "leave the area", most zerg players won't bother with the lings to kill the probe. Only if the lings come first to scout the area is this build in trouble, and even then most zergs will retreat the zerglings to scouting positions after they've put down the expansion. Again, its a very forgiving build, and transition into a fast nexus is entirely plausible if something like that does happen. (Based on what I've experienced, remember, I'm Platinum, people aren't as smart here, haha)
|
i'm pretty sure he just masses probes while scouting and if he sees a pool he gets a gate and if he sees an early hatch he gets a forge....
|
@Azide, Well again, variable. As I said in my previous post, It is quite viable to continue with the forge even if you scout a pool first, as most zergs feel safe once they put down the expo. The pool isn't a threat to your wallin, especially if you deem cannons necessary, and is only a threat to the cannon placement if the zerg is extremely proactive with scouting or has REALLY good overlord placement.
|
NP Tofu, me too  There's nothing wrong with taking your time to come up the ranks until you're good and ready.
That makes sense, though I guess as time passes and this becomes more common (if it does) it'll be standard for zerg to hunt down that lil' probe and butcher him, poor little guy.
|
|
|
Lol are you serious immortal??
Dude, the only reason he put a forge down is because the zerg hatch first. There is no way stopping the cannon going up if you hatch first as zerg!
This is no way a new build order or an innovative way of playing. It's just a reaction to 14/15 hatch!
|
how is this any different from cannon rushing a hatch first build.... I've been doing it for months..
|
Huk does this? Well I guess I'll watch the replay, but it seems rather cheesey. Whether or not it works often is another point (apparently it does, which I'm not surprised by). But if the zerg scouts it they can just take out the pylon/2cannons. How far would this put you behind?
Basically it seems risky to me.
|
@Sanctimonius That will be a sad day for mr. probey... For now though, it doesnt seem to be prominent in the metagame I've seen, which seems to still revolve very heavily around collosi, 6 gate timing pushes. Noone expects the old metagame tactic of a modified cannon contain
|
@Againstsmurf It is less cheesy, and sets you up for a nice late game.
@Yoshi
No. You can cancel the cannons and be only about 150 minerals behind, and simply set up a fast expansion of your own with cannons. Again, the main strength of this build is its flexibility. Also, 2 cannons aren't easy to take out, especially if they are by the pylon so neither they nor the pylon can be surrounded.
@Buruguduy
If you watch his game vs. Nestea (Highest ranked game of the month on SC2Casts) he throws down the forge first as well even before scouting. Once he gets scouted and the rush fails, he quickly transitions, using the forge for upgrades, and possibly base defense if I remember correctly. It is a solid opening even if you don't scout the hatch.
|
I've been doing this for a couple of weeks now. First got the idea when I was randomly watching streams and noticed HuK doing it on his stream. It really is quite adaptable.
|
I've been playing kind of like this a lot myself ever since watching a lot of HuK's stream, a day9 daily of MC vs Ret where he played like this, and a KiwiKaki vs Machine game where he opened this way. However on some maps the geometry of the natural makes it annoying to fast expand if you want to go that route, so I go for the incontrol 3 gate sentry expand style instead. Do you play like this on every map? If not, on which maps do you play differently?
|
If he sees hatch first, he goes forge, if he sees pool, he goes gateway. Its smart but I don't think its "innovative" or anything like that.
|
@Aragos, thanks! This isn't mine, just a writeup for people who can't watch and lurk/post on TL.
@jnkw and onymous: Cool, sounds like people found out before me! Just a writeup for the no0bs who don't watch streams out there haha. More specifically at onymous, I normally go for a 3 gate push after I deny their expansion to deny any expansions put down elsewhere or to pressure the one that they've built after destroying my cannons. However, Xel'naga is a pain to do it on, because overlords have vision over lots of pylon placements, but maps like blistering and shakuras have nice pockets to put down your pylon. I normally go for a 3 gate expand style on those maps where good overlord placement ruins this.
@Fearthefro Again, watch the opening minutes of the HuK Vs. Nestea game I mentioned in an above post. It doesn't have to be a complete reaction to scouting, although it can be more informed that way. HuK without scouting, still opens forge because of how safe it is, but then transitions out once it fails. It is also more of an innovation in building placement (it used to be at the ramp, it is now near the natural unscouted), rather than build order. The strength is flexibility, and the game was a good example for lower level players as well. Maybe it is not an innovation in style, just an evolution of the cannon contain. In fact, I like that phrasing a lot better.
|
ImmortalTofu, is it possible HuKs new style is player dependent? Sure he doesn't scout, but maybe he is throwing down a forge against players he knows go hatch first often? I'm really interested to know if forge first is a viable build no matter what.
|
On February 09 2011 15:42 [Atomic]Peace wrote:
ImmortalTofu, is it possible HuKs new style is player dependent? Sure he doesn't scout, but maybe he is throwing down a forge against players he knows go hatch first often? I'm really interested to know if forge first is a viable build no matter what.
If they go pool first then you just expo. Check out the day9 daily of MC vs Ret on metalopolis in close positions. He opens with a 14 forge, Ret goes pool first also at 14, so he just expos instead of any cannon rush shenanigans. Against anything but a roach rush (for me, at least) forge first is really solid. But you can usually tell that a roach rush is coming by the pool timing. If they've left the pool to 14 or so then you're probably ok.
|
@Peace Well from replay, ProS seems to be excited about playing HuK, so I don't think that they play often, and Nestea is probably only a rare run-in on the ladder, and yet he opened up forge first both times. Once, the deny worked, once, it didn't, but in the second game (Nestea), even with the forge, he simply transitioned out, and had a more easily defended second base to boot. It also is great if you deny the expo and the zerg decides to go all-in, as you have cannons. I think it is very viable.
|
|
|
Also, the slightly modified, more informed oGsMC version showcased in the daily of MC versus Ret is extremely viable as well, although this thread is more about proving the viability of forge-first and the variant on cannon contain.
|
On February 09 2011 15:52 Asparagus wrote:
rofl Huk's resorting to cheesing zerg now? Crazy, he might as well switch to terran since he's been horrible and never even made any noise whatsoever in GSL or progaming recently.
Watch the games before you make a comment on that, it is cheese in the same way building a pylon to delay an expansion is cheese. And being 6 and 7th on the KR ladder is hardly horrible. That means he's consistently good enough to beat some of the best players on the ladder, with TWO ACCOUNTS, standing neck and neck, not just maintaining high in one. In fact, if he focused on one account, he could probably 3 or 4. BTW (This is a TL forum... HuK is part of TL I would think twice about flaming him, and thanks for bringing balance of terran into a very nice discussion of strategy).
Edit: just looked at your post history. All 35 of your posts are trash, either whining about terran, toss, laughing about toss who need help with zerg, insulting high level players, and talking about BM after losing streams. Hope your better than this in real life, cus I don't know anyone who'd wanna hang out with you.
|
On February 09 2011 15:52 Asparagus wrote:
rofl Huk's resorting to cheesing zerg now? Crazy, he might as well switch to terran since he's been horrible and never even made any noise whatsoever in GSL or progaming recently.
People like you make me wish it was April because then I would have the report button. ><
|
As I'm sure at least someone above has brought up, this is an old strategy that has been around for a while. I seem to remember seeing it more often in US/EU events rather than the GSL, but it's definitely old.
|
There is only a report button in April??? And agreed totally, darn... Anyway, let's not feed the troll. Thanks for all the compliments and insights so far guys! I'll give a link to the oGsMC daily and sum that up while I'm at it tomorrow morning... I'm tirrrreeedddd... ha, i'll stay up as long as possible to keep your questions answered. Keep em coming!
|
On February 09 2011 15:59 Ryalnos wrote:
As I'm sure at least someone above has brought up, this is an old strategy that has been around for a while. I seem to remember seeing it more often in US/EU events rather than the GSL, but it's definitely old.
Hmm... I've seen it, but this is the most solid way to pull it off I've seen so far... can you give me a link to a game or a recollection in which you've seen it? Also, I searched, and I found nothing about the modified cannon contain after the patch, and so decided to post this. In any case, in the current metagame, I feel it is a strong opener. Also, you are the first to mention it, hah.
|
So basically the same thing that Genius did vs Idra? Except without the fail get rolled by roaches part? Definitely viable, why most don't try to open hatch first vs Toss, me personally I always send an ovvie above my hatch if I hatch first to spot for such shenanigans as cannons or bunkers, but in that instance i pull drones, he cancels, and I've lost mining time, so really a strong build.
|
On February 09 2011 16:01 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 15:59 Ryalnos wrote:
As I'm sure at least someone above has brought up, this is an old strategy that has been around for a while. I seem to remember seeing it more often in US/EU events rather than the GSL, but it's definitely old. Hmm... I've seen it, but this is the most solid way to pull it off I've seen so far... can you give me a link to a game or a recollection in which you've seen it? Also, I searched, and I found nothing about the modified cannon contain after the patch, and so decided to post this. In any case, in the current metagame, I feel it is a strong opener. Also, you are the first to mention it, hah.
I think previously this kind of opening tended to revolve around pylon blocking the ramp. And because that was such a strong play, what you did afterwards almost didn't even matter, so it never seemed like these openings got developed to the extent that they are now. So while technically yes the opening has been around for a long time, it wasn't really the same.
|
@onymous thanks for clarifying.
@ultramus You might wanna be a bit more proactive with that ovie in the future, patrolling it around the edge of the building hatch, as there are places that can't be scouted by a stationary ovie on some maps. Also, if I didnt' see that game, but if it had to do with building pylons next to people's bases, it was probably pretty similar.
|
forge was a response to the scouted late pool or late gas, it's not just some blind cheese
the real interesting part of that game was not how he got a huge advantage, it was how he made mass gateway units in the mid-lategame look good
edit: in the DongraeguProS game
|
I haven't watched Huk's stream lately, but back when I did watch Huk's stream (around the time he had a huge thing for Kpop), him cannoning a Zerg seemed pretty damn standard. so I'm not quite sure if it is really a new style for Huk.
anyways, some Zergs like Morrow always opt for extremely safe openings against Protoss and have Zerglings out before putting down a hatchery, but if a Protoss really wants to cannon a Zerg expo they can still usually get it done with minerals and pylons as walls around at least 1 cannon.
|
|
|
|
|
On February 09 2011 15:06 Azide wrote:
i'm pretty sure he just masses probes while scouting and if he sees a pool he gets a gate and if he sees an early hatch he gets a forge....
He is absolutely right. On long maps huk just scouts while making probes (sometimes getting up to 16 supply waiting for the hatch). Huk himself said he scouts for hatch first. If he does then they get cannoned in the face. Other than that he just does his standard 3gate sentry expand. Huk will never open forge if he sees pool first. There is no reason to unless you are going for a forge FE. If so then that is a different story.
|
This build looks interesting from a zergs pov but what if the serf goes guitars a reach build because it means you have expanded due to scouting the spawning pool. Plus your probe should die before the roach warren is scouted. Nevertheless it looks like a very well thought out build especially for a 14 hatch great delay time.
|
HuK ? I have been facing this type of contain since wayyyy before the patch change.
I'm not sure HuK is the first to have done that but it's old, like 2010 old.
|
On February 09 2011 14:55 KingofGods wrote:
One thing to note on your build order: there is no chance of you putting down a forge on 10 after scouting a 6 pool or anything with a 9 pylon scout. You would have to pre-emptively put down a forge on 10 before you scouted his base or for some reason wait at 10 supply until you've scouted his base.
12 forge will stop 6 pool on most maps. SoW it's tight, but if you drop it right @ 12 (if you sent a pylon) exactly when you scout it with your 9 pylon probe you should be ok (but they will probably break down your wall so you will have to make another "layer").
|
I really dont see how this is new, protoss have been hiding cannons behind mineral lines or somewhere out of sight since the dawn of starcraft -.-
Its just up to the zerg player to see your forge with a drone scout or just have an overlord over his hatchery and to not let you do it..
|
this isnt new and it doesnt belong to huk. this is called reacting to scouting information and cannons are probably the most common way for protoss to hurt zerg who hatch first. sorry you havent been paying attention until now!
I wouldn't try to look at this as a build order but rather just note what huk sees and how he reacts to it. If you forge first and dont expand vs a pool first zerg, you are setting yourself really far behind unless you are going for a 1 base allin with a +1 timing attack
|
well the only important information is that, you build your canons timed so that you can cancel your Canons too if he cancels too.
or you would have wasted money of 2 Gateways into useless canons.
|
I'd like to try something like this, but I just don't trust my scouting of Zerg. So people are saying that you will react to a 16 Hatch by going Forge first. Right. Does that mean you drop your Forge when he drops his Hatch? Or would you have to drop it before? And if you had to drop it before, how would you know for sure that he is going to Hatch? I mean, so if I get to 14 supply and I see no buildings, throw down a Forge? And then he drops a Pool and Gas? Obviously I'll cancel the Forge and get a Gateway, but that still does not help me really know what's what with Zerg.
Totally OT now but how do you tell the difference between a Speedling expand and a Roach Rush. I normally hide my Probe and suicide it in to try see a Warren but is there a way to tell with the initial build timings?
|
HuK used to do this a lot on his stream, but it like didn't even make sense how well it worked. He would drop the first pylon in plain view of the Z and still get his fucking cannons up every single time.
|
On February 09 2011 18:15 Shifft wrote:
HuK used to do this a lot on his stream, but it like didn't even make sense how well it worked. He would drop the first pylon in plain view of the Z and still get his fucking cannons up every single time.
Did the Z hatch before pool? if yes, the canon will go up no matter what
|
|
|
On February 09 2011 16:47 FloWoIF wrote:
This build looks interesting from a zergs pov but what if the serf goes guitars a reach build because it means you have expanded due to scouting the spawning pool. Plus your probe should die before the roach warren is scouted. Nevertheless it looks like a very well thought out build especially for a 14 hatch great delay time.
What??
|
Huk using cannons!!?!?!?!?!? wow never seen that before.
Its not a new pvz style and its not even new for huk. It is a very common strat.
Also when you say it slows down hatch by 100 seconds and is much better than the pylon block but now its costing you 400 minerals instead of 100 for a bit extra time maybe even less if thye dont even cancel at all.
Its only effective if the cannons finish or they cancel the hatch but the zerg can probably stop both from happening
|
On February 09 2011 18:15 Shifft wrote:
HuK used to do this a lot on his stream, but it like didn't even make sense how well it worked. He would drop the first pylon in plain view of the Z and still get his fucking cannons up every single time.
Having a second probe to either distract drones pulled off the line or allow pylons/cannons to be built in two places at once helps with this strategy a ton. Might be stating the obvious, but clicking probes to mineral patches is an absolute MUST since the zerg will obviously be looking to surround trap the probes.
|
I don't get it. Why isn't the zerg scouting for the probe as soon as he sees the forge first?
Forge first only means two things:
- Forge expo
- cannon rush
Forge expo is usually easy to tell from the positioning of the structures. If that's not obvious you should hurry and find that scouting probe.
I usually scout quite early (drone arrives when the first building is warping), so it gives time to prepare.
My conclusion right now is that it's not a solid "build" at all.
Besides I'm not sure it's "standard" even for Huk. I noticed that while laddering he sometimes release some steam by cannon rushing / 4 warpgating / cheesing in any sort.
|
Huk waits till 15-16 supply so he can react exactly to what the zerg is doing. He doesn't blindly go for a cannon block.
|
Its not a new build lol !
I use this build since 2 or 3 months Oo
I saw HuK on his stream doing that 1 month ago (on LT) but i can assure you that's not a new build or a "huk" build.
|
I think this is a risky strat with little payoff for the Protoss.
If all goes well you cancel the hatchery but you as protoss pay quite a hefy cost:
- 1 or 2 cannons you cancel directly after hatch cancel = 75 minerals
- the cannon and pylon you leave up = 250 minerals
- a cannon you are FORCED to make at home for fear of zerg pushing back directly = 150 minerals
- a 2nd probe send over to secure the cannons getting up = at least 50 minerals.
Total about 525 minerals
The proper response to this as zerg imo is:
- build a 3rd hatchery at another expo after your pool straight away when the cannons are being put down (if you are sure you are not able to take them down.).
- cancel the hatch just before it's about to finish, making sure to let the toss get at least 1 cannon up.
- get the 2nd queen quite fast at your main and start spreading creep towards your expansion, which will be further away obviously.
- go relatively fast roaches afterwards, toss goes very late gas and techs late with a forge first opening so they will have problems countering roaches early on. Roaches are also the only safe tier 1 option against a 4 gate +1 attack push, against which lings die hard. If they chose to cannon expand after their opening roaches will also be the best way to threaten them into making more cannons. Roaches are also best to take out the cannon and pylon he left behind at your natural, if you do so with lings you are bound to lose at least 4 lings whereas with 4 roaches it is easy to take out the cannon without losses.
As long as you get another base up quickly (without having that cannoned as well) you should be in a good spot, as protoss is invested more in canceling your hatch then you lost.
|
This isn't a build order, it's just getting a forge if you see a zerg going hatch first and cannoning him
|
Which Zerg is dumb enough going Hatch first theese days? I mean rly if i see a zerg going hatch first i add a forge get till 16 probes build denn a Zaelot + 2-3 Cannons in Front (not in Sight!) of his Hatch and kills it with zaelot+ Cannons just had 1! Game which the Zerg could defend it the other Games i allways won with that.
|
Russian Federation266 Posts
The OP has too many strategic mistkes to point them all out.
For example:
All the while, be keeping an eye on their expansion/pool timing, if they are going for pool first, go the the expo, and wait for the drone.
As soon as the drone starts building the hatch, it will lose vision, make sure there are no overlords around. If there are, get far out of vision range.
This is bullshit you can not cannon rush a pool -> hatch. As seen it the video huk doesnt even try to do it.
|
You seriously think this is a new style? People have always been doing this...
|
Yeah, this is denying hatch first build and have nothing to do with pool->hatch.
|
Removed "new" from the title. It doesn't really warrant that but it's definitely his style to do cannon stuff.
|
On February 09 2011 19:15 eth3n wrote:
drones
Drones what? Do you know how many drones it takes to kill 1 building cannon, let alone 2? 4 each. That means you are not mining So unless you can stop the cannons from being placed, you will lose that hatch unless your pool timing is just right.
|
On February 09 2011 15:06 Azide wrote:
i'm pretty sure he just masses probes while scouting and if he sees a pool he gets a gate and if he sees an early hatch he gets a forge....
Yeah, this is what he does 90% of pvz... People find it weird since he goes 15 gate/15 forge usually since he's waiting on intel. I can't watch video right now but I guarantee that's what he does.
Vs the 14/15 hatch he gets the forge, masses cannons, and right as they're about to die he cancels and keeps making more. Until the Zerg cancels hatchery, or they will try to fight and Zerg lose almost always.
|
I like it, if you go for a FE behind your forge on a pool first opening the zerg is basically all in. If he doesn't do damage your expo is up faster and he'll have a hard time catching up in drones without being weak to any kind of attack.
|
@Yoshi
No. You can cancel the cannons and be only about 150 minerals behind, and simply set up a fast expansion of your own with cannons. Again, the main strength of this build is its flexibility. Also, 2 cannons aren't easy to take out, especially if they are by the pylon so neither they nor the pylon can be surrounded.
Ok thanks for responding
|
Edited the OP to answer some of the comments made on page 3 and 4. And Nazgul modded my post! Proud day to have a post that gains enough attention to need a mod... Edit with oGsMC style and intel coming up.
|
On February 09 2011 16:47 FloWoIF wrote:
This build looks interesting from a zergs pov but what if the serf goes guitars a reach build because it means you have expanded due to scouting the spawning pool.
if the serf goes guitars, then make sure he learns your favorite songs
|
Not calling imbalance or anything but isnt PvZ the most broken matchup evar atm?
Well everyone is saying thats huks pvz is unstoppable and top zergs r qqing about zvp atm, JUST SAYIN, i play bw so it doesnt even matter
User was warned for this post
|
Mindflow? What does that have to do with this discussion? Just wondering. Oh, and if it is the most broken then ever, it is certainly not atm, just sayin
|
It's just a cannon rush, it is not?
|
On February 10 2011 12:23 lyAsakura wrote:
It's just a cannon rush, it is not?
Not at all. This strategy is to put cannons behind their expansion to delay it significantly and let you survive past the mid-game weakness of protoss. It is MUCH less all in, you only invest in a few or even just one cannon, and transitions out into almost any other kind of build, pretty fast expands, timing pushes, 2 base collosi, and many other strategies.
|
On February 10 2011 12:09 palanq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 16:47 FloWoIF wrote:
This build looks interesting from a zergs pov but what if the serf goes guitars a reach build because it means you have expanded due to scouting the spawning pool. if the serf goes guitars, then make sure he learns your favorite songs
In that situation, as the zerg, I like to go Free Bird on his ass, or maybe a little Thunderstruck with Ultras if I'm feeling frisky.
|
On February 10 2011 12:30 Eschaton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 12:09 palanq wrote:On February 09 2011 16:47 FloWoIF wrote:
This build looks interesting from a zergs pov but what if the serf goes guitars a reach build because it means you have expanded due to scouting the spawning pool. if the serf goes guitars, then make sure he learns your favorite songs In that situation, as the zerg, I like to go Free Bird on his ass, or maybe a little Thunderstruck with Ultras if I'm feeling frisky.
To be honest... I'm more in favor of going for the famous hack a Dominion nuke facility somewhere on the planet using the technology I should be able to use to kill everything instantly, and launch a nuke at the guitar. The reach build will have a problem, without the guitar you know?
|
Ohh i see what you mean mindflow. Umm, yeah lategame protoss is unstoppable, and midgame is where zerg really shines. However, their midgame units of choice (mutas hydras (now a fragile but powerful tier two unit) ) which crush gateway opposition, gets rolled by a six gate timing push (a 2 base push that happens just as mutas and hydras are coming, and there is not enough of them to survive). If the zerg fears that push, he cannot go for his strong midgame harrassment with mutas or his strong (vs. gateway) hydra. Even if he can get them out without dying, zealots with charge (a more expensive, slightly less good version of BW zealot leg speed) will kill them, and collosi (laser splash damage dealer) will roast them due to their pitiful hp.
|
On February 10 2011 12:29 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 12:23 lyAsakura wrote:
It's just a cannon rush, it is not? Not at all. This strategy is to put cannons behind their expansion to delay it significantly and let you survive past the mid-game weakness of protoss. It is MUCH less all in, you only invest in a few or even just one cannon, and transitions out into almost any other kind of build, pretty fast expands, timing pushes, 2 base collosi, and many other strategies.
It is still a cannon rush, regardless of what comes afterwards, and a well made cannon rush is never all in.
|
If you'd like it to be that way. However, think of it more as a cannon contain, not a cannon RUSH per se.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
